Originally Posted by Chocula

Looking at the log files from my RAM3, my maximum sustained climbing rate under power is just under 300m / minute. In stock form, it is a bit under powered for ALES. A few modifications to increase the launch height, and I think the plane would be competitive.

-Chocula

I hope you don't mind a copied this above quote into the discussion at this link to add to the information about foam RTF/PnP gliders for ALES
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...8#post20452005

FWIW,

Tests on the Radian seems to show that a 45 to 55 degree climb angle gets the best height in the shortest time. What kind of climb angle were you using on your Phoenix II?

Depending on how much the Phoenix II motor can handle a small upgrade to the prop would probably do it. These results may be helpful.

On the Radian and Pro, the stock prop is a 9.75 X 7.75. The standard Radian, upgraded to a Graupner 10X8 gets it over the 200 meter mark in about 25 seconds.

On the Pro, an 11X8 and a battery upgrade to a higher C battery seems to get the job done too. The stock parkzone battery is a 15C. 25C seems to hold voltage a lot better.

I don't know about the typical amp draw of the Phoenix set-up but these might be worth a try.


I did see your post earlier about this test that you ran. If the motor is not getting hot but the ESC is maybe an upgraded prop would need an upgraded ESC too.


When tested on the bench, WOT with a stationary plane, it went from room temperature to too hot to touch is just under 10 seconds while drawing 18 amps at 12 volts from a bench power supply. I used the bench power supply as it has an amp meter built in, and my cheap multi-meters are only rated to 10 amps

I would estimate the angle I usually climb at to be close to 45 degrees. I have not done any scientific testing on this, visually selecting the steepest angle that it appeared to be able to maintain its speed at. I launch level and let it build up speed before climbing.

The batteries I have used are the stock one and an older 2100 mAh 22C Align battery that came with my TRex-450v2, neither of which have much "Oomph". I don't recall the motor getting particularly warm, only the ESC.

-Chocula

Thanks so much for the info.

Motor in the Phoenix is 1100Kv I guess it is time to start tweaking!

Any idea what recommended max amps for sustained and burst might be?

If you like aeajr, I could put the power system on a meter, and may be even stress test it with mix or prop and battery. I have been flying mine since the first day of release, I guess it is time to mod it. HA!

I will tell you one thing, the Phoenix is much stronger than the eflite. I had a mid-air with one, and I won.

Tim, that would be great. It is not for me as I don't have one of these aircraft. However a series of tests and reports like that would be a great service to other Phoenix II owners an to potential new Phoenix buyers.

I have had my eye on this model for some time. I do a lot of teaching and I am always looking for a good RTF or PnP starter plane for those who are interested in gliders. And for those with R/E/T planes like the Radian, this might be a great first aileron TD glider.

Finally, I have a growing interest in the ALES, altitude limited electric soaring contest format. Many people have been getting into it with Radians which seem to be just about a perfect way to get into ALES. It would be great if we could show that the Phoenix II would also be a great entry level ALES RTF/PnP package.

So, to do here is what we need to know about the Phoenix II.

1) Can it reach 200 meters in 30 seconds or less in stock form? There was a report about this earlier in the thread. That is the key to the ALES format. Everyone starts at the same height. Unlike the LMR soaring formats where people were spending a fortune on motor systems to go out of sight in 15 seconds, in ALES you don't need a monster motor system. You start at 200 meters. Everyone starts at 200 meters. Then it is all about thermal soaring. We are finding there are some RTF/PnP planes that can fit perfectly into this format. Stock Radians are showing up in droves.

2) Understand the power system and see how it can be tweaked inexpensiviely with a simple prop change and maybe a battery change. Once you start replacing the motor and ESC, I don't consider that a simple change. The goal is to achieve #1.

3) How well does the Phoenix II thermal? Could a pilot with a Phoenix II be competiive with a pilot flying an Easy Glider, Radian, Radian Pro or similar foam gliders? Can s/he run with the pack? If the answer is yes, then skill can take him ahead of the pack and skill development, more than winning, is what contest flying is all about.

I don't see these competitions as being about beating the other guy or even winning. To me they are great social events and a great way to improve one's soaring skills. Then you can measure your progress by how well you do in the contests. You can finish dead last and still have a day of personal bests! The value of the contest format is you can see how much better you could do with a little more practice and a little more learning. This will improve your fun/sport flying as well.

