Aug 23, 2011, 05:05 PM Gaftopher Nottingham Road South Africa/Bedford UK Joined Feb 2007 4,104 Posts What are your thoughts on why the lower and upper control surfaces are at angle of less than 90 degrees to each other? Maybe you commented and I missed it.
 Aug 23, 2011, 06:02 PM Registered User Joined May 2010 436 Posts Clocking the control surfaces: Gary, I've not address that one yet, so here's what I've observed. If you look at a circle you'll measure 360 degrees, if you divide 360 degrees by 4 you get 90 degrees. Okay now you can set the lower set of vanes at 90 degrees, opposite each other, next divide 360 degrees by 8 and you get 45 degrees. What does that tell us? That tells us that the sphere needs to be comprised of 8 sub-panels. Those sub-panel are made of styrene plastic and maybe carbon fibers. I'll call them ribs. The spoilers mount on the ribs also and we have 8 spoilers present on the craft. That is important too, since the more spoilers mounted the better the control, up to a point. That is, 8 spoilers are better than 6 spoilers. I guess 4 spoilers would work to some degree, but you get the idea. Okay we now know that the sphere is made up of 8 circular ribs, set 45 degrees apart. Now you want to mount the lower set of vanes at 90 degree from each other and the upper set of vanes at 90 degree from each other but not on the same ribs or should I say plain, just mount the upper set of vanes 45 degree to the right or left of the lower set of vanes. Why do this? My guess is to keep the vanes in clean undisturbed propeller wash and make the craft VERY strong. The patent application stressed this on several occasions. The vanes transmit stresses across the sphere, by using all 8 ribs to mount the vanes these stresses are spread over a larger area. This makes understanding the controls of the great interest to me, it is a bit of work to decipher how they function from looking at the one video that shows them moving very fast. I've watched that one about 30 or 40 times in stop frame and I'm not sure what to think. I can say that the top and lower vanes control yaw in hover, and that the upper and lower vanes can all move in a format that look like elevons plus one more axis. Well let me say they can all move with respect to what we might call roll, pitch, and yaw control, I can't sort it out any better that that right now. Maybe some other readers could look it over and fill in the blanks. I hope that helped, Kelly
 Aug 24, 2011, 08:51 AM Expat Japan Joined Apr 2010 3,293 Posts Ya, thats in line with what I was saying a few pages back. Additionaly, perhaps the 45 degree CS offset allows more stability with air hitting the craft sideways at odd angles, weather in a turn or from a cross wind. I'm also curious about the control mixing. Initialy I thought maybe rudder/elevator top, and a kind of dual V-Tail elevons on the 4 bottom CS set. And maybe a special corkscrew mix for fast spins. I'm guessing these guysa are using something liek a 3-axis KKK board? BTW, that bottom set of spoilers look like a simple thrust vector shroud. Do the top spoilers lock out at 90 degrees (level with prop / 90 degrees down)? I can read a bit of Japanese, but something like a patent application is too deep for me and I'd need to get someone to give me a hand.
 Aug 24, 2011, 04:54 PM Registered User centennial/aurora colorado Joined Mar 2008 1,432 Posts amazing amount of design in this craft, all i can say is wow
 Sep 02, 2011, 11:45 AM DIY Mania from Taiwan Taiwan Joined Aug 2011 2,139 Posts Just found this thread,and really learned a lot from you guys. especially COROCOPTER...... the drone attracted my attention 2 monthes ago and decided to make one based only on the video & couple pictures,frankly,it's a guess work... it took me 10 days to complte the model one,good flying but the toy was too heavy and overheated of the motors were discovered, so I'm working on my model two and of course put the ideas learned from this thread to it. video of the model one...."somebody pls help if vid didn't work" http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbMwWg-V8gs Best regards to you all Sam
Sep 02, 2011, 12:22 PM
Gaftopher
Joined Feb 2007
4,104 Posts
Excellent job much better than mine well done

 PICT0178 (0 min 30 sec)
Sep 02, 2011, 05:50 PM
Registered User
Joined May 2010
436 Posts
Propeller Spoilers in Acton:

I made a simple test setup to show how the spoilers work. I used a sheet of plain paper and some tape to construct the spoiler.

Once the spoiler is drawn into the horizontal position it tends to hold that position until the power is substantially reduced.

