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Old Feb 03, 2013, 08:33 AM
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Great video. I love flying my cessna. Be careful if you do any loops with this plane. The wing struts / supports or the hook thing that is connect to body and wing. One of mine came off going into the loop and nearly folded my wing. I recommend using some stronger glue than the one supplied . Upload more vid soon
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 12:00 PM
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United States, FL, Orlando
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2.75" dubro super light. (any bigger arnt really scale)
Imovie I think its called. my friend ran the software.
I havnt done any hard positve g's yet, but I reinforced the strut attachements with
CF rods. will post pics later.
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 01:22 PM
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Mods etc

Highly recommend removing nosewheel control arm and using thin CA to glue the metal inner piece to the plastic arm. This will form stong composite piece. It is way too weak otherwise. Mine broke and I had to glue it together that way. Took sanding etc that would not have been needed had I glued it before hand.

I think that motor mount I lightened really helped save the firewall. I had put the cut out metal peices in nose, 2200 batt all the way forward, but still maybe 5 mms tailheavy of recommended. Tried to abort slow flaps takeoff and come around to land to answer phone. Dont try that the least bit tailheavy lol. Left wingtip hit grass first (no damage). You can see where spinner plate pushed into cowl. Only damage was motor mount, cowl, and prop adapter. Mount was easy to straigten. Had to order a couple of prop adapters.
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 02:03 PM
Exodus 4:13
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United States, FL, Davenport
Joined May 2012
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Originally Posted by el touristo View Post
Highly recommend removing nosewheel control arm and using thin CA to glue the metal inner piece to the plastic arm. This will form stong composite piece. It is way too weak otherwise. Mine broke and I had to glue it together that way. Took sanding etc that would not have been needed had I glued it before hand.

I think that motor mount I lightened really helped save the firewall. I had put the cut out metal peices in nose, 2200 batt all the way forward, but still maybe 5 mms tailheavy of recommended. Tried to abort slow flaps takeoff and come around to land to answer phone. Dont try that the least bit tailheavy lol. Left wingtip hit grass first (no damage). You can see where spinner plate pushed into cowl. Only damage was motor mount, cowl, and prop adapter. Mount was easy to straigten. Had to order a couple of prop adapters.
I'm pretty sure that lightly sanding the lizard skin will get it looking more like normal. Take your time and clear your paper very very often to keep the foam from galling. Great job on the dubro 1/2A compound bend. I used to HATE doing that, before I got a $30 table vise. If you're going to be scratchbuilding or doing anything with wire that thick, even .047 wire, it's so helpful to keep your landing gear wire bends a. easier and b. straighter.

