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Old Jul 03, 2011, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Quad_Addict View Post
i like more control on my boards, hfsport is over priced by $125 over CC plain and simple, is it comparable to cc? sure from what i tested it felt close to the same. wasn't any easier to setup either. plus HF layout the board in my eyes wrong. for 2 reasons. one was on some esc i used and the frames i used the servos wires weren't long enough to reach around to the one side. i didnt wanna add extensions etc. 2 the front of the board is not in the corner and no way of rotating the front in software like CC that being said it prolly still comparable in performance but because of the CC software it blows it away, lets not forget direct satelite RX connection i mean how cool is it to hook up Xbee to CC and monitor and control your quad from the computer while recording flying characteristics. you should have those options for a $225 hfsport board. CC options make it impossible for HFS to stand next to it, price alone cough.
goodluck with yours.
+100 for sure, You will need to own one and use the GCS software to see how it works and what its true capabilities are and will be. I use bluetooth on mine to comunicate to the CC Board.
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Old Jul 03, 2011, 02:06 PM
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United States, IL, Chicago
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Originally Posted by Joecnc2006 View Post
+100 for sure, You will need to own one and use the GCS software to see how it works and what its true capabilities are and will be. I use bluetooth on mine to comunicate to the CC Board.
lol right joe the software alone should cost $100

seriously tho if you want easy pay for easy.
CC is easy after the first time for sure. and the software is so versatile! never seen so much control over a board before loveit!

ALSO LOOK AT THE SUPPORT! HOLY MOLY THE OPEN PILOT CORE TEAM RAWQS!
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Old Jul 03, 2011, 02:21 PM
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Navarre, FL
Joined Mar 2002
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Originally Posted by aerorotor View Post
IDK you would think that there should be some sort of look up table that can be applied to eliminate the need for PID tuning. This much P needs this much I and this much D. Hoverfly boards all you need to do is adjust gain on your TX and your board is tuned.
Tuning is always a compromise. The closest you could come to perfection is a board with a lot of settings, which is tuned by someone who intimately understands them, and has a very specific operating condition in mind. A good example of this would be Holger's MK videos. No one's MK flies as well as Holger's

For the rest of us, there's a lot of room for compromise. Some people want to get as close to perfection as they can, while others want the least adjustments possible. Most are somewhere in between I'd imagine.

For something like the HF where there's only one adjustment, it means someone made decisions about how the copter will react. There will also be limitations that wouldn't exist if you had full control. This might not be a bad thing, because for the consumer level quad buyer, this might result in a better flying copter than they'd ever get if they were forced to try to do all the tuning themselves.

OP seems to have given us a pretty good compromise from the start. They gave us easy access to enough adjustments to get the tuning done, and kept the stuff we shouldn't be messing with behind the curtain. I'm sure they could offer a single TX input gain control, but if I'm not mistaken, their ultimate goal will be autotune

As for having a look up table, it would be so extensive (due to all the variables) that I'm not sure it's feasible.

Cheers,
Rusty
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Old Jul 03, 2011, 02:23 PM
'FPV'er...not a "LOS'er
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Las Vegas, NV
Joined Sep 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quad_Addict View Post
lol right joe the software alone should cost $100

seriously tho if you want easy pay for easy.
CC is easy after the first time for sure. and the software is so versatile! never seen so much control over a board before loveit!

ALSO LOOK AT THE SUPPORT! HOLY MOLY THE OPEN PILOT CORE TEAM RAWQS!
Shhhhhhh.....Watch the price adjustments. I'm glad I got my Open Pilot GCS while it's still free!!!

I just spent the last several hours and four battery packs going through the PID learning curve. This is for my Tricopter I want to use for both FPV and simple playing. I've run into a couple of questions:
1. I found conflicting info on setting the Rate Ki. One said don't set Ki for both Rate and Attitude, and the other (video) says to adjust both. Which one is correct or does it not matter.
2. What does the Rate ILimit do? Does it 'tone down' the stick movements...i.e. tamer or wilder?
3. In Attitude mode I tried setting the yaw to 'Stabilize'. This cause my tilt servo to go way over to one side. When set to 'Rate' it acts normally. Should the yaw always be set to 'Rate'?

Right now I've got my Rate set with Kp, Ki, and ILimit. It feels a bit to 'reactive' for my liking. I'm hoping ILimit might adjust that, but ran out of batteries to test with.
My Attitude has Kp, Ki, and ILimit. It feels pretty good as is right now.