 Japanese Ball Drone Propeller Spoilers (1 min 26 sec)
Last edited by corocopter; Sep 02, 2011 at 05:57 PM.
 Sep 02, 2011, 05:56 PM Registered User Joined May 2010 436 Posts Nice work Samwei Samwei, That's a nice sphere you built. It seems to be very stable. Can you please give us some details on your gyros and how you configured the control system vanes. I'm looking forward to seeing your new version. I'm happy to hear that some of my comments were useful to you. Kelly
Sep 04, 2011, 07:02 AM
DIY Mania from Taiwan
Taiwan
Joined Aug 2011
2,139 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Gary Mortimer Excellent job much better than mine well done http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbMwWg-V8gs
many thanks for the help
my ball drone is still far away from the Japaness one.
really like the music you put in your version 2 video,it made me feel like to dance...
Sam
Sep 04, 2011, 08:48 AM
DIY Mania from Taiwan
Taiwan
Joined Aug 2011
2,139 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by corocopter Samwei, That's a nice sphere you built. It seems to be very stable. Can you please give us some details on your gyros and how you configured the control system vanes. I'm looking forward to seeing your new version. I'm happy to hear that some of my comments were useful to you. Kelly
Hello Kelly
I hope my Taiwaness English did not drive you crazy.....
3 gyros were installed in the ball
a cheap headlock gyro to deal with YAW
two Piezo gyros handling elevator and aileron seperately.
I started to build the ball by a homemade counter rotating motors
8 thin CF sheets to form the ball drone at 45 degree
I attached four 4mm CF rods on the upper 3/1 between motor & "ribs" to hod the motors in the upper center.
and attached another four 4mm CF rods on the lower 3/1 between bottom of the fuse and lower part "ribs"(sames "ribs" as upper part)
then set lower set of 5mm Depron 4 vanes at 90 degree from each other
under four 4mm CF rods
two 6 gram servos installed in 2 vanes that connected other 2 vanes by CF sheets glued for elevator & aileron functions.
a 5mm Depron "skirt" is glued outside the lower part control surfaces.
I then attached two 4mm CF rods between upper CF rods & equater for the upper contorl surfaces,of course on other "ribs"
I mounted the upper set of 5mm Depron 4 vanes at 45 degree to the lower
set of vanes and installed four 6 gram servos on the four vanes for YAW control.
a BEC is used.
the CG is located at 10mm below the center.
finally the ball is surrounded by a CF sheet on the equator for durability.
the upper contorl surfaces work indepently as well as the lower one.
the ball is quite strong during the testing period.
the stability is OK but I just hate to use the "skirt" because it create drag
during flight.
I tried to get rid of it one time but the stability became an issue,maybe the
"spoilers" is the key for it.
best regards
Sam
 Sep 04, 2011, 04:24 PM Registered User Joined May 2010 436 Posts Sam, Your English is excellent, I completely understand your explanation. The spoilers may help. It would be interesting to see what happens if you just add the spoilers to that ship. I have a couple of ideas that maybe of some help, gives these some thought and let me know what you think. You could reverse the control configuration of your current craft so that it is a canard. Move the elevator, and rudder to the upper surfaces/vanes and use just two servos. Setup the yaw control on the lower surfaces/vanes, but you only need two servo and two moving vanes for yaw control. I make these suggestions for these reasons. 1. You mentioned that removing the skirt upset the stability. 2. Moving the Yaw control to the lower surfaces will help to hold the center of pressure constant. Defecting a control surface has some affect on the CP. The less the defection the more stable the CP. Using only two vanes instead of 4 may help. I don't think yaw is the major problem. It appears to be more a pitch and roll problem. 3.The skirt appears to be a form of wing area as well as the internal wing area of the vanes/ladder area. Removing the skirt material reduces the wing area. 4. Maybe reversing the controls, making it a canard and using two less servos will lighten it and improve stability and performance. These would be simple modes you could perform to the existing craft. 5. Having the rudder and elevator closer to the propeller(s) improves there power (functions). You'll need to reduce the rates on the gyro perhaps? Then, if these suggestions help, I'd try adding spoilers. One other thought. A single large prop is more efficient that the two smaller props and one large prop may work better with the spoiler. These are just guesses on my part, maybe some of them may help? What do you think? Kelly
Sep 05, 2011, 01:08 AM
DIY Mania from Taiwan
Taiwan
Joined Aug 2011
2,139 Posts
the ball drone added some more fun to my retirement life.
here's another vid I shooted this AM w/o "skirt"
it swings on bottom side,or shall i say pitch & roll sides???
I can easily post vid locally but not in RCG.....
pls help to post this one again
 PICT0314 (0 min 37 sec)

best regards to all of you
Sam
Sep 05, 2011, 01:42 AM
DIY Mania from Taiwan
Taiwan
Joined Aug 2011
2,139 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by corocopter Sam, Your English is excellent, I completely understand your explanation. The spoilers may help. It would be interesting to see what happens if you just add the spoilers to that ship. I have a couple of ideas that maybe of some help, gives these some thought and let me know what you think. You could reverse the control configuration of your current craft so that it is a canard. Move the elevator, and rudder to the upper surfaces/vanes and use just two servos. Setup the yaw control on the lower surfaces/vanes, but you only need two servo and two moving vanes for yaw control. I make these suggestions for these reasons. 1. You mentioned that removing the skirt upset the stability. 2. Moving the Yaw control to the lower surfaces will help to hold the center of pressure constant. Defecting a control surface has some affect on the CP. The less the defection the more stable the CP. Using only two vanes instead of 4 may help. I don't think yaw is the major problem. It appears to be more a pitch and roll problem. 3.The skirt appears to be a form of wing area as well as the internal wing area of the vanes/ladder area. Removing the skirt material reduces the wing area. 4. Maybe reversing the controls, making it a canard and using two less servos will lighten it and improve stability and performance. These would be simple modes you could perform to the existing craft. 5. Having the rudder and elevator closer to the propeller(s) improves there power (functions). You'll need to reduce the rates on the gyro perhaps? Then, if these suggestions help, I'd try adding spoilers. One other thought. A single large prop is more efficient that the two smaller props and one large prop may work better with the spoiler. These are just guesses on my part, maybe some of them may help? What do you think? Kelly
Kelly
many thanks for the great comments
let me catch your paces again...
1.move elevator/rudder to upper control surfaces with 2 servos
2.move YAW to lower control surfaces but only with 2 servos & 2 vanes
3.no skirt but spoilers may help
4.reduce some rate on gyros.especially upper control surfaces gyros.
I'm willing to do the tests to see what benifits the ball and come back to you again.
one question: do i needed to mix upper & lower control surfaers?
BTW:could not speak well but i can read Japaness,any secific topic you need my hands?
best regards
Sam
 Sep 05, 2011, 03:35 AM DIY Mania from Taiwan Taiwan Joined Aug 2011 2,139 Posts hi guys FYI I just put a new thread in the foamie(scratchbuilt) column that under AIRCRAFT-ELECTRIC-AIRPLANES it's about my newly scratchbuilt flying swan just incase you guys interested. regards Sam