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Old Oct 26, 2012, 08:09 PM
Pro Horder
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As you say..nowadays...but in the past!!!
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Old Oct 27, 2012, 04:08 AM
310mph Kolibri T25 Swist
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Sverige, Kronobergs Lšn, Ljungby
Joined Jan 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonut View Post
Not all compressors are stock turbo parts...just because you can machine a part doesnt say you can do it well.. the quality of the materials is by far the first most important part of any turbine...then you need to be able to maintain tollarances to a fair level. I can design and build a outrunner on my shop smith in my garrage..no way can i do a turbine of any real quality at my level...it is just not the same..if it was everybody would be flying a jet joe turbine...they have proven that allready..you are way oversimplifying..its just not going to work that way
Well ofcause you need to choose the right materials and I am oversimplifying a bit, but not that much. There are alot of home builders of turbines that do it very well. It's not magic. Still I beleve they won't succeed as alot of people just don't read the instructions before fiddeling with stuff, combined with poor QC.

I would have expected you would see a bunch of their engines beeing ran and evolved before they started selling it, but that has not happend yet.
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Old Oct 27, 2012, 08:29 AM
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Pittsburgh Allegheny, Pennsylvania, United States
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Henke is oversimplifying... but he is right. The engineering has been done... and we have a company like Jet Joe who's made all the mistakes... so we know that we can't get away with stainless in the combuster parts. And... if you don't let the RPM's get too high... you can use "Off the Shelf" compressor wheels.

We've had RC turbines for about 15 years now (reliable, Liquid fuel versions) So... anyone should be able to copy a known good design.

The last mistake they can make, is to try to make their own ECU and Pump. Personally... if they don't use an Xicroy ECU, and a flightworks pump... they are DUMB !!!!!!!! Jet Joe tried to do their own... and they would fail. Heck... they even gave up on the pump, and you could get a flight-works as an option.

When King-Tech came to the market as the "New Import" people thought they were going to be the Jet Joe... but they brought out a great engine, at a great price. (And they didn't try to make their own ECU)
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Old Oct 27, 2012, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henke View Post
I would have expected you would see a bunch of their engines beeing ran and evolved before they started selling it, but that has not happend yet.
If I was developing a product like this, I'd be testing it as covertly as possible, just releasing the odd tidbit of information to whet the appetite of potential consumers.

I hope they succeed in bringing an affordable, useable product to the market, I'll be first in line to put one on my bench!
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Old Oct 27, 2012, 03:05 PM
Too many numbers
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Bruce speaks! He says the weather has been bad. Okay, fine. He also said the ECU was giving him a fault and he sent it back to HK, who sent it back to the ECU manufacturer. No update on when he will be testing it. HK says the unit(s) is ready to go but they don't have a service network setup yet. Sound like an excuse to me... I'm guessing whatever fault Bruce found, other testers found as well and they haven't figured out how to work out the bug (or there is an actualy design problem).
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Old Oct 27, 2012, 10:04 PM
"Take Off" eh!
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Canada, ON, Beeton
Joined Aug 2008
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Must suck! having a work shop OUTSIDE! lol

The ECU problem I can believe.. They should have just bought one off the shelf instead of designing their own. Kinda like re inventing the wheel.
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 03:54 AM
310mph Kolibri T25 Swist
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Originally Posted by vettster View Post
The ECU problem I can believe.. They should have just bought one off the shelf instead of designing their own. Kinda like re inventing the wheel.
But the ECU is the simplest part. Of all the parts in the turbine I think most of you agree the electronics would be the part that HK would do best! An ECU is a couple of brushed ESCs limited by a termocoupler and RPM sensor. Programming the regulators is the hardest part but that wouldn't take forever either.

A multirotor board with multiple gyros are FAR more complex and that they do fine.

Here HK really can rule by making their own ECU with brushless pump and startermotor way cheaper then the xicoy.
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henke View Post
But the ECU is the simplest part. Of all the parts in the turbine I think most of you agree the electronics would be the part that HK would do best! An ECU is a couple of brushed ESCs limited by a termocoupler and RPM sensor. Programming the regulators is the hardest part but that wouldn't take forever either.

A multirotor board with multiple gyros are FAR more complex and that they do fine.

Here HK really can rule by making their own ECU with brushless pump and startermotor way cheaper then the xicoy.
No.... the ECU would be the hardest part.

Physically... it's an easy project for an EE. BUT... the software isn't. Gaspar (Xicoy) has been evolving his software... and hardware... for +10 years now. This is one place that Jet Joe FAILED in. The retail on a Xicoy ECU with sensors is only about 200eur, (I'm sure to a dealer is 30% less) so why and try to make your own? (at least at first) Remember... bad software can destroy an engine just as fast as bad materials and quality in the assembly.


In my eye's... copying an engine is WAY easier than copying the ECU. (since they really can't pull the code)


Finally... Using a Xicoy ECU and a Flightworks pump is a positive selling point to the turbine community, and would help in their success.
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 10:20 AM
310mph Kolibri T25 Swist
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Originally Posted by Dr Honda View Post
Finally... Using a Xicoy ECU and a Flightworks pump is a positive selling point to the turbine community, and would help in their success.
Are you really selling a HK turbine to people who knows what xicoy are? I doubt it. Making a cheap turbine €150 is ALOT of money. You need two escs an rpm sensor and a temprature sensor + a couple of small on/off switches for solenoids and glowplug. Put that togeather in the turningy ESC factory and it would cost maybe €20 + sensors.

And I didn't say copy the ECU, just make their own. It's pretty simple. Same sort of PID regulators that keeps a quadrocopter level to monitor the engine. You need to monitor EGT and RPM while you ramp the pump up and down. It's not rocket sience.

