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Old Jul 11, 2011, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by telos81 View Post
Which Bob Smith do you like?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...+epoxy&x=0&y=0

I already ordered the glue listed above, but in my experience - can't have too many glues around the house
5 minute-- http://www.amazon.com/Bob-Smith-202-...0438761&sr=8-1

Several of our local hobby stores, like Hobbytown and Science Center, relabel Bob Smith epoxy with their store logo. I use a postal scale to get the correct mix ratio which also prevents wasting product. I use mainly 5 minute but have on hand 15 and 30.

Allan
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 02:38 AM
Looking4Grass in AZ
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Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
ATR,

Which hole is the elevator pushrod in? Are you using nose-weight to compensate for a tail-heavy condition, and if so - how much weight? Also, what prop & battery are you using? Reason I'm asking is that the F4U needs a fair amount of speed to fly inverted reasonably well, and inverted flight is usually more difficult when the CG is too far forward.

That said, the UM F4U is just not very happy when flying inverted. The T-28, P-51, and Mossie are better inverted flyers, in my opinion.

Joel
The control horn setting is on whatever the stock recommendation is. I am using nose weight as it is unflyable without it. I am using a dime. CG may be too far forward, I wouldn't know. I just know it went from ridiculous porpoising to actually flying. I don't even know how a person would know all these things about planes.

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Originally Posted by wab25 View Post
It could be that you need less up elevator. This plane needs to be flown on the wing, not on the prop.

<rant on>
To many people are learning to fly with over powered planes. These planes can easily loop from level flight, accelerate vertically and hover. Because these planes can do this, many people learn to fly on the prop, without realizing what they are doing. When you flying on the prop, you are getting a large amount of lift from the prop. With these over powered planes, its easy to do, they have the power.

When you learn to fly on the wing, most or all the lift is produced by the wing, none from the prop. If you have an under powered plane, you must fly on the wing. I feel that people should learn to fly with an under powered plane, so that they learn to fly on the wing.

I learned to fly with the parkzone slo v, out of the box. By the time I learned to fly, I had replaced everything except for the stock prop, wing and battery. I did use the upgrade battery for a while, the 7 cell, but I really preferred the 6 cell it came with, and got more of those. Would it climb vertically? No. Would it loop from any situation? No. Could it do an out side loop? hover? No. However, if you built up speed going nice a straight, you could loop from level flight. If you learned how to maintain airspeed, you could fly it inverted. But you had to fly on the wing. (these were all done completely stock)

More people need to fly on the wing...
<\rant off>
I am wondering how many "bad corsairs" are actually corsairs being flown on the prop? My corsair is completely stock, 3 bladed prop and everything. She will do all the stunts in the promo video, as well as inverted flight and some really cool torque rolls. I do fly it on the wing though, and do have to build speed and momentum for hammer heads (which I do at about 85% throttle). But, this little plane is a great flier and very relaxing and fun to fly. Sure, I would like bigger loops, and a little more vertical performance. But, this plane is by no means a dud.
I have no idea what my Corsair is doing. Stock, it wouldn't fly. So I added a dime to the nose so it'll do something other than flip upwards into a drastic stall repeatedly. I can't build much speed with the thing, I don't even know how that would be possible. At 100% throttle the thing is barely moving and I have to give it down elevator so that it won't start pulling up. It's got an undercambered wing and a top speed equal to a lazy day's wind. I don't see how I could fly it any faster. I'd be impressed by anyone that can fly one of these on the prop. I pretty much just do circuits and sometimes when wind is favorable I can do a hammerhead. Loops are very tight because a big loop would just mean a stall. Roll rate is very slow, an aileron roll means a drop of ... 10 times the wingspan of the plane. It just loses all speed and dives.