By the way I like your flying field, except the bumpiness - Baldwin Park is a great area. I used to take my dog to the dogpark off of Lakemont, and visited the FedEx very frequently for a job I used to have.
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 02:52 PM
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Yeah I also have a new plain cowl I ordered along with the prop adapters. I thought I might have one with speakers, one without. I havnt odered the Benedini equipment yet but I really want to. I havnt tried sanding I think EPO is not going to sand too well but it might help idk. I dont want to make it dirty cuz I dont really want to bother with paint at this time. I think some have tried filling and sanding (+paint). I have some of that Hobbylite filler I used on my eflite beaver nose behind firewall.(crashed it pretty much same way lol) It works great on balsa but Idk if it will stick to EPO. I think it would flake off badly as foam flexed. Heard of people using CA dont want to do that mess for this. I know there's a website that sells a filler for foam but there's a minimum order etc. I thought of even trying a covering iron to see if the right temp and pressure would flatten them. Prob wont work but might try. I tired a couple of irons but settled on the Coverite 21st century. The temp control works well for me dont like any other. But I dont do much covering stuff. Getting more into EPO. But the bumps dont really bug me too much so Im not jumping on it at the moment. Im not so much a close up scale freak for now more of a funscale from 10ft away kinda thing. Think I will whiten the servo rods etc under wings though. This plane looks pretty convincing, want to give it sound. I wonder if any real planes ever have the wing stripes Im thinking of removing them they dont look like they would be on fullscale. Baldwin down by the lake is great open area. Its rectangle but the wind is often mostly on axis.
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 05:45 PM
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You wanna approach as slow as possible. Keep the nose up and blip the throttle at times to keep out of stall....drop flaps as low as possible too...I only need a 50 foot length to land in and I don't have flaps on mine
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 12:20 AM
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Slower landing are the most fun IMO but more danger of stall and less control flow. Easiest landings are with a little power guiding it down without flaps instead of letting it drop down like no power landing. I think flaps can increase danger of stall in a few ways. Stall speed is slower, but to level off or slow decent then requires greater elevator throw due to lower speed (which also induces greater drag) and requires greater AOA on wings to get same amount of lift vs higher speed so you can then just instantly jump below flap stall speed more easily. But at slightly higher speed with no flaps you dont have that going on as much. So you can actually land smoother and control rate of dencent better at higher speed without flaps. It just takes more distance. All that is part of why I think it best to not use flaps if there's much crosswind as you need better aileron control too then beside the above issues. I think CG is the biggest factor for smooth+slow landings. Good cg and it will 'mush'. Too far back and it will 'wag' and stall, drop a tip and even go in. People sometimes call that tip stall, but it isnt. The whole wing is at stall speed/AOA and its almost just chance which one drops. With the cg back a little I could put flaps on full, cut thottle, level no trim elev and it would literally land itself hands free with a long slow glide, but a fairly high rate of decent. I thought that was 'neat' but it's not really what you want. It's just bad. With power it should climb with flaps of course, but with no power it should not maintain a higher than level attitude at least. I may try a tiny amount of down elev mix with flaps, but its only under higher throttle that I actually have to hold any down elev. There's risk in using that mix because with power it will make a tailheavy plane not seem as much so but when you drop power it turns into a kite lol. After all this I feel I have a much better understanding of what good and bad CG is and what each feels and looks like, and what it means in terms of handling, safety, etc. I'm glad becuase it was more conceptual to me before and I didnt have a full, practical grasp of it. It makes sense when you really get it. Messing around with Phoenix sim and shifting the CG there also helped me understand. It does a good job of showing it. You can move it to extremes you would never do and it more dramatically illustrates what's happening. Put it way back and lots of funky stuff happens -like it will do spins that it would never do. Lot's of talk about CG. But its something you really need to know intimately. Many planes are quite sensitive to it. 3D planes not as much because they can just power out of trouble. I learned on 3D so I've had CG and slow flight issues on scale planes.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 12:41 AM
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wheelbrake

FMS skytrainer brake action (0 min 13 sec)


