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Old Dec 10, 2012, 10:32 AM
Official Old Git!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EPPforFUN View Post
Ok, did you get on the nerves of the Phoenix-Support-guys with these issues once before?

My suggestions and questions were never been answered by them.

You could ask for example, when they will activate the UNDO-menu-item.

Maybe a year ago they told me that Creator will be enhanced and redesigned.
No - I've only just started using it.

However I think I will raise some question and see if I can get any response from them!
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 12:46 PM
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Hamburg
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I do not want to push you, but maybe the whole community could set up a list of questions and suggestions which you could send them. I think you, being a native speaker, could make yourself clearer than people like me writing dictionary-English.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 01:03 PM
Official Old Git!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EPPforFUN View Post
I do not want to push you, but maybe the whole community could set up a list of questions and suggestions which you could send them. I think you, being a native speaker, could make yourself clearer than people like me writing dictionary-English.
I'm happy to do that, Harald!

Most of the English translation you guys have done on your website etc is pretty good, but some bits of it is just slightly 'off'.

(Like using the word 'declination' instead of the more normal word 'slope'.)

I'll make some suggestions in a while, and if I can help trying to get some responses from the Phoenix team then by all means feel free to make use of me.

I may need help in understanding the particular problem, though, as I don't use 3D graphic software normally.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EPPforFUN View Post
Ok, did you get on the nerves of the Phoenix-Support-guys with these issues once before?

Maybe a year ago they told me that Creator will be enhanced and redesigned.
We are working as a team work on the RCRC Huntsville project.
May be tomorrow, I will be in the position of the distribution of the first version.
I will add the PXQ if EPPfor FUN agrees.

You will see a great many h-maps there, to construct the ground.

There are two statements:

EPPforFUN said that there is no sense to construct a Flying site until the panorama image is not correct.
I am adding, that there is no sense to work on a 3D design until the ground is not reasonable.
Some remarks:

1. Would not be good to collect our wish list about the new creator and send it to Phoenix?
2. My major concern is the lack of lock. At Metaseq, for instance, each object can be locked, not possible to modify any objects by chance.
3. I can explain why, but the "distance helper" is a very good tool.
4. The simulator is properly computing the distances, therefore if you have distance problem, it is because the ground is not good.
5. This ground construction is tricky: EPPforFUn can tell to you how many times I had to redesign Tempelhof,although the tilting of the scenery is not too big.
6. If I understood one of your comments, you had problems with the positioning of skylines. I have pointed to this problem some pages before. The pano orientation MUST not be used.
It is not possible at all around X,Z coordinates because of the cube mapping, and although it is possible to rotate around the "y", the relation of the 3D objects and the "skyline" -alpha mask position on the image (and water properties) is lost because those informations are derived from the cubemap.dds image which is made from the original cubefaces.
7. The use of at least one "plane" is recommended, because the size of h-maps is limited, the size of plane is infinite.
If no plane is used if the model is leaving the area covered by h-maps it is falling down to the infinity. I an using one but pushed down, as required.
8. The reason that the use of one h-map, in general, is not enough is that the number of the grid points is constant.
If the size of the h-map is large the resolution of the grid points is not adequate to solve various problems.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 05:31 AM
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I have some more comments:

1. Sometimes it is essential to rotate the scerenery, regardless if plane or h-map is used.

The reason for this is the following. If you have to tilt a plane or h-map the red, blue circles should be used. There is no indicatoin of the degree of rotation, as at PTGui.
If the direction of the tilting is decided, viewing the scenery, and this is not parallel to an axis of the plane or h-map manipulator, using basic trigonometry you could compute the rotation around two axes. But to make this by the tools available is not possible.
THEREFORE the only thing is to rotate the equirectangular image. It is trivial at stitching level, but not too difficult at equirectangular level.
For instance at RCRC Huntsville, I had to cut out a 250 pixels wide stripe at the right side and insert to the left side, to have h-map axis parallel to the runway.

How to find the proper tilting?

I am using a simple method. I am inserting a large cube properly oriented, at the required distance, measured on the site or reading Google Earth distance.

If moving up and down the plane, it is possible to see where the lower edge of the cube is disappearing below the ground, now you can tilt the plane or h-map until the lower edge is at a correct level.
See the Creator image at RCRC Huntsville. The runway tilting is ready, the left and front row of trees being made.
If you push down the cube until the red arrow is at level, you can see the height of that point.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 04:03 PM
Official Old Git!
Hampshire, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcsaba View Post
We are working as a team work on the RCRC Huntsville project.
May be tomorrow, I will be in the position of the distribution of the first version.
I will add the PXQ if EPPfor FUN agrees.

