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Old Jun 04, 2011, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW View Post
@Luvmyhelisas long as the hardware didn't change it doesn't matter, remember that you have to flash the uC with your software anyhow, so whatever the code was before it's going to be overwritten
Thanks, I wasn't sure which part was being overwritten so I had to ask. Also there is some interest on the Assan GA-250 cheapest memms gyro site about your invention. And another link popped up there. The question of coarse is about the hh function. Here is the link to the 3d stab system that I knew nothing about, I like the small size.
http://code.google.com/p/phubar/

I was thinking late last night, since the system you made can be made with a link for a low batt light, why not provide a link for a lighting system that will shut off at 3.2v instead? I never use HH in a coax so I am not too worried about the novelty of hh when you look at the superiority of the memms system it may not be needed.
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Old Jun 05, 2011, 05:54 AM
OlliW
Joined Sep 2009
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Hey Luvmyhelis
Quote:
there is some interest on the Assan GA-250 cheapest memms gyro site about your invention.
well, at the moment it rather seems that you are the only one interested in this "invention"

Quote:
since the system ... can be made with a link for a low batt light, why not provide a link for a lighting system that will shut off at 3.2v instead
in principle that's no problem, the lightning system would only has to "understand" this link or switched off from power e.g. with a suitable transistor, but that's nothing which could not be done... in principle... the limitation here is just our imagination.

Quote:
I never use HH in a coax so I am not too worried about the novelty of hh when you look at the superiority of the memms system it may not be needed.
I think MEMS does only make sense with HH, because in rate mode you have all sorts of reasons for a drift; gyro drift is only one and IMHO the least important one. So, I think in rate mode the difference between piezo and MEMS might not be spectacular, and rather hard to notice. However, in HH mode (if things work properly) the drift is only limited by the gyro drift.

Quote:
The question of coarse is about the hh function.
there is no question, the principle is quite clear... I am in fact working on implementing that at this very moment... and a first version is doing already something...

Olli
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Old Jun 05, 2011, 06:37 AM
It flies!!! ... so who cares ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW View Post
Hey Luvmyhelis
well, at the moment it rather seems that you are the only one interested in this "invention"

...


Olli
Well Olli,

I guess the problem with people being "interested in this invention" is this:

For the large majority (and I am a bit sad I definitely have to include myself into this group of people, which I personally(!) believe (off course I might be terribly wrong and would have to be quite .) is the vast majority) this is the major problem ... all the principles, the technology, the design and the ideas - simply put everything that makes the final product work - are one (or in my case a few) levels above the degree of the matter that they really understand or want to really GET to understand ... I truly believe what is most important for most people in this hobby is that something works and they get it to work right - how you GET this "something" to work or more so 'work right' IMMHO is secondary concern for most of the "readers"
This, I believe is the reason that there is (in many cases) such a "low active participation" in the respective threads, which does absolutely not mean there is no interest! - the interest is just geared to a different aspect of the project.

Just to speak of myself, I would love for something like this being possible to just be purchased and used. The fact that it is an absolute DIY project (which, as I said is for many reasons rather far beyond my skills) will keep it most likely out of my reach until I leave the hobby (... in other words drop dead ...)

Anyway, just wanted to point out that I dont think there is a lack of interest in the product itself, but the "project" to create the product is just beyond what many can or want to deal with, which makes it seem like this.

I will keep on checking on this thread to read what all is possible, without truly understanding how you make it happen ...

E2
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Old Jun 05, 2011, 07:44 AM
OlliW
Joined Sep 2009
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Hey Sven,

thanks a lot for your comment.

I think I understand what you are saying. However, on the other hand, I think, it hardly can be simpler.

I mean, look at the multi copter forum, I think this is a very nice example of how thinks can work out. There you too find MANY people who do not and do not want to understand the code or how you said bother with how things were get to work (there are of course also quite a lot of true experts). Of these however there are quite many who are not afraid to purchase an Arduino, install a software on the PC, flash the uC, do some soldering work... they simply use the things which were developed, follow the "manual", and have fun. As a result many multi copters are build. This is noticed by entrepreneurs, they see a demand, and all of the sudden all sorts of stuff becomes available commercially... Finally, also those who "just" want to buy and use and have fun may also build their multi copter. And most importantly, all of these folks - from the experts to the just-buyers - all of them get help in the threads.

Unfortunately, in the coax forum(s) (not only this one), this sort of culture did not develop.

In the particular case of this project, I understand that only very few will be interessted to really dig into the details. However, I think it's made simple enough such that anyone who doesn't want to dig into the details, but doesn't bother to solder few cables, install software on a PC, and flash a uC either, can easily do the build. And for all the others who wouldn't wish to go even that far I did add a specific final comment.

IMHO the story is somewhat similar to Achim's coax mixer. I think quite some of you got a mixer from Achim. So, what's the problem? (I am afraid though that Achim's forthcomingness will not be rewarded by corresponding build posts). Also, in the German forum I once initiated a collective order for the mixer print board - and you know what? - about 15 persons signed up - and only this way nice print boards became available for many people.

So, my short answer to your response is:

I think it is not yet fully appreciated what a community could be for.

