HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
 
Thread Tools
Old Aug 21, 2003, 04:01 AM
Doug McLaren
Guest
n/a Posts
why don't we see any zapped cells?

The R/C car people seem to like their zapped cells -- you run a very
large current through a battery for a short period, and it does
something to the battery to give it a lower internal resistance.
(They do seem to be vague on what actually happens internally, but the
difference is definately noticable.)

For example, here's a graph that shows the difference that zapping
made for this (NiMH, but zapping is also done with NiCd) cell --

http://www.magtechinc.net/celltesthr45aup.htm

They also claim that there's no downsides -- reduced life or
reliability. Of course, they're also selling batteries, so it's not
like they're impartial

Doing a google search for `zapped cells' I definately do see that
there's a few people selling them and intending them for airplane use.

But my question is this -- it sounds like it's a win/win situation for
power packs, so why isn't zapping done more often? It's not a new
thing, you'd think it would have caught on more.

--
Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com The geek shall inherit the earth.
Old Aug 21, 2003, 04:01 AM
Ed Cregger
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

I always thought that the intent was to break up the dendrites (crystal
formations) in nicad batteries. I wasn't aware that people were doing it
with NIMH batteries too.

Mr. Scholefield! Where are you? <G>

Ed Cregger


"Doug McLaren" <dougmc@frenzy.com> wrote in message
news:v8Z0b.156$zG3.109760@twister.austin.rr.com...
> The R/C car people seem to like their zapped cells -- you run a very
> large current through a battery for a short period, and it does
> something to the battery to give it a lower internal resistance.
> (They do seem to be vague on what actually happens internally, but the
> difference is definately noticable.)
>
> For example, here's a graph that shows the difference that zapping
> made for this (NiMH, but zapping is also done with NiCd) cell --
>
> http://www.magtechinc.net/celltesthr45aup.htm
>
> They also claim that there's no downsides -- reduced life or
> reliability. Of course, they're also selling batteries, so it's not
> like they're impartial
>
> Doing a google search for `zapped cells' I definately do see that
> there's a few people selling them and intending them for airplane use.
>
> But my question is this -- it sounds like it's a win/win situation for
> power packs, so why isn't zapping done more often? It's not a new
> thing, you'd think it would have caught on more.
>
> --
> Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com The geek shall inherit the

earth.



Old Aug 21, 2003, 04:01 AM
Paul McIntosh
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

I would question their graph since it seems to show that the zapped cell now
has about 1/3 more capacity than the un-zapped cell! Look at the area of
the graph under each line.

--
Paul McIntosh
Desert Sky Model Aviation
http://fly.mcintoshcentral.com
"Doug McLaren" <dougmc@frenzy.com> wrote in message
news:v8Z0b.156$zG3.109760@twister.austin.rr.com...
> The R/C car people seem to like their zapped cells -- you run a very
> large current through a battery for a short period, and it does
> something to the battery to give it a lower internal resistance.
> (They do seem to be vague on what actually happens internally, but the
> difference is definately noticable.)
>
> For example, here's a graph that shows the difference that zapping
> made for this (NiMH, but zapping is also done with NiCd) cell --
>
> http://www.magtechinc.net/celltesthr45aup.htm
>
> They also claim that there's no downsides -- reduced life or
> reliability. Of course, they're also selling batteries, so it's not
> like they're impartial
>
> Doing a google search for `zapped cells' I definately do see that
> there's a few people selling them and intending them for airplane use.
>
> But my question is this -- it sounds like it's a win/win situation for
> power packs, so why isn't zapping done more often? It's not a new
> thing, you'd think it would have caught on more.
>
> --
> Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com The geek shall inherit the

earth.


Old Aug 21, 2003, 04:01 AM
Anthony R
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

It is done, but only for higher capacity batteries. What it does is put a
huge surge of current through the cell, essentially welding the cell
together internally. This gives it a much lower internal resistance which
in turn allows the cell to deliver higher current. I don't think it has any
effect on capacity, and I am pretty sure that it is not a good idea to zap
all cells...it all depends on how they are physically constructed.

You CAN buy zapped cells from many places, I have bought a lot of batteries
from www.dynamoelectrics.com and they sell zapped 3300mah NIMH cells.