Oh, one last thing. In Attitude mode my copter wanted to drift backwards. In Rate mode it seems to hold just fine. Why the difference? My trim adjustments are the same both ways. Perhaps need to increase/decrease one of the pitch limits? If so, which one?

My first couple of boards (Gaui and KK) had no adjustments other than gain. This did make the setup a little easier (like the HF boards), but I found wanting for more fine tuning to personal preference, not what someone else thinks is good. I'm sure every size, weight, style multi will need its own 'specialized' adjustments to get the best out of the frame. As I'm learning the CC board I'm lov'n it even more. Yes, I do own others...a QuadRino (multiwii) and an XAircraft controllers. What I'm learning on the CC settings will only aid me to set the others up easier.
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Old Jul 03, 2011, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13brv3 View Post
I'm sure they could offer a single TX input gain control, but if I'm not mistaken, their ultimate goal will be autotune

As for having a look up table, it would be so extensive (due to all the variables) that I'm not sure it's feasible.
Yes, autotune is the goal for some version. But there is a lot of work yet.

Lookup table is fine but there are a lot of options. Even fresh or old battery makes sense (if it cannot provide enough current, efficiency of motors will suffer).

But we really want to make at some point a wizard which will help to tune it using some physical data as input values. Collecting the statistics is the first step to this, and something is already in the wiki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantasstic View Post
1. I found conflicting info on setting the Rate Ki. One said don't set Ki for both Rate and Attitude, and the other (video) says to adjust both. Which one is correct or does it not matter.
You should try both ways. We have found that both can coexist but we cannot yet give exact suggestions about which one you should prefer.

Quote:
2. What does the Rate ILimit do? Does it 'tone down' the stick movements...i.e. tamer or wilder?
Ki means integration, it adds some value proportional to error to the Kp every second (or millisecond). So ILimit is to be the bound for that windup. Or it can go crazy.

Quote:
3. In Attitude mode I tried setting the yaw to 'Stabilize'. This cause my tilt servo to go way over to one side. When set to 'Rate' it acts normally. Should the yaw always be set to 'Rate'?
Yes, Rate or AxisLock (available in latest development firmware).

Attitude means that it will try to point to the North (or power-up direction) and attempt to stabilize according to the yaw stick from the North. It is useful for auto navigation but definitely not desired for manual control.

Quote:
Oh, one last thing. In Attitude mode my copter wanted to drift backwards. In Rate mode it seems to hold just fine. Why the difference? My trim adjustments are the same both ways. Perhaps need to increase/decrease one of the pitch limits? If so, which one?
In Rate you level it yourself, in Attitude it wants to level as was calibrated. If you always have the same direction drift, try to recalibrate your accelerometers tilting the board in the opposite direction. It will think that THAT is the level and then try to keep it. Do that for big angles and you will see what I meant to say.

Quote:
My first couple of boards (Gaui and KK) had no adjustments other than gain.
Since they do not have Attitude stabilization mode. They do not have many settings as any adjustments are done by the pilot in flight.

It is enough to see how many options has, say, Spartan gyro for heli tail. We should have all them too, and for every axis in attitude mode. So if we do, many more settings will appear
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Old Jul 03, 2011, 04:22 PM
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[QUOTE=osnwt;18664422]Thanks for the response OSNWT. A few more questions then:
Quote:
Ki means integration, it adds some value proportional to error to the Kp every second (or millisecond). So ILimit is to be the bound for that windup. Or it can go crazy.
I'm lost on this still. Perhaps I just need to try it and see what it does.

Quote:
Attitude means that it will try to point to the North (or power-up direction) and attempt to stabilize according to the yaw stick from the North. It is useful for auto navigation but definitely not desired for manual control.
So yaw attitude mode requires a magnetic compass/sensor then? No worries, don't have one so won't worry about it for now.


Quote:
In Rate you level it yourself, in Attitude it wants to level as was calibrated. If you always have the same direction drift, try to recalibrate your accelerometers tilting the board in the opposite direction. It will think that THAT is the level and then try to keep it.
Ah...that makes perfect sense. I'll try recalibrating with a slightly elevated tail until I get level flight vs fwd/back drift.
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Old Jul 03, 2011, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Vantasstic View Post
So yaw attitude mode requires a magnetic compass/sensor then?
I'd say it is not applicable for manual control at all.

It is useful when autopilot commands: turn 90deg clockwise from North (that is, set heading to East). In that case 0.5 of yaw stick input will correspond to 90deg clockwise (and 1.0 will be 180deg, that is, South).