You will see a great many h-maps there, to construct the ground.
Icsaba,
Your English is quite good - but can at times be a bit confusing. I'll go through these appends and indicate some of the confusing bits etc to me.

Quote:
There are two statements:

EPPforFUN said that there is no sense to construct a Flying site until the panorama image is not correct.
I am adding, that there is no sense to work on a 3D design until the ground is not reasonable.
I think that's what you mean (the word 'not' removed). The ground needs to be reasonable before you can expect any 3D modelling to work.

Quote:
Some remarks:

1. Would not be good to collect our wish list about the new creator and send it to Phoenix?
You've made what appears to be a statement into a question (with use of the question mark), with is quite confusing.
I think you are saying "It would be a good idea to collect things we would like to see done as a 'wish list', and send it to Phoenix".

Quote:
2. My major concern is the lack of lock. At Metaseq, for instance, each object can be locked, not possible to modify any objects by chance.
OK, I think you are saying that we should be able to 'lock' any object to prevent any accidental changes.

Quote:
3. I can explain why, but the "distance helper" is a very good tool.
I have no idea how to use the distance tool!

I reckon it's needed (in the 2D view) in order to set the collision objects at the right distance away, so that the model looks the right size etc when it hits it.
I'd be grateful if you, or anyone, could explain simply how to get the distances right - maybe using the "distance helper" tool.

Quote:
4. The simulator is properly computing the distances, therefore if you have distance problem, it is because the ground is not good.
5. This ground construction is tricky: EPPforFUn can tell to you how many times I had to redesign Tempelhof,although the tilting of the scenery is not too big.
This just looks to me to be a general comment on getting things right depends on getting the ground right.

Quote:
6. If I understood one of your comments, you had problems with the positioning of skylines. I have pointed to this problem some pages before. The pano orientation MUST not be used.
I have asked Phoenix support about getting the ground collision plane correct with the cubes, and their response was to indeed use the plano helper!

Here's the text of the emails.

My email to Phoenix.

"Hi,

I'm attempting to get our local flying site into Phoenix (using Creator 2.5.b) on Win 7 64bit.

I have the cubes stitched, and added into a new project (and they look fine) but can't seem to get much sense using Creator (and I've looked at all the available documentation).

The first biggest problem I have is in setting a valid ground collision plane.

Whatever I do I can never get the collision object to occupy the visible ground area as displayed on the photo cubes.

When I export the initial attempt, then it looks like the scale is wrong - in that the model shrinks in size long before it should (in real life).

I have no idea how to correct this, if for example it requires adjustment of the icons (plano, distance) etc.

As placing any skyline objects seems to depend on the position of the ground plane object then that can't be set correctly until I have the ground sorted.

I'd be grateful for any pointers that would set me in the right direction."

The response from Phoenix.

"Hi Norman
Thank you for your email.

This type of problem occurs when you do not have the photographic panorama horizon aligned with the 3D virtual horizon (this can be seen if you create a plane collision object in the scene).

You can use the panorama manipulator arrows which are shown when you have the Panorama tool selected to move and align the panorama so that the horizon in the image is aligned with a plane created using the collision tool.

Once you have aligned the 2D and 3D horizons, you should find that your collision objects and models appear to be the correct size when flown in the simulator.

Best Regards
Phoenix Support

Quote:
It is not possible at all around X,Z coordinates because of the cube mapping, and although it is possible to rotate around the "y", the relation of the 3D objects and the "skyline" -alpha mask position on the image (and water properties) is lost because those informations are derived from the cubemap.dds image which is made from the original cubefaces.
7. The use of at least one "plane" is recommended, because the size of h-maps is limited, the size of plane is infinite.
If no plane is used if the model is leaving the area covered by h-maps it is falling down to the infinity. I an using one but pushed down, as required.
8. The reason that the use of one h-map, in general, is not enough is that the number of the grid points is constant.
If the size of the h-map is large the resolution of the grid points is not adequate to solve various problems.
This is too much detail for me to understand, as I know nothing about height maps or dds file details etc.
I have quickly looked at h-maps, but they look as bad, or worse to use than ordinary planes. And I don't particularly wish to have to specify the depth of the 'material' of the ground etc unless I can't avoid it.