FMS skytrainer stopping with wheelbrake (0 min 12 sec)
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 01:28 AM
Exodus 4:13
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United States, FL, Davenport
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Originally Posted by el touristo View Post
Slower landing are the most fun IMO but more dangerous because there's more danger of stall or more often just less control flow. Easiest landings are with a little power guiding it down without flaps instead of letting it drop down like no power landing. I think flaps can increase danger of stall in a few ways. Stall speed is slower, but to level off or slow decent then requires greater elevator throw due to lower speed (which also induces greater drag) and requires greater AOA on wings to get same amount of lift vs higher speed so you can then just instantly jump below flap stall speed more easily. But at slightly higher speed with no flaps you dont have that going on. So you can actually land smoother and control rate of dencent better at higher speed without flaps. It just takes more distance. All that is part of why I think it best to not use flaps if there's much crosswind as you need better aileron control too then beside the above issues. I think CG is the biggest factor for smooth+slow landings. Good cg and it will 'mush'. Too far back and it will 'wag' and stall, drop a tip and even go in. People sometimes call that tip stall, but it isnt. The whole wing is at stall speed/AOA and its almost just chance which one drops. With the cg back a little I could put flaps on full, cut thottle, level no trim elev and it would literally land itself hands free with a long slow glide, but a fairly high rate of decent. I thought that was 'neat' but it's not really what you want. It's just bad. With power it should climb with flaps of course, but with no power it should not maintain a higher than level attitude at least. I may try a tiny amount of down elev mix with flaps, but its only under higher throttle that I actually have to hold any down elev. There's risk in using that mix because with power it will make a tailheavy plane not seem as much so but when you drop power it turns into a kite lol. After all this I feel I have a much better understanding of what good and bad CG is and what each feels and looks like, and what it means in terms of handling, safety, etc. I'm glad becuase it was more conceptual to me before and I didnt have a full, practical grasp of it. It makes sense when you really get it. Messing around with Phoenix sim and shifting the CG there also helped me understand. It does a good job of showing it. You can move it to extremes you would never do and it more dramatically illustrates what's happening. Put it way back and lots of funky stuff happens -like it will do spins that it would never do. Lot's of talk about CG. But its something you really need to know intimately. Many planes are quite sensitive to it. 3D planes not as much because they can just power out of trouble. I learned on 3D so I've had CG and slow flight issues on scale planes.
How big are your throws? Mine lands really slowly with the flaps and even a crosswind doesn't bother it that much. You do need a lot of elevator control. Being a 3d guy you should be used to the left stick - if you rudder your way into the wind , you can still flare quite nicely with the flaps dropped. The stock aileron throws are tiny and in my opinion pretty useless. Also, I avoid mixing down elevator with flaps because you lose control throw. A 20% down elevator with flaps mix will keep it from ballooning, which really only happens because you're going too fast when you deploy the flaps, but it will also cut your max up elevator for adjusting angle of attack and flaring for landing. Plus if you have a good radio with servo speed adjustments it's invaluable to sloooowwww the flap deployment down.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 03:36 AM
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yeah I dont care about flap balooning. I use rudder but if crosswind catches wing its hard to recover. just depends on how much wind we are talking I guess. In the video there was plenty of wind (but not cross), and it was a bit tailheavy, and landing with flaps and even dead stick. It's a really forgiving plane. But it does have its limits of course. If you try to maneuver too steeply when below maneuvering speed, it will fall, especially when tailheavy. Thats really all Im talking about here. I think moviong ailerons and rudder together can really kill it. Any bank turns the rudder into elevator of couse. IIf you want to use both you might need the rudder and ailerons moving in opposition. (no shortage of drag there). "Coordinated' at very slow they make that quick 180 death spiral. Kinda a new distinction for me: the difference between stall speed and maneuvering speed. Read about somewhere in a fullscale aviation article. Makes sense. If you fly slow in a staight line with surfaces mostly undeflected you can continue right down to just above stall threshold and hold it there until landing. But if when at that speed and attitude you make a dramatic input, (like a reaction to a gust) the resulting increased drag and lift imbalance can instantly shift the plane across the threshold it was so close to, into a stalled state. As we know it happens seemingly without warning and very quickly. If we were in a fullscale plane the warning would be sqawling of course. It's barely technically possible, nor would it help smaller modeling since things happen so much faster, but its fun to think of having a telemetric stall warning buzzer on your transmitter.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 04:07 AM
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I've still much to learn. But I know this. If I had to land across the wind I was landing into in the video, I wouldn't use flap, and I would come in faster. I would want to FLY it level with ground, touchdown and let it slow down, almost like a reverse takeoff. Not a typical landing. Others might be better/braver, but I've just conservatively developed that instinct. You might find others with a similar opinion that can articulate it better than me. I've noticed wing rock when tuning (at slow speeds) off of wind axis. With these light models there is also danger of tuning downwind of a brisk wind and misjudging airspeed due to increased groundspeed and flying too slow. Then when you turn again, kerplunk. I dont know of a good way to judge that except you will be holding more elevator to maintain alt. And you just have to be aware of hazard. my attitude: Use more throttle when its windy. Some would say also/or fly higher but I just like lower altitudes for models i think its more fun to see them better and when they are closer. If you really understand all the dynamics and maintain awareness of wind direction etc and can keep all of that stuff going in your head you are quicker than me. (Im not all that quick).
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 01:05 PM
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United States, CO
Joined Dec 2012
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I like your videos, thanks. Great job with the gear and the brakes. Probably dont need the brakes much on grass, but still a great job.