I have even read about certian devices you can buy to zap your own cells,
but they are expensive and dangerous...the capacitors they use are very
large and can hold a lot of energy.


"Doug McLaren" <dougmc@frenzy.com> wrote in message
news:v8Z0b.156$zG3.109760@twister.austin.rr.com...
> The R/C car people seem to like their zapped cells -- you run a very
> large current through a battery for a short period, and it does
> something to the battery to give it a lower internal resistance.
> (They do seem to be vague on what actually happens internally, but the
> difference is definately noticable.)
>
> For example, here's a graph that shows the difference that zapping
> made for this (NiMH, but zapping is also done with NiCd) cell --
>
> http://www.magtechinc.net/celltesthr45aup.htm
>
> They also claim that there's no downsides -- reduced life or
> reliability. Of course, they're also selling batteries, so it's not
> like they're impartial
>
> Doing a google search for `zapped cells' I definately do see that
> there's a few people selling them and intending them for airplane use.
>
> But my question is this -- it sounds like it's a win/win situation for
> power packs, so why isn't zapping done more often? It's not a new
> thing, you'd think it would have caught on more.
>
> --
> Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com The geek shall inherit the

earth.


Old Aug 21, 2003, 04:01 AM
The Natural Philosopher
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

Doug McLaren wrote:

> The R/C car people seem to like their zapped cells -- you run a very
> large current through a battery for a short period, and it does
> something to the battery to give it a lower internal resistance.
> (They do seem to be vague on what actually happens internally, but the
> difference is definately noticable.)
>
> For example, here's a graph that shows the difference that zapping
> made for this (NiMH, but zapping is also done with NiCd) cell --
>
> http://www.magtechinc.net/celltesthr45aup.htm
>
> They also claim that there's no downsides -- reduced life or
> reliability. Of course, they're also selling batteries, so it's not
> like they're impartial
>
> Doing a google search for `zapped cells' I definately do see that
> there's a few people selling them and intending them for airplane use.
>
> But my question is this -- it sounds like it's a win/win situation for
> power packs, so why isn't zapping done more often? It's not a new
> thing, you'd think it would have caught on more.
>



Its time consuming, doesn't always work, and gains very little in most
applications - only a few people need ultra high power for a few seconds
- usually ducted fan, pyon racers or high performance ailplanes.

For average use, its better to spebnd the extra money on (more) Lithium,
cells. More power and duration per unit weight is what we want. The car
boys want power per unit size.


>



Old Aug 22, 2003, 01:45 AM
Registered User
EloyM's Avatar
SantaAna CA
Joined Aug 2003
318 Posts
ZAPPED BATTERIES

If this improved the cells in any way without harmful effects, don't you think Sanyo, Panasonic, et al would be doing it?????
EloyM is online now Find More Posts by EloyM
Old Aug 22, 2003, 04:00 AM
Red Scholefield
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

Right here LOL.
Zapping is probably right up there with devices to rejuvenate cells, erasing
memory, etc. when it comes to the con games played in the battery business.

Consequently since zapping is a religious experience for some I don't engage
in the discussions.

I would love to have the money we (GE) invested in investigations of zapping
for some major customers, particularly in the power tool market where they
wanted some extra punch.

--
Red S.
Red's R/C Battery Clinic
http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com
Check us out for "revolting" information.

"Ed Cregger" <ecregger@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uKZ0b.3428$IY5.918@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
> I always thought that the intent was to break up the dendrites (crystal
> formations) in nicad batteries. I wasn't aware that people were doing it
> with NIMH batteries too.
>
> Mr. Scholefield! Where are you? <G>
>
> Ed Cregger
>
>
> "Doug McLaren" <dougmc@frenzy.com> wrote in message
> news:v8Z0b.156$zG3.109760@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > The R/C car people seem to like their zapped cells -- you run a very
> > large current through a battery for a short period, and it does
> > something to the battery to give it a lower internal resistance.
> > (They do seem to be vague on what actually happens internally, but the
> > difference is definately noticable.)
> >
> > For example, here's a graph that shows the difference that zapping
> > made for this (NiMH, but zapping is also done with NiCd) cell --
> >
> > http://www.magtechinc.net/celltesthr45aup.htm
> >
> > They also claim that there's no downsides -- reduced life or
> > reliability. Of course, they're also selling batteries, so it's not
> > like they're impartial
> >
> > Doing a google search for `zapped cells' I definately do see that
> > there's a few people selling them and intending them for airplane use.
> >
> > But my question is this -- it sounds like it's a win/win situation for
> > power packs, so why isn't zapping done more often? It's not a new
> > thing, you'd think it would have caught on more.
> >
> > --
> > Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com The geek shall inherit the

