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Old Aug 01, 2003, 10:26 AM
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Bush blames job losses on America's lacking of skills.

The inexorable outsourcing of even high tech jobs, elicited a response from Bush. He said that it is because we lack skills. Hidden microphones at IBM revealed that they intend on killing 10% of their high tech jobs as they move them to the lowest bidder. H1B foreign worker permits are being raised even as we suffer record unemployment. Even those still with a job face losing their overtime pay. It is enough to lose our jobs, but when the president insults us by saying it is our own fault, that is too far. Carter was destroyed by blaming the people for economic conditions. Isnt it time we debate the wisdom of globalism where destroying our middleclass is concerned. America as third world country does noone any good. If someone has any reasons why this race to the bottom is good policy, please enlighten us.
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 12:30 PM
God is good
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Banjul
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G,

Have you seen what the HS are turning out lately??

It's amazing there are college students at all today.

30 years ago these students couldn't even get admission in a Jr College with an "open door policy".

V
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 01:27 PM
Baboon McGoon
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Regarding the President Bush's comment that America's workers lack skills (apart from the fact that its nonsence), he certainly speaks from his own personal authority when he makes stupid, insulting statements like that. As far HS students are concerned, who's to blame them for not striving when our own country allows so many good jobs to get exported overseas?! (Who needs a good education to flip burgers?!) Protectionism though it may be, US corporations shouldn't be allowed to export so many good jobs overseas both for economic and national security reasons.
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 02:01 PM
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Much as I hate to agree with dunderhead "W", I'm gonna hafta go with him on this one. While Asian countries turn out enginners we turn out lawyers. I can't tell you how many people I work with that can't do basic algebra.

Buying American would help but even with as much patriotism as everyone claims to have who actually does it? I quit buying Levi's 501s when they started being made overseas. I now buy Faded Glory jeans at Wal-Mart cause they are made in the USA and are only $15. Faded Glory, ain't that about the truth. Seriously who will go without if they can't find a product made in the USA or who will spend twice as much to get something made in the USA? I'll be the first to admit that it is not me. If something is close in price I'll by the American made one. Bought a Smith instead of a Brother one time cause the Smith was made over here. The Brother was actually a better typewriter cause it had a memory to store extra dictionary words where the Smith did not. I usedta cuss this country everytime my darn typewriter beeped at me for a correctly spelled word. I don't do it anymore. May the best product win. If America can't compete why should I suffer?

I currently drive a Ford and a GM, my next car will likely be a Toyota. Sign me fed up with crappy American made products.
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 03:45 PM
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I agree. The hope scholarship is a joke, as you have to maintain a "B" average to qualify, and you can graduate from any public highschool in the Union without even knowing how to read. I graduated with people who I wasn't even sure had a pulse.

As long as we keep lowering the educational standards to keep from hurting anyone's feelings, we will continue to produce highschool graduates who are no smarter than the diplomas they hold.

I am totally with Dude on the point about american products. There is a ginormous ford plant in Atlanta, and I occaisionally hear people gripe about commies like me who drive Japanese cars. My only response is "Make a car as reliable as my honda, and I'll buy it."
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 03:57 PM
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Make a car as reliable as my honda, and I'll buy it."

Are you aware that I and many americans have made toyota parts. Almost got hired at the toyota plant in silicon valley but for the gm strike. The problems are not our smarts. They are greed of those looking to cut the bottom line whilst cutting our throats. Offshore incorporation. Wars to keep a pool of cheap labor and materials. Competing against countries that subsidize their industry with the latest manufacturing aids often times helped by us. While we have to do it the old fashioned way, chargeit. If education was the thing standing in the way of america making big bucks, you had better believe that this and every admin would be giving it away to anyone with at pulse.
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
The problems are not our smarts. They are greed of those looking to cut the bottom line whilst cutting our throats.
While I agree that greed is a problem, it is a normal part of the capitalist system most everybody thinks is so great around here. In fact a pure capitalist system runs on greed. Greed greases the gears of the capitalist machine.

Getting back to the workers....If our workers worked as good and cheap as foreign workers the "greedy" companies would not have any reason to go labor shopping. Am I willing to pluck chickens all day for minimum wage? Heck no! Am I upset some illegal workers come from Mexico and take these jobs away from "hard working" Americans? Heck no twice! I say good for them if they are happy plucking chickens.
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 04:39 PM
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As someone who just moved cross-country to a major metropolitan area and who has been looking for a job for a while now, I attend a job group with about 50-75 people; most of whom are experienced (and very well-educated) IT professionals who have been laid off largely due to the use of cheap labor overseas. Meanwhile, American corporations blithely go on firing employees (and hence their customers for their products) to please investors and we wonder why our economy is stagnant. For example, semi-conductor plants once located here in the USA, have now relocated to China leaving countless bright Americans wondering how to feed their families. With all due respect, some of the comments made above bespeak of nothing more than ignorance. Neither blue jeans nor automobiles are the pinnacle of technology. However, the truth of these comments is that corporate America has to a large degree abdicated its responsibility to be the best. Moving it overseas is a cop-out for the ignorant and greedy that our well-intentioned but similarly ignorant President has bought from his corporate cronies hook line and sinker. Is there any wonder why our economy is moribund? BTW, I'm a patent attorney. In my business, I have to be an engineer and scientist, as well as an attorney. And nobody ever gave me a free ride.
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 04:42 PM
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While I agree that greed is a problem, it is a normal part of the capitalist system