Sorry for the rather long append...
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 05:05 PM
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All of your comments about my not correct English sentences are right.

Your problem is the simplest situation and the response of Phoenix is not correct.
A "plane" default setting is an infinite horizontal sheet.
Imagine that the ground is flat but it is a slope. In this case the plane (or h-map) which will form the "ground" should be tilted.

Please see my second posting and the image.
I am using a special "distance tool (helper)" a large cube. The cube can be made near to the centre, the size can be selected by using the basic grid or the distance helper of Creator.
This cube should be pushed to a characteristic distance for instance to the end of a runway, or to a row of trees, hangar. In our example up ur down on the hill and moved up or down accordingly dragging the green arrow.

If it is at a correct distance the plane should be rotated around one or two axes, until the lower edge of the cube is matching the ground, in this example the plane.

My lenghty explanation was about the fact that this is not easy if it is not enough to rotate around one axis.

In general the ground can not be approximated by one plane.
If the position of the pilot is at the lowets point of the scenery two planes can be used, tilted such a way that the remote point on both side are up relative to the pilote.
If the pilote (camera) is at the highest point, planes can not be used (infinite size).
In this case only h-map can help, because the finite size of it.

The Creator's distance helper is good if you know the size of an object, for instance a building, but don't know the distance of it.
Other good feature that can not be moved up and down sometimes it helps.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 02:30 AM
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Sorry, I have to add this:

Phoenix said: "You can use the panorama manipulator arrows which are shown when you have the Panorama tool selected to move and align the panorama so that the horizon in the image is aligned with a plane created using the collision tool."

I am saying two things.
1. My lengthy explanation above: this MUST not be done.
The reason is that the relation of the alpha masked cubemap image, and the 3D design is lost.
2. If you forget the need of this relation, this can be effective, in very extreme cases.
3. BUT in general this is not effective, here is the RCRC screen shot:


You can beleive me. The other side of this scenery looks like this.
The reason that the pilot is standing at the lowest point of the ground there.
Tilted planes should be used. Here can be done (I am using h-maps).
You can check this at your Flying site design.

If you think I might have a look at your scenery if I got the cubemaps.

It is not important but interesting, I am speaking Hunglish.
You said: I think that's what you mean (the word 'not' removed). The ground needs to be reasonable before you can expect any 3D modelling to work.

In our language we use: double negation.

The interesting and a good news, that Google knows this, and translate correctly.
Hungarian to English and vica versa.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 04:03 AM
Official Old Git!
Hampshire, UK
Joined Sep 2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcsaba View Post
All of your comments about my not correct English sentences are right.
No need to apologise! Your English is much better than my Hungarian!
I just wanted to clear up some confusing points.

Quote:
Your problem is the simplest situation and the response of Phoenix is not correct.
A "plane" default setting is an infinite horizontal sheet.
Imagine that the ground is flat but it is a slope. In this case the plane (or h-map) which will form the "ground" should be tilted.
I have tried the plane and have made it usable for my flying field.
In my case this may because my flying field is both flat and level (it's a carefully looked after cricket club ground).
Maybe that's why it seems to be working.
(I still need to carefully play with the plano tool and see what it looks like it does - none of it is obvious! Once I've done that I may be able to describe/document it's use. It's a shame that we never seem to be given detail on how to use these tools use - just a vague "use it". )

Quote:
Please see my second posting and the image.
I am using a special "distance tool (helper)" a large cube. The cube can be made near to the centre, the size can be selected by using the basic grid or the distance helper of Creator.
This cube should be pushed to a characteristic distance for instance to the end of a runway, or to a row of trees, hangar. In our example up ur down on the hill and moved up or down accordingly dragging the green arrow.

If it is at a correct distance the plane should be rotated around one or two axes, until the lower edge of the cube is matching the ground, in this example the plane.

My lenghty explanation was about the fact that this is not easy if it is not enough to rotate around one axis.
OK, I think you are saying that you make a cube as a collision object (which I haven't tried to do yet), and that you move it around to get the correct distance.
I guess you would need to continually export the setup, fly models etc at it and see if the collision occurs at the right place.
(If so, that is indeed a lot of work, and I don't see how you can easily move objects - I guess it needs to be in the 2D view.)