Have fun,
Olli

PS: I hope my comments do not come across harsh... if so, I appologize... you know, I am not using my mother tongue, and Germans tend to be a bit too upfront... I defenitely didn''t meant to offend anyone, and in particular not you.

PPS: by the way, I have not expected at all - and do not expect - that this thread creates much interest, but exactly because of that and the context you mentioned, I found Luvmyhelis comment kind of funny, there is a sort of humor to it
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Last edited by OlliW; Jun 05, 2011 at 08:36 AM.
Old Jun 05, 2011, 01:07 PM
It flies!!! ... so who cares ?
erdnuckel2's Avatar
Joined Mar 2009
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hey Olli,

cant really offend me with telling me anything is possible if you really want to (well to a certain degree anyway).
Let me add another thought to what I said earlier on. (yes btw, to a degree it is no (yet?) appreciated what a community can do ... as you said).

So here is the other thought I just had reading your last post. Apart from people no wanting to "dig deeper" or maybe really lacking some skills (you know I "speak from experience") dont forget that a coax is almost exclusively seen as first and foremost a beginners heli ... so many people will have long moved on from the coaxes (if they stick with the hobby) before the develop the interest to dig deeper, the skills you need to do so or both.

Just look at my personal "progress" - I am writing a lot about coaxes and I try quite a few things every once in a while (of course on a way less sophisticated level than you do) ... but the coax I actually FLY the most right now is the S107 (a 3ch - which I would have never ever have expected) - BUT ... the challenge that I gave myself is that I want to learn how to actually FLY a Walkera 4#3BV3 double brushless (so at least I dont have to do a conversion ...) Anyway, I guess what I want to say is that coaxes are widely regarded as nothing but a stepping stone to "actual" heli flying - which might also explain a bit of the lack of dedication that many pilots on these coax forums exhibit when it comes to the "science of the RC coax" ...

E2
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Old Jun 05, 2011, 01:54 PM
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Thanks OlliW, I am one of those people who are going to build a few of these. As soon as my slate of ongoing projects lessens I am pulling out the ol soldering iron and getting at it. I do have a quick question, is the programmer commercially or privately available? Right now I don't feel like building up both of these. I have the skills but not the desire. Also, is it possible to back track and mod your first posts to include the addresses of some of the better sites in which to buy smaller quantities of the parts needed? I just spent hours on one purchase of a pair of capacitors I replaced on my CC Ice 50 esc yesterday, so I know how time consuming a parts roundup can be.
Two years ago I posted a guide on replacing the easily burnt chips in the 3in1 eflite coax controller. Not a single person ever used it! They would rather spend $30 to $40 on a new 3in1 than spend 2 hours and $5 repairing one.
I have also seen more than just a tendency amongst coax enthusiasts to stay basic and cheap with plug and play options, correct this, I have seen this same tendency even in the CP world. As you mentioned there is more interest in the multi copter section for these improvements. For some reason that venue seems to attract more tech minded people, and has for years. Even the cheaply built quad rotor frames bring in huge money. It astounds me when those guys will step up and pay over $100 for $8 in Carbonfibre, and they seem to have no problem paying for 5 to 6 hundred dollar stability units. That most certainly is at the opposite end of the extreme from what I have witnessed on two of the largest helicopter forums as far as coax tech goes. I can say without error that I have only seen half a dozen guys even attempt a very basic and simple brushless upgrade since I have joined them well over two years ago. And as far as a very simple mechanical dual swash mod, no one.
Even on the CP forums the mods I have done to my 450 CP project have not been replicated in whole by any single person, so this is more the norm in the hobby than the exception. I say this not to condemn the sites involved nor the hobbyists but as a statement to clarify that what you have done is exceptional in nature and actually what is simple to you is far above the average guys desire and ability to replicate. I cannot tell you how many threads I have seen where guys can't even solder a battery lead!
So in the end don't take it as a personal rejection when there isn't a huge response to your lead. And honestly this same attitude has had an impact on my 450vtail dual swash flybarless since there has been 0 interest expressed anywhere by guys willing to replicate the effort. So I have been in no hurry whatsoever to finish it.

In looking for the last two years at how few people even looked at the simple brushless coax threads for both eflite and esky, even walkera, much less the few that commented I understand your confusion. This does not mean that your effort should not have been done, nor that eventually it will not be appreciated. I linked your thread to more than one software designer/electrical engineer that I know. And there is simply no way the impact of the process went unnoticed by them.
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Old Jun 05, 2011, 03:23 PM
OlliW
Joined Sep 2009
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Sven, Luvmyhelis,

please don't get me wrong. Before I considered posting it was absolutely clear to me that it is not going to attract many people and I posted it being fully aware of that. So that's not the point. Also, I do not expect at all that anyone is going to replicate any of my projects - I mean, I wouldn't do that myself, I would collect the available ideas, would add mine, to end up with a result which suits my very personal needs. So, if it provides ideas and useful info, which would stimulate and help others, this would be perfectly fine.

Sven, I fully comply with you what you said about coax, and I would have added what you, Luvmyhelis, said, namely that this seems to be characteristic for the heliworld (as oposed to the multi copter techi's)(though I have seen quite many coax BL mods in Germany).