So, to me contests are a super fun way to learn and to grow as a pilot. And if the Phonex II can meet the ALES climb requirements out of the box, or with some minor tweaks, then you can go to the store, buy one, drive to the field and enter the contest. Radian pilots do that today. I wonder if Phoneix II pilots could do it too.



Thanks for the offer Tim. I very much look forward to your reports.

Aeajr, I'm not a expert in modifying motors or things of that sort.But the Phoenix doesn't like a whole lot of power...at all. "I" think that the system is adequate if you ask me. That's my 2¢ on that.

Why would you think the phoenix does not like power?

Steve and I have tried it. Results may vary from unit to unit. All I know is that our two planes exhibit erratic tendencies when power was applied.

Steve's plane flies smoother than mine. To remedy my "less than" smoothnes, I use spoilerons and I have to say that that did the trick. I've gotten that idea from someone here on this thread a year or two ago. Can't remember who tho..but thank you!

Erratic tendencies? What would it do? What kind of power are you applying?

Well, what I mean is it gets unstable or becomes a handful to manage. Its a surprisingly aerobatic when it wants to be and loops are the tightest. Its a great glider don't get me wrong. We find it's not a hands off of a glider. Or a glider that's so stable, that it can practically fly itself. I find that "my"plane need constant correction. Not the type of correction as though the cg was off, but the type you have in a small stall when flaps are deployed and there's hardly no lift. If you know what I mean. When flying my clouds fly, I can point it in a direction and let go of the radio. That's how stable it is. But I do fell that the Phoenix has a little more camber than it needs. ..........again, the Phoenix is a nice flying glider in its own right hands down. That's my observation.

hmm. Interesting. I guess with foam airplanes things are not consistent?

Well I have yanked the motor out of the Phoenix and stuck it on to my thrust meter. I will hook everything up tomorrow to get numbers from the stock set up, then start changing props and collecting data. once done with that, I will install the stock propeller and toss a 4 cell pack at the set up and see what holds up.

Thanks Tim, I hope you find a true potential of this motor.

Originally Posted by TimJohnson

If you like aeajr, I could put the power system on a meter, and may be even stress test it with mix or prop and battery. I have been flying mine since the first day of release, I guess it is time to mod it. HA!

I will tell you one thing, the Phoenix is much stronger than the eflite. I had a mid-air with one, and I won.

Tim, did you ever put the meter on? What I am looking for is something north of 100 watts/pound to have any applicability for ALES. ALES is altitude limited electric soaring competition. It is exploding, especially among the foam glider crowd. Easy Gliders, Radians and Radian Pros are dominating the field when it comes to numbes of pilots entering the contests.

What we ahve been seeing pretty consitently is a power/weight ratio of 125+ watts/pound or higher will hit the 200 meter mark in 30 seconds with the right prop. More is fine but this seems to be just enough.

I would like to recommend the Phoenix II to my club members but it has to have known climb performance to hit or be near ALES performance levels. We know them for the Radian and the Radian Pro.

What has been done on the Radians is to up the prop size slightly. Stock Radian prop is 9.75 X 7.75. for about 17 amps from a 1300 mah 15C battery. You hit about 160 meters in 30 seconds. That is good enough to be in an ALES contest but you give up 40 meters in launch height.

If you go to a 20+C battery you get a little better climb because voltage holds better. My testing with 1500 25C packs shows about 170 meters in 30 seconds with stock prop.

By going to a Graupner 10X8 and a higher C rated battery it goes to about 19.5 amps and 230 watts. You hit the 200 meters in 28 seconds on a 45 to 60 degree climb. I went to 1500 mah 25 C battery. Total upgrade cost was about $12 for the prop and $20 for the battery. Not a lot to get the boost. Some are going lighter with 1000 mah 45 C batteries.

As a result of the testing and documentation of these changes the Radian has been wildly popular for ALES contests. Probably 1/2 the planes flying ALES are Radians, and many being flown absolutely stock.

Now, if we knew the Phoenix's performance in stock form, that would help. And if the Phoenix could be tuned to this level of performance with only minor tweaks it too could become popuar for this format, adding ailerons that the Radian lacks.

FYI, Radian Pro has been getting similar tweaks to get it to ALES standards. Adding a little bigger prop and improved battery it too can hit the altitude target in 30 seconds. I think they are putting 11X7s or 11X8s on the Pro for about 22 amps, or something like that. I don't have one. Not hearing about motor problems.

So, who is going to step up and get this Phoenix II up to ALES standards to hundereds of people will want to buy them?