My tax money is used to create many of the situations you believe natural. Our military is used to maintain an advantageous trade climate. Money is used to subsidize research. Fund capital purchases of other countries. Run an H1B program. It's not because those countries are stupid that they are such a bargain.



[ Am I willing to pluck chickens all day for minimum wage]

We're talking about our best jobs. High tech is going away. Manufacturing is going away. Many service jobs are going away. When there's no more middleclass, there is no more need for serving burgers as we'll be making beans and rice at home. The goose that laid the golden egg will be cooked for those greedy enough to follow this path. If not for affluent americans, who are those things going to be made for.
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 05:39 PM
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some of the comments made above bespeak of nothing more than ignorance.
With all due respect: Said the jobless one to the gamefully employed.

Sorry that was a low blow but I couldn't help myself. Somewhere at my house I have a letter from the ecomomics department of the university I attended asking me to change my major from engineering to economics because I did so well in micro and macro. Shoulda done it too cause economics is easy compaired to engineering. Your own words describe the problem.
Quote:
IT professionals who have been laid off largely due to the use of cheap labor overseas.
If the workers overseas were so bad the companies would loose money by using them. The truth clearly is that the overseas workers are willing to do more for less. This has been the case for as long as I've been an adult. Pretty much all the grad assistants at my engineering college were from somewhere overseas. No self respecting American would do so much work for so little pay.

This might open a whole new can of worms but this exact topic is the problem with Unions. Unions are great for representing employees but not so great for companies if they go to far. If a company pays it's labor too much more than another company, then the company paying less will be able to sell more of their widgets and the company paying too much will loose market share and evenutally go out of business.

What would you do if you ran a big ole "greedy" company and had to choose between American labor and Mexican or Chineese labor at a lower rate? If you say American what are you gonna do if company B uses cheaper labor then you?
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 06:16 PM
Baboon McGoon
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Without trying to diminish the "fun" of this exercise, your attitude lakedude therein defines the problem at hand. BTW, when I am gainfully employed and you are laid off and struggling because your engineering job has been exported overseas, I'll be kind enough not to throw it in your face. Economic circumstances have been kinder to you than many to whom you now lord yourself over. Rather than gloating over it, you should be darn grateful! Gman2 posed a legitimate concern. Perhaps, you shouldn't dismiss it so lightly through your superior attitude as perhaps your employer might someday dismiss you.
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 06:48 PM
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I'm sorry again, that was really not fair. I am greatful' and may well loose my job as well. Things around here are worse then they ever have been. In fact I just tested for a whole group of other jobs, just in case.

In my defence I never would have stooped so low had you not implied that I was ignorant.
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 06:56 PM
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Here's the Test:

Go into a McDonalds. Order lunch.

>>>Challenge the kid behind the register to make change without using the computer register.<<<
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 07:26 PM
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Tim

I'm sure someone will find your test unfair or racially biased in some way but I think you hit the nail on the head.
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Old Aug 01, 2003, 07:43 PM
Radix malorum est cupiditas
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I think 'dudes point needs more discusion - what good does it do company A to stand on principle and keep jobs in the US if company B uses its lower ofshore cost to price it's (equally good) products where company A cannot. Company A wil shortly be out of business - liberal heart or not.

this happens all the time

so the theory today is to engage in free trade - and so far this has worked with the US able to import massive quantities of cheap goods while maintaining an unemployment rate lower than most other countries (and absorbing 36 months straight of job losses in the manufacturing sector).

but as this goes on, the relentless export of jobs cannot be sustained forever and US unemployment is rising.

today, all of our trading partners are debasing their own currencies (selling theirs, buying ours) to keep their products cheap in the US.

the massive buying of US treasuries (they have to do something with the paper we send them) also keeps the interest rates in this country low, keeping the cycle going.

is this all worth while ???

the pay-off has to be a bigger world economy with increased consumption in Japan, China, Mex. etc. or it will be for nothing.

As our trading partners finally allow the dollar to sink, their markets must absorb the goods produced locally and accept the relative increase in US exports as well.

the theory is possible, the outcome is still very uncertain.
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