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Old Nov 23, 2011, 07:47 PM
OOPS
Manta1's Avatar
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no problemo Mr K.Sometimes we get too passionate over toys.Thankyou,apology accepted.
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Old Nov 23, 2011, 08:13 PM
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Bridgeton, NJ
Joined Mar 2009
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Originally Posted by mtwargo View Post
YOu can fly a lighter plane through the most demanding straight line manuevers... BUt with a heavier plane, it will never look as good in 3d. With straight iines, it's in the thumbs...
I disagree with this statement. What does the weight of the plane have to do with how well it will fly a straight line? Makes no sense especially if there are any winds where the heavier plane may very well have an advantage.

I have several 3DHS planes, several PA planes and 40+ other planes from different manufactures. I like variety for sure.

Pure 3D? Not sure the lighter plane is going to perform better here either. 3D is just a matter of flying the plane in a "stalled" manner. What is more important then lightness is the ability of the plane to hold firm and not "wing rock", etc. This is more design then anything else (assuming a good pilot).

IMHO, the "lightness" of the PA planes is it's own worse enemy. They just don't perform as well as a slightly heavier plane in the wind. They don't have the wind penetration behind them that a heavier plane will have and WILL get bounced around A LOT more. Can argue it all day long but it's just pure physics. The PA planes also don't perform maneuvers like any scale plane I've ever seen. Take a tumble for example, they will "flatten out" much quicker as they just don't have the momentum needed for some maneuvers.

With that said my favorite PA plane is the MX for nice lines (yep like it better then the Bandit). AdditionX for pure fun. But if you try and compare the MX at 58" to the Slick at 59" there is a world of difference between the two airframes size wise. The Slick is much larger then 1" in overall size in the air. The 59" Slick will fly like a much larger plane. When you take scale into affect the MX would be like a 51" Slick fuse (about 50") with the 59" slick wings attached. That's the way the MX was built/designed (oversize wings compared to fuse size). They typically have very large wings for the fuse size. To me it flys exactly that way also. It just doesn't have a "scale" feel to it. Of course they will be lighter per inch but will fly different and goofy in some respects also because of this. I don't want that to sound like a negative or a positive but it's just the way it is.

I know some think the Bandit has a bigger flight envelope but I don't see it. To me the complete envelope encompasses slow flight, fast flight, no wind, high winds, ability to carry through in tumbles, etc. I can fly any good aerobatic plane slow or as fast as the power system will allow. But how does the model perform in 10-15 mph winds with gusts which is pretty typical where I fly. On these days the 59" Slick will do much better then the 58" MX. It just doesn't get bounced around as much and is more stable. Same with the 3DHS 58" Extra (same size plane wing wise).

This is why I commented the "lightness" of PA planes can be it's own worse enemy. A slightly heavier all around model (actually overall bigger too) is easier to fly in the wind.

So I'm not dissing either manufacture. They are different. Apples to Oranges type thing. Different markets that just happen to both be 3D. What is somewhat disappointing to me however is that PA planes currently top out at 58" while 3DHS planes go all the way up to 126". PA only offers one size of each plane while 3DHS offers the "same" plane in various sizes and relatively they all fly the same only better with size as would be expected.

Another thought. Anyone wanting a plane that flys like giant scale planes will be sadly disappointed if they went from a MX to a 35% or 40% plane. They fly completely different. The 59" Slick will fly like a baby large scale. What I'm getting out here is that none of the PA planes are good "stepping stone" type planes for larger scale models. They just fly to different.

With all this said, for the record, my current favorite 3D plane right now is the 71" Slick. It's a 25% size plane that will fly better then any Aero Works or Carden 35% Extras I've even flown. Better then a 40" QQ Yak. Has a much lower cost factor which "allows" me to huck it on the deck and can handle any amount of wind I'd typically want to fly in.

Carlo
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 02:10 AM
How many planes is too many?
groovejet's Avatar
Melbourne, Australia
Joined Aug 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtwargo View Post
YOu can fly a lighter plane through the most demanding straight line manuevers... BUt with a heavier plane, it will never look as good in 3d. With straight iines, it's in the thumbs...
I would be interested to see what the EF and 3DHS team pilots think of this. Perhaps you could start a thread and post your views. I think it would be a very interesting read. Are you game Michael?
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 02:15 AM
How many planes is too many?
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Melbourne, Australia
Joined Aug 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kamikaze View Post
Hey Manta, Apologies I just re-read my post above and it reads a bit nasty. Sorry I was rushing between meetings and should have taken more time.

