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Old Jan 19, 2011, 03:49 PM
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Kansas City, MO
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Questions on Flybars & 3-Axis Gyros

Does a 3-axis gyro serve any purpose other than to take the place of a flybar?

For someone who's gotten bored with their coaxial (Syma S-107) but is otherwise a beginner and is looking for the next step up in a micro size heli, is there an overall advantage to either the flybar or 3-ax gyro over the other? The ads I've seen for micros with 3-axis gyros make a good argument for the advantages of fewer breakable mechanical parts. That makes good sense, but are there any drawbacks that tend to offset this advantage?

Which overall type would you pick for a beginner?

Which make/model would you recommend and why?

Any particular make/model you don't like?

Thanks!
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Old Jan 19, 2011, 05:03 PM
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Germantown, WI.
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A flybar influences how the heli will respond and effects it's flight characteristics. They have some undesirable side effect, but mostly their impact is positive. It is easy to predict how a flybar heli will fly just by knowing the head design and general specs; you don't actually have to buy one.

The most significant thing about flybarless helis is they respond immediately and very sharply. There's no give, no forgiveness. Overall, that's not a good thing if the heli is not designed to deal with it. It takes a good virtual flybarless system to provide the same touch, feel and response you get with a good flybar design. The biggest advantage of a flybarless heli is considerably reduced parts count.

A simple 3 axis gyro does nothing but stabilize the heli on 3 planes. It does not alter touch, feel or response. It has only minimal logic for when to stabilize, so it is frequently intrusive. There are no flybarless helis, with or without 3 axis gyros, suitable for beginners. They simply respond to abruptly.

I believe a number of people have told you to buy a CB100, MSR, Solo Pro or 4 channel micro coax. That's a good as any advise you are going to get. 3 channel helis do not teach you anything. You are starting from scratch.
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Old Jan 19, 2011, 06:33 PM
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Marysville, Ca., US
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Listen to what Balr14 says. You don't even have coaxial experience, at least not with a hobby-grade heli that uses a swash plate. 3-channel toys use a bastardized trick to try to create forward and reverse flight. The horizontal tail fan provides abrupt changes, and there is no precision. A true 4-channel coax with a swash plate will provide precise control, and, very important, the controls will all be on the correct sticks, instead of rudder being on the right stick. If you really feel you're "too advanced" for a coax, at least try one of the self stabilizing micro single rotors, like the mSR. To try to go from a 3-channel toy to a CP heli with nothing in between is a sure recipe for disaster, and will probably make you quit the hobby altogether.
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Old Jan 20, 2011, 09:39 AM
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I have to attest to that. I just got my esky King 3 and am learning how to hover all over again. I've got quite decent at my 4ch coax being able to fly it outdoors in very very little wind, but this cp is a totally different beast. I'm now on my 2nd pair of blades after realizing the hard way that the smallest crash will wreck the blades, twist the flybar and possibly damage the other head parts. Luckily for me I crashed low and slow. But I waited just a day for the blades, so now I've got the ping-pong trainers on and faithfully following the learn-how-to-fly videos on youtube. Thank goodness for youtube and of course this forum I think I'm back on course.
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Old Jan 20, 2011, 11:21 AM
2011 - Year of the clones!!!
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Australia, SA, Adelaide
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Thank goodness for youtube and of course this forum
I will attest to that. This forum has been great to me, so many friendly and helpful people willing to give a complete stranger on the other side of the world advice and a helping hand.

@ Wingnut One, you seem to be asking the same question over and over again and receiving the same response, which I don't believe you want to hear. Jumping from a 3ch toy to a 6ch CP will end in disaster, either to the heli, your wallet, or worse still, yourself or anyone nearby. It doesn't matter how you phrase your question, not many people will condone a jump from a 3ch to a 6ch. I'm not intending on sounding rude, I just want you to have the best heli experience possible, and firmly believe that this will be possible if you start with a more suitable heli for a beginner.
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Old Jan 20, 2011, 04:32 PM
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Kansas City, MO
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Originally Posted by Balr14 View Post
A flybar influences how the heli will respond and effects it's flight characteristics. They have some undesirable side effect, but mostly their impact is positive. It is easy to predict how a flybar heli will fly just by knowing the head design and general specs; you don't actually have to buy one.

The most significant thing about flybarless helis is they respond immediately and very sharply. There's no give, no forgiveness. Overall, that's not a good thing if the heli is not designed to deal with it. It takes a good virtual flybarless system to provide the same touch, feel and response you get with a good flybar design. The biggest advantage of a flybarless heli is considerably reduced parts count.

A simple 3 axis gyro does nothing but stabilize the heli on 3 planes. It does not alter touch, feel or response. It has only minimal logic for when to stabilize, so it is frequently intrusive. There are no flybarless helis, with or without 3 axis gyros, suitable for beginners. They simply respond to abruptly.

I believe a number of people have told you to buy a CB100, MSR, Solo Pro or 4 channel micro coax. That's a good as any advise you are going to get. 3 channel helis do not teach you anything. You are starting from scratch.

Thank you sir, you were right on the mark with the kind of info I was looking for! I'd already decided to take the advice of going with a 4-ch micro next, but now I know to keep flybarless designs off the list too - no matter how easy the ad claims they are to fly. (Ex: http://www.helipal.com/walkera-hm-v1...z-edition.html)

It seems I may have had excessively high expectations for what a 3-axis gyro could do too. You're probably going to laugh, but I had visions of a 3-axis gyro/receiver being programmed with a 'training mode' that would quickly bring the heli back to a stable hovering attitude if you released the cyclic control stick. (It still seems like a good idea, but it might take more than just a 3-axis gyro to make it work.)