Also, I don't understand why people are so mad about people flying on the prop. I guess some people like doing things with RC planes that real planes they can afford cannot do. Sorta like buying an RC Ferrari because you know you'll never own a real one.
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 07:40 AM
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Reading this thread is puzzling me- my Corsair flies just fine, didn't need a dime or anything for nose weight. Like a lot of WWII fighters it was sensitive on the elevator, so I used my trans to cut the throws to 70%. That made it really smooth flying. I fly it in winds around 10 mph or so and while the wind does blow it around a bit, I've never had a landing other than on the main gear. Mine flies along just fine at about half throttle, plenty of power to loop from level flight. Because I read that others were having trouble flying inverted, I tried that. It takes a good bit of down elevator to maintain level flight, but didn't have any problem maintaining it. The roll rate is slow to me, but very much scale so I'm happy with that. I am still using the 3 blade prop, since it cruises fine at half throttle I see no need for a prop change.

From what I'm reading, sounds like some of them just don't have really good motors. I must have got a good one.

The sensitivity issue makes me think that maybe those having that problem don't have a computer transmitter to dial down the rates.

It is hard to see how the airframes can all be so different, and that's what's puzzling me. There is one thing that may be different: I am using the ThunderPower 160 batteries as I seem to have absolutely no luck with the others. I have a couple other micro planes and so I am using batteries that I know really work well. Several of my other batts (1 TP, 1 HP, 3 EF) all are about useless- they fly the lightweight planes but really don't have good power output. And they go to low voltage "cycling" on the um bricks within 1 min of flying. The good ones seem to run a higher motor rpm and last a long time, especially at half throttle. Those are the ones I use in my Corsair. I'd hate to fly it on any of my other batteries.....

Perhaps a lot of the problems are battery related?
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Afraidtoregister View Post
Also, I don't understand why people are so mad about people flying on the prop. I guess some people like doing things with RC planes that real planes they can afford cannot do. Sorta like buying an RC Ferrari because you know you'll never own a real one.
I am not mad at all, if you want to fly on the prop. What does kind of get to me, is that there is a really great plane, getting a really bad rep because people are trying to fly it on the prop.

Read the post I quoted.
Quote:
Tried inverted flight. Ughhh. Champ is better at inverted. How do you guys fly inverted? I must need more up elevator, because at max input it was just losing altitude... until it smashed hard.
He is giving so much elevator, he is stalling the plane. His solution is to give even more elevator... he is hoping that the prop will provide enough lift to hold the plane up in inverted flight. With this plane, more elevator will make him stall faster and hit harder. He needs airspeed, so that the wing will produce the lift. To get airspeed, he needs less elevator, he needs the nose to come back down, near level.

This thread and the other are filled with people who have their plane suddenly drop out of the sky, for no reason at all. They blame the plane, the designers, the manufacturer, the quality control... everybody but themselves. If the plane is flying, and then suddenly drops out of the sky for no reason, they stalled the plane. Unexpected cartwheels are tip stalls. (the real corsair was known for tip stalling...) Its not the planes fault when the pilot stalls it.

I think the root problem is people learning to fly with a "propy" plane, so that they can "get out of trouble." That teaches you to fly on the prop. And many people don't even realize that they are flying on the prop. If that is the way you like to fly, great. There is a whole section of our hobby, devoted to flying on the prop, and there are some pretty amazing pilots who fly like that. We call that "3D" flying. Not all planes are 3D planes, not all are capable of 3D flight. That does not mean the planes are designed wrong, engineered wrong, or are not what they were advertised as.

This plane was not designed for 3D flight, it was not designed to be flown on the prop. It does not do these well. It was designed to be flown on the wing. It flies on the wing very well.

Quote:
The control horn setting is on whatever the stock recommendation is. I am using nose weight as it is unflyable without it. I am using a dime. CG may be too far forward, I wouldn't know. I just know it went from ridiculous porpoising to actually flying. I don't even know how a person would know all these things about planes.
Mine porpoised pretty good on the maiden flight as well. I used the elevator trim to bring the nose down, to level at about 70% throttle. No dime needed. Since then, she flies great, on the wing.