Regarding snaps and stuff I was always a bit of snapasaurus, in that my snaps were deep stalls that often ended in a hover. But more recently I've been watching 3D vids and really like the fast snaps with little flight speed loss and that are very accurate. On my two rate set up my snaps were deep and stally or big and barrelly

So on my Bandit I've just set up another rate of Low elev and rudder but about 90% of aileron and guess what. Fast non stalling snaps are now mine
Hey Brett, kudos for coming back and clarifying your post. It did read as a nasty one IMHO and I thought that was out of character for you, so thanks for clearing it up.

Congrats on the snaps too. I've found that my favourite snaps have just a touch of elevator. I don't care if the purists say it isn't a proper snap. I just love the super fast roll rate that full rudder gives and a whiff of elevator keeps the nose up without taking away too much speed.
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 03:42 AM
Jerry McFlyer-Show Me The Lipo
bring the thunda's Avatar
Australia, QLD, Gold Coast
Joined Dec 2010
49 Posts
I've never personally flown a Slick, but from all the videos I've watched of Slicks and having watched all the Bandit flight videos since it's release, I have to say that the Bandit has it over the Slicks easily.

Maybe PA just has better pilots
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 05:50 AM
Paul
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Tasmania, Australia
Joined Nov 2008
523 Posts
arrived

Bandit has arrived only took 4 days from ordering,
The family has taken it away an wrapped it up, only 30 more sleeps before I get to check it out.
I did notice that on the outside of the box, color was tick for RED, I ordered YELLOW hope this is a typo, will know in another 4 weeks “ that will seem like a life time”.
Cheers Paul
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 06:04 AM
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Bridgeton, NJ
Joined Mar 2009
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Since a lot of people need an EduCatsion, I think we all need to go back to Flight School 101!

Flight School 101 (6 min 10 sec)
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 08:59 AM
PA Team Pilot
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United States, FL, Orlando
Joined Oct 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cayars View Post
I disagree with this statement. What does the weight of the plane have to do with how well it will fly a straight line? Makes no sense especially if there are any winds where the heavier plane may very well have an advantage.


Carlo
Well, HOnestly, I fly in very high wind and low wind. JUst as a side note, if you watch video of the maiden flights of the prototype bandits Dan and I did, you will see them fly in 20mph winds plus... I really find very little relevance in the wind. Especially from model to model. You are very focused on it, I don't really want to go into a debate really about all of this. JUst let me say this... If you want to fly straight, your setup and skills are the first place you should check. IF you personally through experience had trouble flying straight with a pa plane and you can see others can, then it must be setup or something else. Not saying you can or can't fly straight, but often it is not identifying a need for adjustment for a little wind, or wrong throws or expo.

As far as the rest, you can go on for hours... but the bottom line watch my videos... I feel like The bandit performs everything well... If you are so inclined, go ahead and show me one of your videos having trouble with a pa plane maneuver, or how fantastic another performs, and I will offer an opinion, or if you find flaw with one of mine, I will tell you it was me that was inept, not the plane.
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 10:00 AM
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Bridgeton, NJ
Joined Mar 2009
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You quoted my comment on weight of the plane but your response had nothing to do with how a lighter plane can fly straighter lines which I is what I commented on. What I was getting at is just pure physics. The lighter the plane, the more turbulence and bad air is going to move the plane around. That just can't be argued with PERIOD.

I'm not saying the PA planes can't be flown in wind. Sure they can. It's more a pilot correction thing then airframe (to a degree). HOWEVER, the heavier airframe isn't going to get pushed around as much hence not as much correction needed which can make for a more pleasant flight.

I fly my PA planes in the wind a lot also. Pretty typical to have 15-20mph winds a lot where I'm at as he part of Jersey I'm in is between the Ocean and the Delaware Bay and we get different wind patterns coming in from both. We get a lot of gusting and shifting winds also. In the gusting winds you can really feel the difference in airframe designs and how they react to the bad air.