Quote:
In general the ground can not be approximated by one plane.
If the position of the pilot is at the lowets point of the scenery two planes can be used, tilted such a way that the remote point on both side are up relative to the pilote.
If the pilote (camera) is at the highest point, planes can not be used (infinite size).
In this case only h-map can help, because the finite size of it.
I don't know if this is true or not - but as I've mentioned my actual flying field is both flat and level.

Quote:
The Creator's distance helper is good if you know the size of an object, for instance a building, but don't know the distance of it.
Other good feature that can not be moved up and down sometimes it helps.
Again you are just telling me that it's a "good tool".
What I really need to know is how to use it (then I decide on if it is actually ' a good tool')
(In my case I do know - or can find out - the sizes of each of the main objects, pavilions etc)
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:28 AM
Official Old Git!
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More frustration guys!

I tried to create a cube - and followed the instructions in the tutorial ( from http://www.homepage-baukasten-dateie...en/step_04.pdf )

I can position the cube 'icon tool', but pulling on the square handles does absolutely nothing! They just return back when released (it doesn't even change the numbers on the axis of the tool).

This is just typical of all of the so-called tools, and is just plainly annoying.

Can anyone suggest what is going wrong and how to actually be able to use the tools?
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:03 PM
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Hamburg
Joined Mar 2004
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Quote:
If you press and hold the left "Shift" key on the keyboard, the arrow heads will be replaced by squares. With this square you can make your crash object longer, wider or thicker. To do this move the cursor to the little handle, press and hold the left mouse button and drag the mouse to the desired direction (do this in several small steps).
Did you read: "(do this in several small steps)"?

This is a very strange behaviour which I never saw in any graphics tool before:
Just twitch these handlers and see what happenes.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EPPforFUN View Post
Did you read: "(do this in several small steps)"?

This is a very strange behaviour which I never saw in any graphics tool before:
Just twitch these handlers and see what happenes.
Tiny steps, small steps, big steps - nothing makes a difference.

I'll try again... nope, nothing happens. Also same for spheres.

I obviously am doing something basically wrong (but there is little else that anyone could do differently).
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:16 PM
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It should work this way:

http://www.screencast.com/t/yqKT6Lvc454
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 04:08 PM
Official Old Git!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EPPforFUN View Post
Thanks for showing that - but Nope - never get a cube (red rectangle) created at all.

I checked on my XP system (same computer, different boot disk).
I installed Creator, and it also had the same problem (but with an older version of PhoenixRC installed).

I have noticed on the diagnostic log for the Win 7 system that I get the following, when I load the project..

Quote:
<lots of preamble stuff>
.
[pcProject_flyingsite- Creating reflection cube-map...Done
Loading: fixedWing.geo...
Resource not found: solidRed.bmp
failed: Error loading geometry - a texture resource was not located
You may need to reinstall PhoenixRC
Loading: helicopter.geo...
Resource not found: solidRed.bmp
failed: Error loading geometry - a texture resource was not located
You may need to reinstall PhoenixRC
Loading: arrow.geo...
Resource not found: solidRed.bmp
failed: Error loading geometry - a texture resource was not located
You may need to reinstall PhoenixRC
Loading: unitSphere.geo...
Resource not found: white.bmp
failed: Error loading geometry - a texture resource was not located
You may need to reinstall PhoenixRC
Loading: unitCube.geo...
Resource not found: white.bmp
failed: Error loading geometry - a texture resource was not located
You may need to reinstall PhoenixRC
Loading: unitCylinder.geo...
Resource not found: white.bmp
failed: Error loading geometry - a texture resource was not located
You may need to reinstall PhoenixRC
Loading: shinySphere.geo...
Resource not found: white.bmp
failed: Error loading geometry - a texture resource was not located
You may need to reinstall PhoenixRC
Loading: shinyCube.geo...
Resource not found: white.bmp
failed: Error loading geometry - a texture resource was not located
You may need to reinstall PhoenixRC
Loading: shinyCylinder.geo...
Resource not found: white.bmp
failed: Error loading geometry - a texture resource was not located
You may need to reinstall PhoenixRC
Loading: shinyPyramid.geo...
Resource not found: white.bmp
failed: Error loading geometry - a texture resource was not located
You may need to reinstall PhoenixRC
.
<post-amble stuff>
Strange as this is a fresh and up-to date PhoenixRC installation.

I'll do some more digging - but may ask Phoenix support..
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman Adlam View Post
I'll do some more digging - but may ask Phoenix support..
Have you made a cube near to the centre, and a little bit uplifted manipulator?
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