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Old Sep 17, 2011, 08:05 AM
DIY Mania from Taiwan
Taiwan
Joined Aug 2011
2,020 Posts
here's short vid on spoilers of Taiwan ball 1,FYI
best regards
Sam
PICT0326 (0 min 27 sec)
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Old Sep 17, 2011, 08:30 AM
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Spoilers:

Sam,

That looks great, but I believe I see a problem. You need to restrict the travel of the spoilers so that they can not swing outside of the cage of the sphere. When they are hanging downward and you held the sphere over on its side, the spoilers on the lower side dipped out of the cage/sphere body. They need to bump up against a stop so that they lock downward, otherwise they will swing backward and will not work, they will not create drag. Just wrap a the thread or a strip of carbon fiber around the sphere slight above the lower ends of the spoilers when they are hanging downward. Just something to catch the spoilers to limit their travel to 90 degrees downward angle.

I maybe wrong here since I could not see the downward spoilers very well, but I could not see any way for the spoilers to be restricted. Look at the photos of the Japaneses version, on the tip of their spoilers you'll see that they hit the edge of the sphere. If you need a sketch let me know.

Otherwise WOW it works very nice. I can't wait to see a test flight.
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Old Sep 17, 2011, 08:36 AM
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One other idea would be to copy the exact shape of the Japanese spoilers, and remove the spaces between the end of the spoilers is important. Your shape is not exactly correct. There should be very little space between the ends of the spoilers. This area should seal up to catch the most air possible and to create the most drag possible.

That shape will catch on the edge of your sphere and lock the spoiler too. Just take a look at those two photos I posted of the sphere on the previous page.

Otherwise an excellent experiement to prove the concept. I understand you're just testing, but I thought I add a bit of details.

Have fun,

Kelly
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Old Sep 17, 2011, 11:23 AM
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Feedback:

Sam,

How did the single motor/propeller work out, and did the yaw off-set work Okay? I'm very curious.

You're workmanship is very nice! I can see you put a great deal time in many details. I see a Blue Ribbon Award coming your way on Oct 2nd.

Kelly
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Old Sep 17, 2011, 12:35 PM
DIY Mania from Taiwan
Taiwan
Joined Aug 2011
2,020 Posts
Kelly:
many thanks for the nice words,it's all because I'm lucky enough to have a good instructor
1.locked the spoilers from floating outside of the sphere....done.
2.limited the space between end of spoilers...done
thanks to the canard configuration,Taiwan ball 1is now a real successful RC plane to me,good stabilITY & maneuverability,easy to go pitch/roll without busying on trimming TX,and I even noticed that the spoilers are a "plus" to the craft that help to eliminate "swings" in the air.
there still have couple minor issues:
1.wrong motor KV,it create heat.....
2.still needed to put a little time on better YAW offsetting.
pretty soon I'll do the outdoor test flihght.
I retired from DuPont 5 years ago,so I have no problem to spend as much time as I wanted.
BTW,Japaness designer maybe surprised what we have done so far if he happened to read this thread......
have a nice day
Sam
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Old Sep 17, 2011, 09:09 PM
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Hello Sam,

That's great news, I'm happy to hear it's stable, I'm also delighted to hear that the spoilers have the desired effect to dampen the oscillations.

I have a few questions that would be very helpful to me. I see a few challenges for us in the near future when you move outside to perform the high speed horizontal flight. These questions will help me sort out a few these details.

Item number 1: can you tell me what happens when you move the CG upwards and downwards to the stability of the craft. IE can you tell me how many millimeters you move the CG upwards and downwards and the affect of these movements?

Item number 2: can you tell me where the CG is located with relationship to the Meridian when the craft is in its most stable configuration?

Item number 3: can you give me a quick video of the top and bottom of the craft were the carbon rods come together. Can you hold the bottom of the craft up to the camera so I can see how much offset you have in the vanes?

Item number 4: can you give me a quick video of the craft in flight so that I can see the action of the spoilers as you move the sphere around the room? I don't know if your little motor can tolerate another test flight, but it would be very helpful to see the spoilers in action.

Sam, I sent you a private mail to RC groups, look up to the top right-hand corner of this page, click on your account and you can read the message.

Once again you have done wonderful work, this has been a joy for me to watch this project unfold, I hope the inventor in Japan is also pleased with our progress. Its only been 98 days since this posting was listed on RC groups. That's pretty good progress to partially reverse engineer such a complex device. I'd like to thank all the other forum members that posted a great deal of information, videos, and, comments. I’d especially like to thank New Guy for posting the Japanese patent.

I think we are headed for new challenges outdoors, we've only been able to solve the hovering flight mode, it's going to be interesting to see what happens when you tipped the craft over horizontal. I think we'll find that you will have to move the CG forward some what to achieve a good stable horizontal flight speed. Additionally I think we'll find that the need to trim the spoilers off to make them more sensitive to very fine pitching motions.