I had ordered some flap servos and was going to get my 182 back in action. They didnt include the right size horn for one of the servos though. It was too small and my local hobby store didnt have anything that would fit. They tried to tell me it was a "one-off" size made by FMS and only FMS would have the size. ??? I dont know, if someone knows the right size let me know. The flap servo has a larger diameter then the micro aileron ones.

So I went without flaps this weekend, and also without my durbo wheels that I ordered. I went with the 3'' ones, I know large, but I wanted them for the grass. I went to a new field that is about 300x400 yards, much larger and more open then my closer park. Did about 6 flights perfect there.

On my last crash from a few weeks ago the nose gear arm control broke. Glueing it has been a pain. Recomendations for stronger one?

Went to park after and had some good flights as well. Still learning. I too came into the slow stall speed issue. I also think my cg is off and as well tail heavy. I was preparing for the final landing before battery was done and in a 180 at low altitude plane stalled and nozed to the ground. So another prop busted. The cowl smashed just a bit not bad. I was suprised the firewall didnt brake out this time. Probably from the last 2 repairs, it held. So that saves a few hours of repair

The lesson I learned for sure is to keep speed up in the turns. Just dont have time or altitude to correct.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 01:36 PM
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Yeah brakes aren't needed ever on these I just think its fun.

I think by servo horns you mean what I call the arms. I think of horns as what goes on the control surface and moves it. Anyway my aileron and flap servos are the same. Finding arms with splines that match can be a pain. Idk what you mean by they didnt include the right size horn. They should have included something? Are you saying what they included didnt fit on the servo in the same package?

For CG I would really carefully follow the manual. And then move it forward 2-5 mm. for added stability. I like to take ball-headed staight pins and cut them short and stick them in the bottom of the wing at the recommended point. (with a little glue) And sometimes put some differenct colored ones a few mills fore and aft. When you hold the plane with your finger tip under the pin heads, you can get a good feel of CG.

What you described is what I've been experiencing. CG a little forward helps that. Yeah add a little power into turns they do cause added drag and a drop of altitude. As wing bank they make less lift so we pull elevator and increase AOA so now more drag, higher AOA is closer to stall angle. People talk about 'coordinatied' turns meaning using the rudder with the ailerons. I'm starting to think of that as meaning adding a little power also. No reason to if you are flying at even medium speeds in general of course. But many of us like to fly these as slow as possible seems to enhance the scale effect. Unfortunately scale speed is not 'linear' becuase the air is still the same density. If we could increase the air density as much as our planes are scaled down we could use perfectly scale props, rpm, and flying speed. Need a REALLY big decompressoin chamber lol. But yeah, contrary to instinct, slower is not safer.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 01:46 PM
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United States, FL, Miami
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Went to park after and had some good flights as well. Still learning. I too came into the slow stall speed issue. I also think my cg is off and as well tail heavy. I was preparing for the final landing before battery was done and in a 180 at low altitude plane stalled and nozed to the ground.
Read and follow this (landings by Ben Fisher). It should really help.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 03:02 PM
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helpful reference, thanks. the part about the tail stalling first was what I wasn't sure of. Although.. Im not 100% on why that happens and if it happens on all planes. For example, the Zenith Air STOL planes have an inverted airfoil elevator that affects that. The implications of tail stall I already understood. Really rounds out my knowledge!

It's compicated because when you pull up elevator it also changes the stall angle of the stab/elevator wing. -differently than say a 'flying stab' where the whole thing moves. the flying stab I would think would stall later than stab/elev because you are then decrease the AOA of the whole thing. The flight implications of a flying stab vs stab/elev on conventional light planes would be interesting. Apparently there's a reaons they generally aren't used. Idk what it is though lol.
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