You don't know where your CG is, but you dramatically changed it by adding weight and still don't where the CG is. Further, you have no idea how a person would know. (do you mean how a person would know where the CG is or where it should be?) Yet, you conclude the plane is at fault. Thats the same as people stalling the plane, and then blaming the plane for their stall.

Hint: the instruction book that came with the plane, tells you where the CG should be. If the plane will balance on your finger tips, with you finger tips on the correct CG location, you have your CG correct. Where ever your plane balances on your finger tips, thats where the CG is. (one finger on each wing, same distance from the leading edge)
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 10:20 AM
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Wab, i agree with everything you are saying and appreciate your wisdom!

i think it's important to remind everyone that the corsair is not a 3D plane! and you are 100% correct - the REAL corsair was well known for tip stalling!

for me - i am using the dime weight as a crutch ... i am a beginner flyer and the plane is much easier to fly with the extra nose weight. and i am not expecting 3D type performance.

as i posted before - i am planning on dropping the nose weight in ~0.3 g increments until (hopefully) i can fly with no additional weight - after i repair my broken wing of course
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by telos81 View Post
Wab, i agree with everything you are saying and appreciate your wisdom!

i think it's important to remind everyone that the corsair is not a 3D plane! and you are 100% correct - the REAL corsair was well known for tip stalling!

for me - i am using the dime weight as a crutch ... i am a beginner flyer and the plane is much easier to fly with the extra nose weight. and i am not expecting 3D type performance.

as i posted before - i am planning on dropping the nose weight in ~0.3 g increments until (hopefully) i can fly with no additional weight - after i repair my broken wing of course
So, you are planning to fly a tail heavy plane? Good luck.

Sure would like to know what the CG's are on these planes these folks have mentioned that fly right out of the box. Fingers don't get it on these UM planes. You have to use some sort of CG machine to pinpoint the CG. Mine, 27mm with a 5043 prop and Hyperion 240 battery balanced on a very simple CG locator. I don't see many others knowing what the CG is on theirs other than the finger balance method. Mine was tail heavy out of the box no matter what others say or insinuate may be lack of flying ability.

There is nothing "wrong" with the Corsair. Even as an experienced pilot the Corsair is a plane you have to fly from take off to landing. It flies fine but is a plane that requires some flying experience. I like mine, it is a challenge and after getting the CG correct the plane flies as it should.

Allan
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 11:03 AM
Flyin' low & slow T-28s!
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wab, your opinion and info is most certainly welcome, but it comes across as quite condescending. Howz about explaining HOW to "fly on the wing".

You don't have to write us a book, but maybe a few quick tips so those of us who aren't certain (like me) whether they're flying on the prop or on the wing can differentiate 'tween the 2?

And there seems to be a good number of us who are experiencing a tail-heavy Corsair -- right out of the box. This is not a trim issue - it's a CG issue. Others are flying a well-balanced plane outa the box.

So folks are putting the dime under the cowl and their plane is flying straight.

My Corsair will not fly correctly without the added weight. Doesn't matter if you're flying on the wing or on the prop: it's dragging the tail around the sky and wants to just climb under 80-100% throttle. At 60% this creates a stall and what some call "porpoising."

So those who know their planes, study aviation, et al -- who have a plane that doesn't have this tail-heavy condition -- are convinced we're all doing something wrong, don't know how to fly, are flying off the prop, or flying out our a--es. Whatever the issue is, maybe those lucky enough to have a non-tail-heavy issue might attempt to understand our plight?
Please?

But I truly appreciate the advice from you and Joel. But we need tips...or links to tips. Resources that can explain what we can do to improve our flying.

BTW, while I enjoy the 5043 prop on my F4U (thanks, Joel!) I am really just a 60-70% low flyer who enjoys cruising. I would venture to say I probably fly off the wing. because I have never used the throttle to get out of trouble. (Unless I'm coming in wrong on an approach.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer View Post
So, you are planning to fly a tail heavy plane? Good luck.