A quick movie's of the craft in flight will help me evaluate this spoiler modification.

One other complication has to do with wing area, the Japanese sphere has a substantial amount of nonmoving wing area forward of the control vanes on the aft section. It may be necessary to add this wing area to your craft for stable high-speed flight at a reasonable low power setting.

Hope to hear from you soon,

Kelly
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Last edited by corocopter; Sep 17, 2011 at 10:15 PM.
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Old Sep 18, 2011, 02:11 AM
DIY Mania from Taiwan
Taiwan
Joined Aug 2011
2,020 Posts

Kelly:
about the interesting questions...
1. I've used 3 diffrent batteries to test on CG,thus 1200/900/600 grams,each battery gave about 3-5mm diffrent CG,1200gram battery performs better on stability,while 600gram battery gave better maneuverability, but I must say they did'nt make much visible diffrences,I really don't know why....
2.10mm below meridiant,the craft get the best stability.
I needed to prepare the craft for 2 videos,it takes a little time.
best regards.
Sam
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Old Sep 18, 2011, 06:49 AM
DIY Mania from Taiwan
Taiwan
Joined Aug 2011
2,020 Posts
Kelly:
vid for item number 4.
have tried to fly the craft closer to camera for better observation.....
the spolers still have gaps,I'll try to rectify or redo later on.
best regards.
Sam
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Old Sep 18, 2011, 07:01 AM
DIY Mania from Taiwan
Taiwan
Joined Aug 2011
2,020 Posts
Kelly:
vid for item number 3
the upper vanes were offset at 2 degree while the lower vanes were at 8-9
degree.
8 CF sheets were tied with 2 wornout nylon gears on top & bottom seperately from my old heli,and CA glued.
forgot the topside,pls inform if needed.
have a nice day
Sam
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Old Sep 18, 2011, 11:51 AM
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Sam,

Thank you,

That was perfect data, I'll have feed back for you later today, mostly about how to fine tune the spoilers, which currently are not dropping downward in translational (sideways) flight.

Kelly
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Old Sep 18, 2011, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corocopter View Post
Nice Guy, POST # 109

I’m not sure I understand your question about the spoilers, so I’ll guess by giving a detailed description of how the spoiler react to the relative wind associated with the airflow entering the side of the propeller.

The spoilers are free floating. If you watch the videos you see the pilot picking up the craft and the spoilers dangle in various positions, some hang downward and others upward due to gravity and the angle that he happen to be holding the craft.

One other way to look at the matter is to explain they can swing not only downward, horizontal and upward within the sphere. They are captured by the outer edges of the spoilers. These outer edges of the spoilers strike the 8 ribs I mention in my last posting.

Keep in mind that if the sphere is resting on a table or floor with the motor turned off, all 8 of the spoilers will droop downward approximately 90 degrees. As you slowly add power the spoiler will gradually rise to the horizontal position. Now assume that you have used sufficient power to draw all 8 spoilers horizontal.

If you now pick up the craft in you hand holding it perfectly vertical then move it to the left you will notice that the spoilers on the left remain horizontal but the spoilers on the right side droop downward at a rate that is proportional to the rate you are move your hand/sphere to the left.

Now if you stop the motion of your hand/sphere all 8 spoilers will be drawn into the horizontal position waiting for your next movement. In flight the craft rotates around it CG, but for our illustration this help me describe what to expect when trying to describe the spoilers reactions. In any case whether it is held in your hand, or hovering and tilting about it’s center of gravity the relative airflow into the propeller disk will be disturbed.

Keep in mind these important facts (below) when dealing with these spoilers.

These facts apply to non-ducted, non-shrouded propeller as used on this sphere.

The airflow into the propeller disk enters from the front and the sides of the propeller. Or you could say air is drawn into the plain of rotation of the propeller as well as from in front of the propeller. Air enters both perpendicular and parallel to the plain of rotation of the propeller.

What we are interested in right how is the air that is flowing into the side of the propeller or plain of rotation. Or you could say the air that flows into the disk parallel to the rotation of the propeller. This is very important!

Most folks only think about the air entering the propeller from in front of the propellers plain of rotation not the side flow. The airflow coming into the side of the propeller is of little interest normally so it is natural to overlooks it value, but for the spoilers it is Critical!

This airflow into the side of the propeller is easily disturbed. When you move the craft held in your hand as mentioned above, the airflow on the left side continued to flow smoothly into the plain of rotation of the propeller thus it held the left hand spoiler horizontal. Now the airflow on the right side of the propeller plain of rotation is disturbed by the air entering from the left. This is an unbalanced in-rush of air. The air that was flowing into the propeller on the right is now disturbed, and directed downward into the propeller wash. At this point the spoiler on the right will no longer have the support from the side flow air and it will droop downward.