Jetjoe seem to be a one man show, so is Gaspar. Hence takeing time for development, not that it's very hard.

The ECU I think they can pull of by them selves very well but the engine I doubt within a couple of years.

There are more and more ECUs popping up here and there now days. Cutting costs adding functionality.

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Old Oct 30, 2012, 01:55 PM
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I'm not saying it's impossible... but they aren't going to save much $$$ in production by making their own ECU and pump. (for the initial release) Even Lambert wasn't foolish enough to make their own ECU. The one you have posted is new, and I'm not familiar with it... but the rectangular, green plastic case that they were using was one of Gaspars units. (same as my Wren 44)


Now... your comment about the quad-copters is true. BUT... all of that started as "Open Source" development. So... when China decided to make the control boards... they just copied what was already out there. They didn't have to develop their own code. So... they can copy the hardware (like Jet Joe Did) but they will have to develop their own code... and a few hot starts... or fast ramp-ups will cook the bearings, or erode the "Hot" section of the engine.

As I said before... It's NOT easy to do. OR... I guess I should say... It's not a TRIVIAL thing to do.

Not to mention... it just takes one "worry" out of the customer service loop... AND... one less thing that would have to warranty, since problems with a Xicoy ECU can go back to Gaspar.


I just thought I would post this as proof of what I'm trying to explain....


http://www.xicoy.com/foros/
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Last edited by Dr Honda; Oct 30, 2012 at 02:07 PM.
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 02:03 PM
"Take Off" eh!
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Canada, ON, Beeton
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I wonder if the problem is not actually the ECU as originally posted but the FADEC.

Perhaps its parameters and such that are the problem

Could someone please quote what Bruce actually said, or provide a link.
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 04:18 PM
310mph Kolibri T25 Swist
henke's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Honda View Post
I'm not saying it's impossible... but they aren't going to save much $$$ in production by making their own ECU and pump. (for the initial release) Even Lambert wasn't foolish enough to make their own ECU. The one you have posted is new, and I'm not familiar with it... but the rectangular, green plastic case that they were using was one of Gaspars units. (same as my Wren 44)


Now... your comment about the quad-copters is true. BUT... all of that started as "Open Source" development. So... when China decided to make the control boards... they just copied what was already out there. They didn't have to develop their own code. So... they can copy the hardware (like Jet Joe Did) but they will have to develop their own code... and a few hot starts... or fast ramp-ups will cook the bearings, or erode the "Hot" section of the engine.

As I said before... It's NOT easy to do. OR... I guess I should say... It's not a TRIVIAL thing to do.

Not to mention... it just takes one "worry" out of the customer service loop... AND... one less thing that would have to warranty, since problems with a Xicoy ECU can go back to Gaspar.


I just thought I would post this as proof of what I'm trying to explain....


http://www.xicoy.com/foros/

Still it is pretty simple if you set it up with limitations. I do program car ECUs for fun and at first glare it looks very complex, but it's really not that hard if you learn it bit by bit. For example I setup a fuel cut that shuts the engine of if the boost exceeds a certain limit. The same with turbines, put a limit where you shut the pump if EGT goes over say 800C. And just ramp the engine slow. No one said the Hk turbine needs to be the fastest spooling on the planet. We all know nothing can spool faster then an Evo-cat-tech-munt-central engine

And why not make it open source as their other stuff...

Well anyway it will be intresting to see what they come up with, both for the engine, the electronics and not the least why they suddenly are eager to provide service to their customers
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 09:30 PM
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United States, MO, Springfield
Joined Jul 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Honda View Post
I'm not saying it's impossible... but they aren't going to save much $$$ in production by making their own ECU and pump. (for the initial release) Even Lambert wasn't foolish enough to make their own ECU. The one you have posted is new, and I'm not familiar with it... but the rectangular, green plastic case that they were using was one of Gaspars units. (same as my Wren 44)


Now... your comment about the quad-copters is true. BUT... all of that started as "Open Source" development. So... when China decided to make the control boards... they just copied what was already out there. They didn't have to develop their own code. So... they can copy the hardware (like Jet Joe Did) but they will have to develop their own code... and a few hot starts... or fast ramp-ups will cook the bearings, or erode the "Hot" section of the engine.

As I said before... It's NOT easy to do. OR... I guess I should say... It's not a TRIVIAL thing to do.

Not to mention... it just takes one "worry" out of the customer service loop... AND... one less thing that would have to warranty, since problems with a Xicoy ECU can go back to Gaspar.


I just thought I would post this as proof of what I'm trying to explain....


http://www.xicoy.com/foros/
sounds like to thing to do IF the turbine it self is any good(unlikely) is toss the ECU and get one thats better 3rd party
if the turbines are cheap enough and work ok other wise IT MIGHT be ok deal
now the question is how hard is it to make a 2 stage? like the Wren 44? for helis
and could HK make a 2nd stage that doesnt suck lol
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 02:45 AM
310mph Kolibri T25 Swist
henke's Avatar
Sverige, Kronobergs Lšn, Ljungby
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Originally Posted by Elios000 View Post
sounds like to thing to do IF the turbine it self is any good(unlikely) is toss the ECU and get one thats better 3rd party
Or vice versa, toss the turbine and get a better 3rd party turbine to your HK ECU :-)
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 07:56 AM
Bleriot's R Us
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Ireland, Donegal
Joined Nov 2003
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Turbine ECU's are not a simple as you think to get all the parameters correct, if they are doing it from scratch, they will have running problems.
Pics I have seen of the HK ECU looks very similar to another one so I am thinking they may not be 100% designing it themselves
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