Sure would like to know what the CG's are on these planes these folks have mentioned that fly right out of the box. Fingers don't get it on these UM planes. You have to use some sort of CG machine to pinpoint the CG. Mine, 27mm with a 5043 prop and Hyperion 240 battery balanced on a very simple CG locator. I don't see many others knowing what the CG is on theirs other than the finger balance method. Mine was tail heavy out of the box no matter what others say or insinuate may be lack of flying ability.

There is nothing "wrong" with the Corsair. Even as an experienced pilot the Corsair is a plane you have to fly from take off to landing. It flies fine but is a plane that requires some flying experience. I like mine, it is a challenge and after getting the CG correct the plane flies as it should.

Allan
+1 Well-said, Allen.
I think the prolem is they don;t understand and would have to actually OWN one of the tail-heavies to see what we're dealing with.

All I know is:
  • I had an issue.
  • I added weight.
  • It fixed said issue.
  • I am now enjoying the plane daily.
  • Issue solved.

The added wight is no crutch - it's a solution to a big problem we've been dealt out of the Parkzone deck.
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MaladroitFL View Post
wab, your opinion and info is most certainly welcome, but it comes across as quite condescending. Howz about explaining HOW to "fly on the wing".

You don't have to write us a book, but maybe a few quick tips so those of us who aren't certain (like me) whether they're flying on the prop or on the wing can differentiate 'tween the 2?

And there seems to be a good number of us who are experiencing a tail-heavy Corsair -- right out of the box. This is not a trim issue - it's a CG issue. Others are flying a well-balanced plane outa the box.

So folks are putting the dime under the cowl and their plane is flying straight.

My Corsair will not fly correctly without the added weight. Doesn't matter if you're flying on the wing or on the prop: it's dragging the tail around the sky and wants to just climb under 80-100% throttle. At 60% this creates a stall and what some call "porpoising."

So those who know their planes, study aviation, et al -- who have a plane that doesn't have this tail-heavy condition -- are convinced we're all doing something wrong, don't know how to fly, are flying off the prop, or flying out our a--es. Whatever the issue is, maybe those lucky enough to have a non-tail-heavy issue might attempt to understand our plight?
Please?

But I truly appreciate the advice from you and Joel. But we need tips...or links to tips. Resources that can explain what we can do to improve our flying.

BTW, while I enjoy the 5043 prop on my F4U (thanks, Joel!) I am really just a 60-70% low flyer who enjoys cruising. I would venture to say I probably fly off the wing. because I have never used the throttle to get out of trouble. (Unless I'm coming in wrong on an approach.)
Very well said !

Allan
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MaladroitFL View Post
wab, your opinion and info is most certainly welcome, but it comes across as quite condescending. Howz about explaining HOW to "fly on the wing".

You don't have to write us a book, but maybe a few quick tips so those of us who aren't certain (like me) whether they're flying on the prop or on the wing can differentiate 'tween the 2?

And there seems to be a good number of us who are experiencing a tail-heavy Corsair -- right out of the box. This is not a trim issue - it's a CG issue. Others are flying a well-balanced plane outa the box.
First off, my intent was not to come off as condescending, for that I apologize. Second, I have no issue with putting a dime or any other weight on the plane, if the reason is to get the CG correct. In the instance I was objecting to, the guy did not know where his CG was, or where it was supposed to be... yet he added a bunch of weight to move it, and still did not know where the CG was or how to even tell where it was...

So how to tell if you are flying on the wing or the prop... First, lets talk about flying on the prop. When doing this, you fly with a nose up attitude. Severe cases we call "high alpha" flight, extreme cases we call "hovering." Many people who learn to fly propy planes, end up flying slightly nose up, getting some portion of lift from the prop. This nose up attitude, essentially turns your entire plane into a big flap. There is a lot of drag (you are dragging the entire plane), which slows down the airspeed. When you combine that, with a plane that is not so propy, and a geometry that is known to have tip stalls... you are literally flying on the edge here. If the nose raises just a bit, from the already nose up attitude, the increased drag will slow the plane, robbing it of the portion of lift created by the wing. Without the propiness to hover, down comes the plane. The simple solution, push the nose down and keep it down.