I really wasn't knocking the PA airframes but was trying to point out it's apples and oranges to other manufacture designs. Sort of a class of it's own. Not good or bad but just different.

I really don't have a problem flying any maneuver on my planes, BUT they need to be done differently. The lighter airframes don't carry momentum the same way most other planes do so you have to correct for it with the sticks. I'm using the term "correct" loosely here. Or put a different way many maneuvers need to be done slightly different on the sticks then with many other planes.

Yes, I agree we could go round and round on this for hours with no result. PA planes are built to be light. It's one of the designs of the airframes. I think they make great trainer 3D airframes. I own a few and wouldn't own them if I didn't like to fly them on occasion. However, as I fly bigger and bigger airplanes (up to 40%) I notice more and more how much different the PA planes fly then anything else out there. If I come from a bigger plane down to a PA plane it takes me a good battery pack to get back in "touch" with the plane.
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 11:52 AM
PA Team Pilot
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United States, FL, Orlando
Joined Oct 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cayars View Post
You quoted my comment on weight of the plane but your response had nothing to do with how a lighter plane can fly straighter lines which I is what I commented on. What I was getting at is just pure physics. The lighter the plane, the more turbulence and bad air is going to move the plane around. That just can't be argued with PERIOD.

I'm not saying the PA planes can't be flown in wind. Sure they can. It's more a pilot correction thing then airframe (to a degree). HOWEVER, the heavier airframe isn't going to get pushed around as much hence not as much correction needed which can make for a more pleasant flight.

I fly my PA planes in the wind a lot also. Pretty typical to have 15-20mph winds a lot where I'm at as he part of Jersey I'm in is between the Ocean and the Delaware Bay and we get different wind patterns coming in from both. We get a lot of gusting and shifting winds also. In the gusting winds you can really feel the difference in airframe designs and how they react to the bad air.

I really wasn't knocking the PA airframes but was trying to point out it's apples and oranges to other manufacture designs. Sort of a class of it's own. Not good or bad but just different.

I really don't have a problem flying any maneuver on my planes, BUT they need to be done differently. The lighter airframes don't carry momentum the same way most other planes do so you have to correct for it with the sticks. I'm using the term "correct" loosely here. Or put a different way many maneuvers need to be done slightly different on the sticks then with many other planes.

Yes, I agree we could go round and round on this for hours with no result. PA planes are built to be light. It's one of the designs of the airframes. I think they make great trainer 3D airframes. I own a few and wouldn't own them if I didn't like to fly them on occasion. However, as I fly bigger and bigger airplanes (up to 40%) I notice more and more how much different the PA planes fly then anything else out there. If I come from a bigger plane down to a PA plane it takes me a good battery pack to get back in "touch" with the plane.
The truth is, flying every plane is different. It's ability to tumble is airframe, not weight alone, A heavy plane with long moment won't tumble, conversely a light plane with a short moment will very well. the same with straight lines in most cases. IF you say a pa plane will flatten out when trying to tumble, do it with the mx, bandit... amr especially and it tumbles like crazy. Each differently because of airframe. Also, I fly large planes too. I have 40% planes and love them, but they are just different animals and really different flying all together.
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 01:06 PM
↓↘→ + (punch)
theKM's Avatar
central PA.
Joined Sep 2004
20,158 Posts
I wouldn't normally post in a PA thread... the trichotomy of the 3d forums and all... so I'll just apologise to everyone now.
...but Carlo is pretty much right.

The case and point is the SEFF 2011 3D Smackdown. Dan Dominguez came in 6th behind an assortment of 3DHS and Extreme Flight planes. Joe Smith, Dan Holman, myself, Donatas and RJ. That said, there was wind, and Dan was at a severe disadvantage because he was flying the Bandit. Now either all five of us pilots are better than Dan Dominguez, or he was trying to simply run a race with a handicap... personally, I don't think I'm as good as Dan Dominguez, he's darn good.

I don't know why all PA planes are marketed as all things to all people. They are the lightest, and they do fly great, I'm not posting this to deny that. Watch the videos, PA planes fly great, seen them in person, owned a couple before joining the 3DHS team. But being lightweight does indeed mean it's going to be thrown around more, that it wont be as precise, that it wont be as high energy in maneuvers, that the small fuselages wont help smooth out rolling harriers and such, etc etc. When I'm flying the big gassers, the plane will fly a higher energy tumble when the smoke tank is still full of oil... it's just how it is.

