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Old Jan 21, 2011, 11:45 AM
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Giffords Recovery dubbed "Miraculous", part deux

Since the original thread was closed because it wasn't going the way the OP would have liked - here it is again. Funny how that happens.

Am headed out now so can't paste the last quotes here - please feel free to carry on the discussion.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 11:47 AM
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 11:58 AM
All under control, Grommit!
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Thanks Sprydle.

Steelfaith responded to my earlier post with

Quote:
Comment was in regards to the attacker, as he was the one making the action.
Innocent bystanders will be caught up when men and women make the decision to commit evil.
Christ's response to those who are innocent..."He shall wipe away Every tear"
I'm not going to try to second guess Christ when He decides to bring somebody Home, as thats His business alone.
Whether the comment was made towards the attacker or the victim isn't relevant.

If God is omniscient and omnipotent and is being credited with putting in place a miraculous recovery, as in this case, then, by definition, that implies an intervention into a life and death situation. An intervention that believers state is miraculous. Where was the miracle for the little girl who was killed?

Was she less worthy of a miracle than the unfortunate Senator, whose life was actually saved by the prompt hospital treatment? We can be thankful that the Senator survived, but that survival is due to the intervention of the medical staff, and cannot be honestly said to be due to any divine intervention. That is the point being made, about the cherry picking involved in singling out those survivals as being somehow miraculous.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by leccyflyer View Post
Thanks Sprydle.

Steelfaith responded to my earlier post with



Whether the comment was made towards the attacker or the victim isn't relevant.

If God is omniscient and omnipotent and is being credited with putting in place a miraculous recovery, as in this case, then, by definition, that implies an intervention into a life and death situation. An intervention that believers state is miraculous. Where was the miracle for the little girl who was killed?

Was she less worthy of a miracle than the unfortunate Senator, whose life was actually saved by the prompt hospital treatment? We can be thankful that the Senator survived, but that survival is due to the intervention of the medical staff, and cannot be honestly said to be due to any divine intervention. That is the point being made, about the cherry picking involved in singling out those survivals as being somehow miraculous.
The reason you have so many questions is that you are in error by the way you perceive "divine intervention". The intervention could have happened when Joe Schmuckatelly, medical intern, found he had a knack for tying surgical stitches, or...... well, you get my point. God has always been fond of using us lowly humans as tools in his grand scheme. Just look at how many scientific discoveries have happened completely by "accident".
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 01:23 PM
All under control, Grommit!
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Originally Posted by crashdummy6 View Post
The reason you have so many questions is that you are in error by the way you perceive "divine intervention". The intervention could have happened when Joe Schmuckatelly, medical intern, found he had a knack for tying surgical stitches, or...... well, you get my point. God has always been fond of using us lowly humans as tools in his grand scheme. Just look at how many scientific discoveries have happened completely by "accident".
Look how many scientific discoveries have taken decades, or even centuries of hard graft.

Of course, if you're going to argue that the divine intervention, that underpins such "miracles" is implemented by the actions of humans themselves then it begs the question as regards to free will and it raises the spectre of the degree of intervention in the hands of the shooter himself.

God's got form when it comes to bumping people off, even innocent people. Quite a bit of form.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 01:55 PM
Useful Idiot
Asturias, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leccyflyer View Post
...
God's got form when it comes to bumping people off, even innocent people. Quite a bit of form.
It's part of his law as set out in Deuteronomy 20:
Quote:
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you.
18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sprydle View Post
Since the original thread was closed because it wasn't going the way the OP would have liked - here it is again. Funny how that happens.

Am headed out now so can't paste the last quotes here - please feel free to carry on the discussion.
I liked the way no-one could explain why God in all of his mercy and power couldn't save the lives of those shot, but boy, they can sure be counted on for carrying the Lord's water when things go right.

It's a miracle I tell you.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 02:37 PM
Don't look at me like that....
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United States, AR, McDougal
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Originally Posted by Sprydle View Post
Giffords Recovery dubbed "Miraculous", part deux
Did the Pope show up , or what.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 02:55 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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I fail to see a miracle as well.
All I see is a tragedy.

Turning water into wine...now that's a miracle.
Stoping the bullets in mid air....now that's a miracle.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 02:58 PM
Don't look at me like that....
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No miracle, just real lucky.Other at the scene, not so lucky. A miracle would have been if everyone SURVIVED.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 03:02 PM
Fly Runaway Fans
United States, TX, Fort Worth
Joined Jan 2009
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That's Picard and Riker in frame 2, isn't it? I'd know that skull anywhere, got one just like it.

Her recovery is an opportune coincidence, as is surviving any meeting of bullet and brain. I wouldn't ascribe it to divine intervention, but I wouldn't argue with someone wanting to think of it that way.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by arbilab View Post
That's Picard and Riker in frame 2, isn't it? I'd know that skull anywhere, got one just like it.

Her recovery is an opportune coincidence, as is surviving any meeting of bullet and brain. I wouldn't ascribe it to divine intervention, but I wouldn't argue with someone wanting to think of it that way.
I would.

Yes, yes, I know that we snivelling sinful humans cannot know the mind of god, but there are folks out there, many folks who believe that their prayer is what made the difference between life and death for Giffords.

Given that there were certainly as many folks praying for the little girl, who died, *if* we follow the logic that prayer made a difference for Giffords, why then did it not make a difference for this little girl? Wrong people praying, wrong type of prayer, the little girl was just a bad egg, god decided Giffords was worth saving and the little girl was not, what? Why did he listen to the prayers for Giffords and ignore those for the little girl. It's pretty clear that all prayer does is benefit those by making them feel better about themselves, might even lower their blood-pressure, but it is meaningless for the subject of the prayer, especially if they are unconscious. Might help the families of the victims to know that people care, but to believe that prayer changes the "mind" of God is asinine.

Of course we aren't dealing with logic or rationality, we are dealing with faith - so once again, God gets the kudos for the good, and has nothing to do with the bad.

It amazes me that anyone still believes in the God described in the Bible or the Koran, it is so clearly a human creation, with all the spite, jealousy and hate that man is, that it boggles the mind that folks worship it.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 03:36 PM
turn, turn, turn.
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I always say to my kids, if they want to know how a person really is (get them to show their true collors), then tell them "no".

It is hard to hear the word "no".
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Sprydle View Post

It amazes me that anyone still believes in the God described in the Bible or the Koran, it is so clearly a human creation, with all the spite, jealousy and hate that man is, that it boggles the mind that folks worship it.
It boggles my mind that people would try to justify stopping the beating heart of the unborn. So, consider us both boggled.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 03:40 PM
Against it with you
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Houston, TX
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
I always say to my kids, if they want to know how a person really is (get them to show their true collors), then tell them "no".

It is hard to hear the word "no".
Kenny - can you explain what this means in the context of Giffords miraculous recovery and the deaths of the others in the Tuscon shooting? I'm not seeing it.
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