Unfortunately, this nose up attitude can be very hard to see from the perspective of standing on the ground, with radio in hand. Especially, if thats how you learned to fly... that looks "right" to you.

So, how to fix or learn if you are dragging your plane through the by the prop. I had to think about this a bit. I thought of sending people out to buy and fly an underpowered plane (one that has less than 1 to 1 thrust to weight ratio) or just lowering the throttle on a plane you have. But there is an easier test/drill/practice maneuver. Get some altitude in your plane, shut the throttle off and dead stick the plane all the way down, then power on and climb back up. Repeat. If you are used to dragging you plane through the air, when you turn the prop off, it will be hard to fly the plane in the same attitude you are used to flying in. It will stall, and drop, recover speed, stall and drop... porpoising. If you are flying on the wing, that means your attitude is nose level or even slightly down. When you turn the prop off, your plane should glide quite nicely without porpoising. Sure, it will be losing altitude as the speed bleeds off. You should be able to deadstick the plane in, from 100 feet or more up in the air or more, without porpoising and have a nice gentle landing.

Now, once you can do that, and you turn the prop back on, keep the attitude the same. You should hit the same speeds you are used to flying at a lower throttle setting.

When I was learning to fly, on the slo v, it had much less thrust than weight. On the beginner boards here, there were and probably still are threads talking about the proper way to gain altitude and lose altitude. The proper control for altitude, is throttle. The control for speed is elevator. When flying an underpowered plane this is very apparent. You cannot climb with the elevator, you must climb with the throttle, keeping the plane in a nose level or slighty up attitude. Think about landing, you keep the nose down, and use the throttle to control altitude and the elevator as a brake. When flying on the wing, your whole flight should be like this. (at least the parts between the tricks) Instead of using the throttle to increase speed for your loop, go into level flight, with no "brake" (elevator) to build up speed, then loop....

Please note, that in order for you to do any of this, the plane needs to have the proper CG. If it takes a dime or bigger battery, thats what it takes. But you need to know where the CG should be, and where your CG is before adding weights. I am not asking people to fly a tail heavy plane. And, while the finger balance method is not as accurate as a CG locator, its what I use, and my fingers have been sufficient to get this plane in the air flying great.
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 01:37 PM
Flyin' low & slow T-28s!
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United States, FL, Vero Beach
Joined Feb 2011
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wab,
Thanks very much for taking the time to write all of that for us.

BTW, on page 11 of the Parkzone manual, it says that the Center of Gravity is 28mm behind the LE at the wing root. This is with a 150mah battery installed, it says.

I now have to go inside my Corsair and find out why the gears are grinding again. I suspect a cracked gear box.

I want to get the Corsair out watch closely how she (and I) flies. I will re-read your information a few times before I head out.

Many thanks!

Mac
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 01:42 PM
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I couldn't remember what the manual said, as far as CG location. If I remember right, I had a picture as well. First thing I did was put the battery on and test CG. I found I had to move it all the way forward, as everyone else said. On the maiden, the first few minutes were trying to miss the ground, while I got her trimmed. (a few clicks of down elevator and a few aileron clicks...) I have not checked again since, though I probably should. But, I have not had any issues flying...
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 01:50 PM
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wab25,

I also fly a PZ Vapor. High alpha flight is a good example of flying on the prop.

To get CG correct on mine when I first got it I had to tape the stock battery onto the bottom side of the cowling fully forward of the stock battery slot. Hyperion 240's, 7 grams, at the forward end of the enlarged slot puts the CG on my plane at 27mm and makes her a great flyer.