> earth.
>
>
>




Old Aug 22, 2003, 04:00 AM
astroflyer
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 05:54:35 GMT, "Doug McLaren" <dougmc@frenzy.com>
wrote:

>The R/C car people seem to like their zapped cells --


Take a piece of standard electrical tape...put it longitudinally down
the roof of the car body...win a couple of races, claiming all the
while how that slick tape has reduced drag on your car....next day
half the racers will be lined up at the local automotive store looking
for the same tape...

zapped cells anyone???

cheers
astroflyer


Old Aug 22, 2003, 04:00 AM
Doug McLaren
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

In article <bi1qgp$aqt$1@hercules.btinternet.com>,
Paul McIntosh <paul@mcintoshcentral.com> wrote:

| I would question their graph since it seems to show that the zapped cell now
| has about 1/3 more capacity than the un-zapped cell! Look at the area of
| the graph under each line.

Well, if the zapping really does decrease the internal resistance,
then that is exactly what I'd expect to see. The mAh capacity is
obviously unchanged (because the battery peters out at exactly the
same place, and it's being discharged at a constant rate) but it's
delivering it at a higher voltage. Since it's a pretty quick
discharge (20 amps), lowering the internal resistance should make a
big difference. (if the discharge were only 2 amps, the difference
would be much smaller.)

Also note that the graph stops at 0.9 volts rather than 0 volts, so
the difference isn't as huge as it looks at first. Still, it's
substantial.

I used to think that zapping was snake oil, but this graph really does
suggest otherwise. Alas, I don't have any zapped cells to test
myself, and don't have the equipment to zap cells myself, so I was
asking if anybody else had any experience ...

I guess what I may need to do is buy some identical cells, zapped and
unzapped, and make my own graphs.

| > For example, here's a graph that shows the difference that zapping
| > made for this (NiMH, but zapping is also done with NiCd) cell --
| >
| > http://www.magtechinc.net/celltesthr45aup.htm

As for astroflyer's comments --

| Take a piece of standard electrical tape...put it longitudinally down
| the roof of the car body...win a couple of races, claiming all the
| while how that slick tape has reduced drag on your car....next day
| half the racers will be lined up at the local automotive store looking
| for the same tape...
|
| zapped cells anyone???

That's cute, and there may even be some truth to it (the idea that car
racers are lemmings), but obviously there's more benefit to `zapping'
than to adding a piece of electrical tape to your car's body.

Either that, or this graph is faked.

--
Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com
Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
Old Aug 22, 2003, 04:00 AM
Paul McIntosh
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

It looks like the "test" was only done with one cell of each. I would like
to see some REAL testing done on large quantities over a longer time period
before I was willing to spend more money on zapped cells.

--
Paul McIntosh
Desert Sky Model Aviation
http://fly.mcintoshcentral.com
"Doug McLaren" <dougmc@frenzy.com> wrote in message
newsX51b.46$bj.13@twister.austin.rr.com...
> In article <bi1qgp$aqt$1@hercules.btinternet.com>,
> Paul McIntosh <paul@mcintoshcentral.com> wrote:
>
> | I would question their graph since it seems to show that the zapped cell