Other examples; if the craft was in a hover and you cut the power suddenly the craft will decend rapidly, the relative wind will be from the bottom of the craft, then all 8 spoilers would rise upward 90 degrees. Each spoiler responds to the local condition of the relative wind at any give moment of time. Or if you gas the throttle the craft will rise rapidly, the relatiive wind will be coming from above the craft and all 8 of the spoilers will droop downward 90 degrees. Or if you command a tilt to the right and it starts to translate (move) to the right, the left hand spoilers will droop, but the right hand spoilers will remain horizontal. This is completely automatic and happens very rapidly too.

One other thought to keep in your mind. All 8 spoilers will be held horizontal ONLY during hover or when motionless up against a wall. Any sideways motion (tilting) of the craft will droop the spoilers on the side opposite the inflow of the relative wind.

The spoiler placement is critical. If they are position too close the plain of rotation of the propeller they will not be droop fast enough to respond to very slight tilting of the craft. It they are placed too far away from the plain of rotation the spoilers will not be drawn into the horizontal position. This is the tricky part of setting up these spoilers. If you changed the pitch of the propeller, it most likely would also affect their performance and of course changing the diameter of the propeller would change their performance. It looks like you’d have to construct your craft, get it flying, then shape and distance the spoilers accordingly, then start moving the CG aft.
Sam,

Please read my post above, I noticed that the spoilers are not deploying downwards during your test flight. The spoilers are too long and or made of material that is to low in mass.

Once you have selected the correct motor/propeller combination you need to proceed with adjusting the spoilers. Currently the spoilers are not contributing to stabilizing the ship at this time, since they are being held in the horizontal position at all times and not deploying downwards to create a dampening effect.

To adjust the spoilers you need to add a group of weights that are all equal in size and mass, I would suggest purchasing several small packages of shirt buttons, perhaps the smaller size used on button down collars. You need to CA one button at a time to either the top or the bottom surface of each spoiler at a location that is central to the span of the spoilers and closest to the tip of the propeller. Then bring the motor up to speed for hover and see if you can get the spoilers to deploy downwards when you tilt the craft over to make a turn left or right etc. You will need to add buttons one at a time until you find the correct amount that will allow all eight spoilers to fly in the horizontal position during a steady hover, yet will deploy the appropriate spoiler when you tilt the craft. The more weight you add, the more easily the individual spoiler will deploy downward. Once you get this balancing correct it should improve your hovering stability, yet still allow the craft to fly high speeds since you should be able to raise the center gravity upwards to improve the maneuvered ability of the craft horizontal flight.

Your comments about the position of the CG, make sense, when the CG is low the craft is fairy stable in hover, as the CG is moved upwards the propeller, the maneuverability of the craft increases. Hopefully we will find a point where you can raise the CG high enough for a stable high-speed flight and with the use of the spoilers still be able have a nice stable hover.

If you get those spoilers working correctly would you please make another quick video?

I was excited to see all eight spoilers pull upward, and I realize that you have a substantial amount of inflow, perhaps more than required for your current spoilers.

I hate to have you remove any of the length from the spoilers, because the longer spoiler will give us more dampening force than the shorter spoiler. In my opinion I think the weights are the way to go first, if that doesn't work then you may have to alter the length of your current spoilers.

I should define what I mean by it length, the length of spoilers is the distance between the tip of the spoiler and the tip of the propeller, the width (span) of the spoiler would be the distance between each spoiler, currently your width will work okay.

Please let me know if this needs further clarification.

Kelly
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Old Sep 19, 2011, 02:52 AM
DIY Mania from Taiwan
Taiwan
Joined Aug 2011
2,020 Posts
Kelly:
it takes good experience of aerodynamics to explain the detailed functions of the spoilers, I'll deal with this amazing device and get the best results out of it.
I'll try small, very light-weight bottons on the lower end of each spoiler tip
that is central to the span of the spoilers.
many thanks again for the detailed expailations.
have a nice day
Sam
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Old Sep 19, 2011, 07:43 PM
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gyros...

Quote:
Originally Posted by swami View Post
Looks like someone already tried an RC-version. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iZD...eature=related

Doesn't look to be so simple.

Epp would be a good idea i think.


Dirk.
It looks like gyros are working the control surfaces after the crash...

Just a guess...
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Old Sep 20, 2011, 09:32 PM
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Mixers and gyros models?

Sam,

Can you please tell what type (brand) of mixers, and gyros you are using on your sphere?

Thanks

Kelly

PS. Have had any luck getting your spoilers to drop downward while in flight?
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Old Sep 21, 2011, 02:50 AM
DIY Mania from Taiwan
Taiwan
Joined Aug 2011
2,020 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by corocopter View Post
Sam,

Can you please tell what type (brand) of mixers, and gyros you are using on your sphere?

Thanks

Kelly

PS. Have had any luck getting your spoilers to drop downward while in flight?
Kelly:
pls take a close look at this vid,the spoiler tips keep a bit downward against prop tips all the time,why downward.........
I used GWS V-mixers & PG03 gyros,the headlock gyro is from Align.Co.,Taiwan.
FYI
have a nice day
Sam

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