By the way, this part of the discussion just emerged because I responded somewhat jokingly to the comment of Luvmyhelis that this project has attracted some interest, which I found - becasue of exactly the context you both described- kind of funny...

So much to that.

Quote:
is the programmer commercially or privately available?
not sure I understand exactly what you mean by that.

Both the Assan GA250 and the Robbe Programmer Box V2 No. 8642 are commercially available (and both are, considering what they provide, IMHO quite cheap). Both, however, have to be reflashed, i.e., a new software has to be programmed into them. For that you need an ISP programmer for Atmel micro controllers and a corresponding (PC) program. The ISP programmer plus software is also commercially available (and is cheap too) (but also simple DIY projectes exist, which, since the commercial ISP programmers are so cheap, are not really money savers). Additionally you need some servo cables with plugs according to your needs and wishes.

So, hardware-wise you need (all can be purchased):

- GA250
- Robbe Programmer Box V2 No. 8642
- Atmel ISP programmer
- cables, wires, plugs, and such stuff (can be purchased even configured)

You also need quite some software:

- a PC program to operate the Atmel ISP programmer (comes with the ISP programmer or can be downloaded for free)
- Haagens AVRootloader program (can be downloaded for free, I can direct you to a link or provide it)
- four .hex files with the softwares which have to be flashed into the uCs. These files I should provide.

As regards vendors, I think I am not a good advisor, since I am located in Germany...

Äh, I should not forget that, you need both the GA250 and Robbe Programmer Box, since without the Robbe box you would not be able to adjust any of the parameters.

Olli
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Old Jun 05, 2011, 08:39 PM
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Thanks Olli. Questions answered. I already have the GA-250 since I picked one up to play with a few months ago, now I just need the related parts to do the mod and will spend some time rounding things up. But they are cheap enough not to worry about.
Randy.
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Old Jun 06, 2011, 12:55 AM
OlliW
Joined Sep 2009
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oh, dammed, I forgot to list an additional piece of hardware you need, which, unfortunately, is in fact the one which needs most hand work - namely the bootloader connector. The Bootloader connector is then made of

1x resistor, 2x Schottky diodes, 1x RS232 connector (top picture)

If you have PC which provides a serial connection (RS232), then you may use that directly. If you wish to use USB, you have to emulate a RS232 connection. This can be done with the commercially available USB to RS232 converters (which are cheap too) plus some software (which comes for free). In that case you additionally need

1x USB to RS232 converter

Achim reported that the bootlader can also be used with one of the USB to TTL converters, but I have never used that. I will ask him. This could be the easiest solution.

Sorry for having forgotten this crucial part. I will think about that further to determine a most simple solution.

Olli

Attached the figure for the bootloader connector from Haagen (top picture)
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Old Jun 06, 2011, 06:38 AM
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Simply wow!

This is awesome stuff here!

Olli, you rock!

I haven't even finished my vtail mod yet, and now I want to try this out. One thing at a time but this looks to cool, I can't resist.

You guys are way beyond me and my capabilities in the electronic world, but I still enjoy the hell out of mimicing what you do...and this one looks like a blast!

after my vtail mod is sucessfull, this will be the next project...thanks Olli, your work is appreciated.

John
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Old Jun 06, 2011, 08:41 AM
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hi.olli,

your works looked good,that make me thinking develop such products too


meng
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Old Jun 06, 2011, 10:30 AM
OlliW
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hi.meng,

i know that you asian people are always quick with copying others ideas

olli
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Old Jun 06, 2011, 02:50 PM
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Hi Meng,
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASSAN View Post
hi.olli,
your works looked good,that make me thinking develop such products too
Well, let me think straight forward:
How about releasing the GA-250 firmware as opensource and also integrate some simple options (as Lipo Vbat input and BESC outputs) into the hardware layout.
We would make the GA-250 the runner of the year!

BTW: http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/boar...-deluxe-baube/
my project of a coax mixer with Lipo Saver (reducer), integrated 11 step throttle curves, Windows setup application...

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Old Jun 06, 2011, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW View Post
hi.meng,

i know that you asian people are always quick with copying others ideas

olli
Dear Olli,

what i think is if there have many coax pilots need such items,and more than 99% not smart or have electronic skill like you,why not make the things sample enough for such guys?

and, honest, GA250 is not a good business because it's couldn't earn enough money to balance the cost. we need find more to expand the product line.

we are thinking,not decided.

yours,

meng
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Old Jun 06, 2011, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4712 View Post
Hi Meng,


Well, let me think straight forward:
How about releasing the GA-250 firmware as opensource and also integrate some simple options (as Lipo Vbat input and BESC outputs) into the hardware layout.
We would make the GA-250 the runner of the year!

BTW: http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/boar...-deluxe-baube/
my project of a coax mixer with Lipo Saver (reducer), integrated 11 step throttle curves, Windows setup application...

hi,

your project looked also good for me.but open source is not good idea for GA250's case recently.because i am business man. GA250 is take an important role in our game.we can't take a risk to do something maybe will hurt the business.sorry,guy.


meng
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