now
> | has about 1/3 more capacity than the un-zapped cell! Look at the area

of
> | the graph under each line.
>
> Well, if the zapping really does decrease the internal resistance,
> then that is exactly what I'd expect to see. The mAh capacity is
> obviously unchanged (because the battery peters out at exactly the
> same place, and it's being discharged at a constant rate) but it's
> delivering it at a higher voltage. Since it's a pretty quick
> discharge (20 amps), lowering the internal resistance should make a
> big difference. (if the discharge were only 2 amps, the difference
> would be much smaller.)
>
> Also note that the graph stops at 0.9 volts rather than 0 volts, so
> the difference isn't as huge as it looks at first. Still, it's
> substantial.
>
> I used to think that zapping was snake oil, but this graph really does
> suggest otherwise. Alas, I don't have any zapped cells to test
> myself, and don't have the equipment to zap cells myself, so I was
> asking if anybody else had any experience ...
>
> I guess what I may need to do is buy some identical cells, zapped and
> unzapped, and make my own graphs.
>
> | > For example, here's a graph that shows the difference that zapping
> | > made for this (NiMH, but zapping is also done with NiCd) cell --
> | >
> | > http://www.magtechinc.net/celltesthr45aup.htm
>
> As for astroflyer's comments --
>
> | Take a piece of standard electrical tape...put it longitudinally down
> | the roof of the car body...win a couple of races, claiming all the
> | while how that slick tape has reduced drag on your car....next day
> | half the racers will be lined up at the local automotive store looking
> | for the same tape...
> |
> | zapped cells anyone???
>
> That's cute, and there may even be some truth to it (the idea that car
> racers are lemmings), but obviously there's more benefit to `zapping'
> than to adding a piece of electrical tape to your car's body.
>
> Either that, or this graph is faked.
>
> --
> Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com
> Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown



Old Aug 22, 2003, 04:00 AM
Paul McIntosh
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

Same thing happened to me in full scale autocross. My Datsun 510 had purple
ignition wires and all the techies were ohhing and ahhing over them. They
LOOKED so cool! Well, I won my class against BMWs and Hondas and the next
week, half the cars in the class had the purple wires! I still beat them!

--
Paul McIntosh
Desert Sky Model Aviation
http://fly.mcintoshcentral.com
"astroflyer" <astroflyer@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:9eo9kvgibmkeadd5uau6ng27vh6pb3pq3f@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 05:54:35 GMT, "Doug McLaren" <dougmc@frenzy.com>
> wrote:
>
> >The R/C car people seem to like their zapped cells --

>
> Take a piece of standard electrical tape...put it longitudinally down
> the roof of the car body...win a couple of races, claiming all the
> while how that slick tape has reduced drag on your car....next day
> half the racers will be lined up at the local automotive store looking
> for the same tape...
>
> zapped cells anyone???
>
> cheers
> astroflyer
>
>



Old Aug 22, 2003, 04:00 AM
Pé Reivers
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

Red,
Do they realy mean Zapping (lightning bolt current peak), or do they mean
Pushing, which is a crush procedure that seems to reduce inner resistance,
at the cost of about 30% ruined cells? The surviving cells of the latter
procedure indeed seem to perform better, with less internal heat generated,
so more is available to drive the prop.

--
Rgds,

From Arcen, South-East in the Netherlands
preivers
@
mvvs-nl.com
http://mvvs-nl.com/
www.prme.nl


"Red Scholefield" <redscho@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:jP31b.6067$qw1.1057@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
> Right here LOL.
> Zapping is probably right up there with devices to rejuvenate cells,

erasing
> memory, etc. when it comes to the con games played in the battery

business.
>
> Consequently since zapping is a religious experience for some I don't

engage
> in the discussions.
>
> I would love to have the money we (GE) invested in investigations of

zapping
> for some major customers, particularly in the power tool market where they
> wanted some extra punch.
>
> --
> Red S.
> Red's R/C Battery Clinic
> http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com
> Check us out for "revolting" information.
>
> "Ed Cregger" <ecregger@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:uKZ0b.3428$IY5.918@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > I always thought that the intent was to break up the dendrites (crystal
> > formations) in nicad batteries. I wasn't aware that people were doing it
> > with NIMH batteries too.
> >
> > Mr. Scholefield! Where are you? <G>
> >
> > Ed Cregger
> >
> >
> > "Doug McLaren" <dougmc@frenzy.com> wrote in message
> > news:v8Z0b.156$zG3.109760@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > The R/C car people seem to like their zapped cells -- you run a very
> > > large current through a battery for a short period, and it does
> > > something to the battery to give it a lower internal resistance.
> > > (They do seem to be vague on what actually happens internally, but the
> > > difference is definately noticable.)
> > >
> > > For example, here's a graph that shows the difference that zapping
> > > made for this (NiMH, but zapping is also done with NiCd) cell --
> > >
> > > http://www.magtechinc.net/celltesthr45aup.htm
> > >
> > > They also claim that there's no downsides -- reduced life or
> > > reliability. Of course, they're also selling batteries, so it's not
> > > like they're impartial
> > >
> > > Doing a google search for `zapped cells' I definately do see that
> > > there's a few people selling them and intending them for airplane use.
> > >
> > > But my question is this -- it sounds like it's a win/win situation for
> > > power packs, so why isn't zapping done more often? It's not a new
> > > thing, you'd think it would have caught on more.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com The geek shall inherit

the
> > earth.
> >
> >
> >

>
>
>



Old Aug 22, 2003, 04:01 AM
Courseyauto
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