And to all, I apologize if I sounded like I was just rewording old questions; that wasn't my intent.
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Old Jan 20, 2011, 05:15 PM
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Your expectations of a 3 axis gyro are realized. But, not in a $50 Walkera receiver. You want a Skokum 720 virtual flybar system, with GPS support. You also want a heli head that was designed to be flybarless. For example, an ESky HBCT is a flybarless heli with a 3 blade rotor that does not have any special electronic support. But, the head is designed to have some flex and give in the blade mounts. I have one and wouldn't recommend it to anyone but an experienced pilot. But, it does show that design still counts for a lot. There are multiple blade, flybarless upgrade kits available for many popular 450 size and larger helis. Unless you have visions of flying 3D, a 3 or 4 blade head is more stable than a 2 blade head.

You will find that Walkera can do the mechanical design for just about anything in helis. But, they miss a lot of the finer points of what makes a design good. They make some good ones, but you really need to do your homework. But, for now you need something a good deal more tame. There is a considerable difference between flybarless FP and CP helis, too. We can discuss that, but I don't know if you could appreciate the differences now.
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Old Jan 20, 2011, 05:34 PM
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Joined Dec 2010
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Originally Posted by norcalheli View Post
Listen to what Balr14 says. You don't even have coaxial experience, at least not with a hobby-grade heli that uses a swash plate. 3-channel toys use a bastardized trick to try to create forward and reverse flight. The horizontal tail fan provides abrupt changes, and there is no precision. A true 4-channel coax with a swash plate will provide precise control, and, very important, the controls will all be on the correct sticks, instead of rudder being on the right stick. If you really feel you're "too advanced" for a coax, at least try one of the self stabilizing micro single rotors, like the mSR. To try to go from a 3-channel toy to a CP heli with nothing in between is a sure recipe for disaster, and will probably make you quit the hobby altogether.
I agree absolutely!

I also started with an S107, beat the crud out of it, bought a 120SR.

It's a great heli! BUT:

I should have gone from the -107 to a 4-ch co-ax. I'm finally past the "FP-Beginner" stage, but it cost me a lot of money in parts.

A 3-ch heli teaches you bad habits that you need to unlearn...
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Old Jan 20, 2011, 08:22 PM
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A 3-ch heli teaches you bad habits that you need to unlearn...
I tell that to beginners in the coax forum and you'd think I just told them I enjoyed setting kittens on fire. 3 channel fans are a very sentitive lot who don't like their visions of being hotshot heli pilots shattered.
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Old Jan 20, 2011, 10:09 PM
2011 - Year of the clones!!!
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Australia, SA, Adelaide
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That's a little harsh.

I started with a 3ch and I think it was a wise move. It was ultra cheap, fun, and provided me with a way of knowing whether or not I wanted to advance in the hobby. Yes, it was an adjustment getting used to the rudder being on the left stick, but it only took a few minutes to adjust.

The 3ch gave me confidence and taught me about how sensitive the controls on a heli can be. Advancing to a CB100 was definitely a wake up call, but one that I am enjoying (despite a little frustration in the beginning). I don't think I would have been so confident on the CB100 had I not had some previous 3ch experience, despite the fact that the two types of heli are worlds apart.

The 3ch's are definitely fun and do serve a purpose, and some people will have no desire to progress beyond them, which is fine.
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Old Jan 20, 2011, 10:27 PM
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That's me... harsh. I've never been very diplomatic.
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Old Jan 20, 2011, 10:29 PM
2011 - Year of the clones!!!
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Well, just leave those kittens alone and I will still respect you.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 09:49 AM
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The 3ch's are definitely fun and do serve a purpose, and some people will have no desire to progress beyond them, which is fine.
Yup, without my 1st 3-ch I would not have had the confidence to try a 4-ch let alone a 6-ch. 'got me into this hobby and now I see someone fly well (does not have to be 3D) and I think "respect"
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 01:59 PM
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Just drop the 130 bones on a complete RTF mSR. Even less if you have a compatible TX already. Learn to fly the PISS out of it and in ALL orientations. Absolutely nail the nose-in hover and the 45 degree offsets. Learn to do figure eights all ways, left/right turns and forwards/backwards. Only when you can do this in your sleep are you even ready to start thinking about a CP/flybarless helo. Plus, you'll still have an inexpensive, fun, and great flying "pocket" helicopter in your hangar.
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Old Jan 21, 2011, 02:44 PM
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Marysville, Ca., US
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Originally Posted by Balr14 View Post
I tell that to beginners in the coax forum and you'd think I just told them I enjoyed setting kittens on fire. 3 channel fans are a very sentitive lot who don't like their visions of being hotshot heli pilots shattered.
I always laugh to myself when I read that someone has "mastered" their 3-channel coax and is ready to move up to a full 3-D capable, 6-channel, 3000RPM T-Rex or Clone. If it wasn't cruel my answer would always be "Go ahead, have fun,be sure to post the video!!"

(I started on a HB CP2, my first flight lasted 3 seconds, and then I had the first of many lessons in parts ordering, waiting for delivery, repair, fly, crash, rinse, repeat ad nauseum. God I would have loved one of these self-stabilizing FP's back then.)
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