Of course it is useless in pilot-controlled mode regardless of compass (do you have real North as a zero direction or just power-up direction w/o compass).
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Old Jul 03, 2011, 06:51 PM
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How about the meaning of the Mix Levels on the Airplane Mixer Settings tab in the GCS? What happens if you change the Yaw level? The Yaw mix defaults at 50%. If I increased this would the yaw rate/speed go up or is the Yaw speed controlled by the AngleLimits in the Stabilization tab?
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Old Jul 04, 2011, 12:54 AM
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The mixer settings you probably don't need to adjust. Basically the effective value of the rate terms is rate Kp * mixer value, so for all intents and purposes you can just change the Kp. The only technical difference is that the mixer limits the maximum amount of control on a motor that axis can have. So for example if you set yaw to 100% and gave a huge yaw command, that could saturate the motors and prevent it correcting roll/pitch problems.

So I think some of the inconsistent information about combining the rate and attitude Ki has come from me, to be honest. I used to recommend mostly attitude Ki because at first most people were flying in attitude mode. However in the simulations I ran for that tuning video I found that actually attitude Ki can lead to more overshoot than I like. I didn't go through it in the video but I've also found this in practice.

However, I don't think we have enough experience to have a really solid rule of thumb on this. For sure if you are going to fly rate mode, you'll want some rate Ki. As for needing attitude Ki, a little bit will really help make sure it hits the desired attitude in the long run, but might cause a bit of overshoot that you don't like.

Regarding the limits, we almost shouldn't expose them in the UI, because they aren't really important under normal conditions. Basically that limits the amount of drive the integral part of the position-integral-derivative (PID) loop can cause. You shouldn't really be hitting those limits unless something is already going wrong. The main purpose for those is to prevent any weird conditions causing the integral to "wind-up" and start pushing very strongly.

Yaw attitude mode, as Os pointed out, won't generally be what people will like flying in. I actually used it for learning (on OP) because it meant if I wasn't pushing on the yaw stick the quad faced north. Meant I always knew which way the roll and pitch sticks went (usually towards a tree).

As for "easy tuning" I guess I've always been a bit of a perfectionist on this which is why I made the video - I'd prefer people to understand what they are doing and optimize their quads. If there were just a single term you should change then it would be the rateKp. We're also working on some architectural changes that will allow optional modules to be run - for example a tuning module - that lets you use a slider input to change the tuning settings. As Os commented, the dream would be to simply tie it up, click a "autotune my quad" and have it run an optimization algorithm. It's completely tractable and if anyone wants to get into writing this please PM me over at the OP forums - it's a fun problem. For now if I wrote that though, it would probably just play some auto-tuned R. Kelly instead for laughs.

Sorry for the essay. I've probably made things more opaque.
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Old Jul 04, 2011, 04:04 AM
Mikrokopter Australia ;-)
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Australia
Joined Apr 2008
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Mixing

So i just went from a small X Quad to a small X Hex.

In the Output Tab.
You have assignment ch 1 - 8, i can adjust all channels except ch 6
(its greyed out)

Any idea what i am doing wrong this time

Simon

You can clearly see the NW motor, i cannot move the slider.

GOT IT !!

Channel max was set at 1900 for ch1 -5
ch 6 was at 1000 :-)))
Now lets fly
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Last edited by simonjardine; Jul 04, 2011 at 05:16 AM. Reason: added screenshot..
Old Jul 04, 2011, 07:23 AM
a.d.m.i.n
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Any "update" when it will be available ? You said maybe before mid July, so anything new on this?
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Old Jul 04, 2011, 07:32 AM
Gaftopher
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The next batch of 100 was ordered, and is expected in the next two weeks, Depends on the assembler.

Keep looking here http://forums.openpilot.org/ for an announcement. It will happen there first.
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Old Jul 04, 2011, 07:33 AM
a.d.m.i.n
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Wow I think you order more than 100 pieces. 100 pieces for whole shops over world? This is too low.
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Old Jul 04, 2011, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Mortimer View Post
The next batch of 100 was ordered, and is expected in the next two weeks, Depends on the assembler.

Keep looking here http://forums.openpilot.org/ for an announcement. It will happen there first.
OK that will last a day LOL
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Old Jul 04, 2011, 07:48 AM
Gaftopher
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Don't worry there are more in the pipeline, but I am not going to say anything about those just yet.
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