We had our recommendations for the 42" Slicks as being the lightest gear possible, but more recently we've all been having more fun with them carrying heavier gear. The recommendation has since changed. Light weight alone does not the automagic best flying plane make.



Just focus on the merits... lighter planes when flown in calm conditions will do a lot for a beginner 3d pilot; there will be less stress in trying things out, the lack of energy is less likely to continue a bad/lack of input into a bad situation, easier to abort, etc. But as your skills improve, energy and mass helps many maneuvers as well as flying in wind.



Anyways, apologies for my post, I promise to never do it again... back to the regular programming.
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 01:27 PM
PA Team Pilot
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United States, FL, Orlando
Joined Oct 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theKM View Post
I wouldn't normally post in a PA thread... the trichotomy of the 3d forums and all... so I'll just apologise to everyone now.
...but Carlo is pretty much right.

The case and point is the SEFF 2011 3D Smackdown. Dan Dominguez came in 6th behind an assortment of 3DHS and Extreme Flight planes. Joe Smith, Dan Holman, myself, Donatas and RJ. That said, there was wind, and Dan was at a severe disadvantage because he was flying the Bandit. Now either all five of us pilots are better than Dan Dominguez, or he was trying to simply run a race with a handicap... personally, I don't think I'm as good as Dan Dominguez, he's darn good.

I don't know why all PA planes are marketed as all things to all people. They are the lightest, and they do fly great, I'm not posting this to deny that. Watch the videos, PA planes fly great, seen them in person, owned a couple before joining the 3DHS team. But being lightweight does indeed mean it's going to be thrown around more, that it wont be as precise, that it wont be as high energy in maneuvers, that the small fuselages wont help smooth out rolling harriers and such, etc etc. When I'm flying the big gassers, the plane will fly a higher energy tumble when the smoke tank is still full of oil... it's just how it is.

We had our recommendations for the 42" Slicks as being the lightest gear possible, but more recently we've all been having more fun with them carrying heavier gear. The recommendation has since changed. Light weight alone does not the automagic best flying plane make.



Just focus on the merits... lighter planes when flown in calm conditions will do a lot for a beginner 3d pilot; there will be less stress in trying things out, the lack of energy is less likely to continue a bad/lack of input into a bad situation, easier to abort, etc. But as your skills improve, energy and mass helps many maneuvers as well as flying in wind.



Anyways, apologies for my post, I promise to never do it again... back to the regular programming.

I do not disagree with anything either of you are saying. More mass into maneuvers results in exactly what you suggested. This discussion was about other things, mostly flying straight in the wind, tumbling and A light plane being unable to compete. That is just not the case. Every plane with more weight will have advantages in some things. It s a matter of priorities, etc. My point was that my Mx and bandit etc, offer way more in the plus category in 3d especially. BUt, Aaron, it is hard to deny this, but Flying a plane a little too heavy is a pain to 3d. I have had the recent misfortune of having to do videos for planes with exactly that problem. I want to 3d and make it look effortless, and then fly straight. THe PA planes do that very well.

ON a side note, I think Dan's handicap was flying a small plane, not necessarily a light one. Most were flying much bigger planes. I think the best parts of his flight was because of the light plane. My Bandit wasn't flyable for the smackdown, but I would have not hesitated picking that to fly in the wind.
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 01:29 PM
PA Team Pilot
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United States, FL, Orlando
Joined Oct 2008
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JUst FYI... I talked with a couple judges in the Smackdown and they had Dan way higher... That means that light plane could have finished higher than most of the heavy ones even with the high wind if they all felt that way...
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 01:48 PM
CHOO CHOO
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Northern Indiana
Joined Jan 2009
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Darn Russian judge...
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 01:56 PM
OOPS
Manta1's Avatar
USA, GA, Cochran
Joined Jun 2008
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It was balzy to say the least to even enter that contest as windy as it was either way. Truth is, a paper light plane will be more of a handful than one with a little more mass. You just fight them more in he wind.Cayers is dead on.Nothing wrong with the Bandit, it is a good airframe.
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