Allan
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wab25 View Post
...The proper control for altitude, is throttle. The control for speed is elevator. When flying an underpowered plane this is very apparent. You cannot climb with the elevator, you must climb with the throttle, keeping the plane in a nose level or slighty up attitude....
Thanks for the great info. I don't understand the part I quoted above. To gain altitude, don't you need to use up elevator with increase in throttle? Doesn't that mean you climb with elevator too? If not, does that mean you trim the plane so it will be level at a specific throttle position and anything over that, it will climb on its own with out elevator input? As for speed, I know down elevator gain speed since you trade altitude for speed, but how do you brake with out lowering throttle? Do you just give up elevator and have it climb and thus slow down?

thanks
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
To gain altitude, don't you need to use up elevator with increase in throttle?
No. The wing creates lift as it moves through the air. The more air that it moves through, the more lift it creates. When flying level, you are balancing the lift with the weight of the plane, using the throttle. To climb, you increase throttle, which increases the airflow over the wing which increases lift. This is how those 2 channel Airhogs planes fly. More throttle they climb, less throttle they come down, get it in the middle and they fly level.

Quote:
Doesn't that mean you climb with elevator too?
You can... provided your plane is propy enough. On an underpowered trainer, like the slo v, you can give a tiny bit of up elevator, but too much and you stall. Realize though, that as soon as you use elevator to gain elevation, you are now flying on the prop.

Quote:
If not, does that mean you trim the plane so it will be level at a specific throttle position and anything over that, it will climb on its own with out elevator input?
Exactly! Anything over, will make you climb, anything under will make you drop.

Quick tip to smooth out your landing, which I picked up here in a thread somewhere: When landing, to slow your rate of decent, add throttle instead of elevator. You will not gain speed, but will slow your rate of decent. (with practice you will find that it works quite well)

Quote:
As for speed, I know down elevator gain speed since you trade altitude for speed, but how do you brake with out lowering throttle? Do you just give up elevator and have it climb and thus slow down?
Yes. Elevator controls the pitch or angle of attack. If you raise the nose, you turn the whole plane into a flap, which increases drag as well as lift. Again, its a balancing act... too much and you gain altitude right before you stall. Do it just enough, and you slow the plane nicely. Think of flaring for landing.

When your nose is level, you are attacking the air in the most efficient way possible. You have the least amount of drag. If you raise the nose, you are adding drag by making a flap out of your plane. To build up speed, if you need to move more efficiently through the air. The same thrust will continue to accelerate you. When you have a propy rocket ship of a plane, it will always go faster level, than nose up.
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Old Jul 12, 2011, 02:37 PM
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I will attempt to explain as clearly as I can, I'm not often good at that!

If an airplane is trimmed for level flight at half throttle, it is maintaing a balance of forces. Thrust = drag and lift = weight and the airplane is in stable flight.

If you then pull the throttle back to 1/4 the plane will lower its nose and continue flying at the same speed. You don't have to touch the elevator.

Similarly if you are trimmed for level flight at half throttle and go to full throttle the airplane will raise its nose and climb while continuing to fly at the same speed. Again no elevator movement is needed.

Can you add up elevator and climb faster? Yes, but it will be at a slower airspeed. Can you push the nose down and dive faster? Yes, but it will be at a higher airspeed.

That's the confusing part- standing on the ground it is difficult to tell small changes in airspeed, hence the common feeling that climbing requires up elevator.

Does that make it a little clearer?

PS- you are exactly correct- to fly slower without changing throttle use up elevator to pull the nose up, the plane will slow down and eventually reach equilbrium again if it doesn't stall first. Becuase these micros have almost no inertia airspeed control is very difficult when there is too much elevator movement. That's the reson I cut my elevator movement to 70% and suddenly the plane flew much better.

Ken

Quote:
Originally Posted by jseeker101 View Post
Thanks for the great info. I don't understand the part I quoted above. To gain altitude, don't you need to use up elevator with increase in throttle? Doesn't that mean you climb with elevator too? If not, does that mean you trim the plane so it will be level at a specific throttle position and anything over that, it will climb on its own with out elevator input? As for speed, I know down elevator gain speed since you trade altitude for speed, but how do you brake with out lowering throttle? Do you just give up elevator and have it climb and thus slow down?

thanks
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