Back when i raced RC cars,i had all the battery testing equipment that tested
discharge rate for individual cells so you could build a matched pack with all
the cells with equal discharge rate ie: volts and time. I had some used cells
zapped and it does indeed work. They have be zapped individually,they all had
increased run time with higher voltage output,the voltage stayed higher for a
longer time. Never had one damaged by zapping. Zapping a battery for
airplane use would be not worth the time or money,however it does if your
racing cars and need the optimun battery where every second of run time counts.
I know there are some doubters but i know first hand that it does work and is
not a con game. DOUG
Old Aug 22, 2003, 04:01 AM
Ken Day
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

Red , this is kinda off topic but I just had to tell you about this.
I have a Futaba 3 ch surface TX that I bought in 1988 and it was about
a year old then. I used it on one of my nitro boats up until two
years ago with the same battery pack. I got the radio out a few days
ago and charged it and cycled it. It Still works and shows good
capacity on my DigiPace. I'm afraid to use it in a 50 mph nitro boat
until I get a new pack but I am runnning it in an electric RC car.
It has 2/3 AA cells (8) and the cells have no name on them. They are
a dark bluish-green color. I can hardly believe these cells are
working after almost 14 years. Just how long can some of these ni-cads
last anyway ? Would you have idea what brand cells they are by the
color ?

Thanks

Ken Day

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:41:52 -0400, "Red Scholefield"
<redscho@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>Right here LOL.
>Zapping is probably right up there with devices to rejuvenate cells, erasing
>memory, etc. when it comes to the con games played in the battery business.
>
>Consequently since zapping is a religious experience for some I don't engage
>in the discussions.
>
>I would love to have the money we (GE) invested in investigations of zapping
>for some major customers, particularly in the power tool market where they
>wanted some extra punch.


Old Aug 22, 2003, 04:01 AM
Mathew Kirsch
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: why don't we see any zapped cells?

"Doug McLaren" <dougmc@frenzy.com> wrote in message news:<v8Z0b.156$zG3.109760@twister.austin.rr.com>. ..
> But my question is this -- it sounds like it's a win/win situation for
> power packs, so why isn't zapping done more often? It's not a new
> thing, you'd think it would have caught on more.


You'll notice that zapped cells are primarily used in competition.
Most people who casually drive their R/C cars are content with the
cheapest packs they can get their hands on. The car goes, and that's
what matters. Going 1/100000 of a second faster than the other guy is
not important, because there is no other guy.

The same thing is going on in R/C planes. Zapped cells are being used
extensively in competitive events like F5B, but the casual flier sees
no need for the added expense just to eek a little extra juice out of
the batteries. The plane flies, and that's what matters.

http://www.battlepack.com zaps all their cells, but if you read the
fine print, their primary customer is the Battle Bot driver, where
eeking the last little drop of performance out of everything is the
name of the game. Again, a competitive event!

Basically, zapped cells are attractive to people who fly/drive in
competitive events. The rest of us would rather have longer flight
times.
 


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Why don't we see more one-design competitions? John255 Hand Launch 13 May 08, 2007 08:22 PM
Why don't you see 9 cell systems very often? DesignGeek Beginner Training Area (Aircraft-Electric) 4 Feb 08, 2004 06:14 PM
Why don't you see reviews of really bad products. Ben Lanterman Electric Plane Talk 73 Aug 25, 2003 11:09 PM
Why don't we get vapor trails? Jaffa Electric Plane Talk 30 Mar 11, 2003 12:55 PM
Why don´t we fry our receivers when connecting battery connector wrong? Erik Johansson Electric Plane Talk 3 Dec 12, 2001 06:52 PM