Adding ailerons to GWS Tiger Moth

Bleriot · Oct 10, 2001, 09:50 PM

Hi all. Been awhile since I posted, just wondering if anyone has done this, is planning to, or thinks it's stupid. Which wing would be best suited to this proposed modification? Thanks Best Regards

Red Baron 47 · Oct 10, 2001, 10:21 PM

Hi Bleriot,

Good to see you. You might do a search. I remember reading in the past that people tried and didn't have good luck. However ya never know how the others did it.

If you leave the struts stock there's not much room for aileron width. I was thinking about making my own struts and having them taper to about 1/2 inch more inboard than they are now. Either that or have the aileron stick out from the TE a bit. Could also have aerodynamic balancers like the Fokker which would also give them more "oomph." Of course take out the dihedral. Wouldn't look as "scale" as before.

I decided to keep mine stock and got an FC Cub. I'm going to put ailerons on that. The wings have about an inch of flat width on the TE. Perfect for ailerons.

RB

DaveW · Oct 10, 2001, 10:58 PM

Hi,
Ailerons normally go on the lower wing, if not on both. With a full length strip aileron, it doesn't take too much width, just 1/2" will work.

BUT, IMHO, as a long time scratch builder who is currently asslembling a TM ( so cute I couldn't resist) I am not going to put ailerons on it.

For this type of aircraft, just not worth the trouble and weight. A TM is not going to be very acrobatic no matter what, and the weight gain is unattractive.

If you really have to try it, take out almost all of the dihedral, otherwise total waste of time.

And then, be prepared to fly it every second just keeping the wings level. ( typical no dihedral performance).

Will they work? Yes. Will it be worth the effort? Your call.

If you really want a fast roll, put them in both the upper and lower wings and link them externally at the trailing edges. Servo drives the lower ones.

Have fun! thats what this is all about!

Dave

Ben Lanterman · Oct 10, 2001, 11:52 PM

Through a building error my Tiger Moth has almost zero dihedral just setting on the wheels, no aero load. Some dihedral gets in there when the wings are loaded but not much. It is mostly still flat. However there is enough rolling moment due to the sidesllip caused by the rudder (because it is a biplane) that it handles very groovy anyway. Just a nice feel.

If you put ailerons in, couple the ailerons to the rudder either with a separate servo or a simple mechanical linkage. It will stop any adverse yaw from the ailerons and it keeps the airplane controllable when at real slow speeds and all the ailerons do is create drag.

I am using coupled ailerons/rudder on my low wing F-4 model and the effect is nice.

RMason · Oct 11, 2001, 08:02 AM

Welcome back Bleriot-

Judging from my experience with aileroned Litestick and Canard Stick, the ailerons will be marginal at best. The slow speed at which the Moth flies makes the ailerons pretty useless. The rudder is much more effective.

The Canard stick was origionally elev-ail but the designer went back to elev-rud for control authority. At slow speeds aka. landing, the ailerons didn't do much other than cause drag.

However, on my next Moth I am going to modify it into a Stampe SV4c (rounded wings, different tail) and add 4 ailerons. Mabye that will help.

I donno, give it a try. But definately add flying wires for ridgidity and raise the sides of the cockpit for looks.

Rob

here's some pics http://community.webshots.com/user/robertmason

Bleriot · Oct 11, 2001, 12:42 PM

Hi Thanks for the input and the welcome back, I'm 99% sure that this venture into a F...F...FO...FOAM slowflyer will happen though! I have some cf rod and tube and some F... friendly CA and epoxy, rigging wires are to be Spiderwire, I've read thru some of the threads and will use all the good info I can. Sounds like a majority of fliers are enjoying this airframe. Have the apc adapter and 9-7 prop, heat sink etc. Planning on 3 Tadrians and 6 AAA NiMH, gots a few SPARE motors too!

Yello tape on the L.E.? How much does the wing flex? Best Regards

RMason · Oct 11, 2001, 04:24 PM

Bleriot-

You don't need to add anything to the basic airframe except the flying wires, and mabye to strengthen the landing gear(tho I haven't had any probs)

The flying wires lock the wing down and the only mod for wing flex is to strengthen the front wing strut. I found this out the hard way. Tight turns gave random aileron input due to the lower wing twisting and bending the strut. Solved this by adding a strip of scrap strut material to the front. With this set up there is NO flex in the wing under + or - G's.

The APC prop works great and won't break like the GWS one. I haven't smoked the motor (yet) and I use 8 cell 280 NiMH packs and get 15-23 min flights at reduced throttle and 10-12 full bore. Using heat sink and motor cooling hasn't been a problem. Though I'm sure the Bleriot curse of fried motors may happen someday.

Another note: use baking soda with the CA to fill gaps when setting wing dihedral and attaching struts,works great.

Rob

PS- weekend carnage report anyone?

DaveG · Oct 11, 2001, 09:09 PM

Hi, Bleriot. You're going to love flying the little Moth. It's my first slow flyer and I can't wait to fly it when the wind is calm. I'm flying with a 6 cell 280 mah pack. Just a very nice, relaxing flyer, with no bad characteristics. My favorite is practising touch and goes.

I found using polyurethane glue for the wing struts and in the upper wing gap to hold the dihedral worked great. I didn't like the look of the wrinkled mess I got with the tape in the kit. Very tough, light joints. Also used the poly glue to mount the plastic wing saddle to the lower wing. The lower wing kept sagging with the kit-supplied double sided tape.

I've had good luck with the standard GWS prop but finally busted one when I had a hard nose over on some grass. I just popped on one of several spare props I've got. I've had better luck flying off of asphalt surfaces than I have off of grass.

Enjoy!

Dave G

Bleriot · Oct 11, 2001, 09:33 PM

Hi Yes as soon as my last check arrives, it's off to the LHS for my very own Tiger Moth! I'm looking forward to this and have sure had a LOT of posts to wade thru looking for info. Ah, the whine of the ips drive!I had the idea that by cutting down a GWS 10-8 (thick blade roots) to 9 or 8 1/2" using a compass and then re-balance, that the 9-7 prop breakage problem could be eliminated w/o going to the APC which is heavier. Might be a solution for some. Out comes the Sharpie of course. Will be rummaging around the toy dept for some wheels, I might go to the LHS and just caress the box a little

What's the total wing area? Did anyone try the s-1 or s-2 ips drives yet, they must be a bit quieter and use the 8-9" props? Best Regards

Oct 10, 2001, 09:50 PM	#1
Bleriot Registered User Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 2,837	Adding ailerons to GWS Tiger Moth Hi all. Been awhile since I posted, just wondering if anyone has done this, is planning to, or thinks it's stupid. Which wing would be best suited to this proposed modification? Thanks Best Regards

Oct 10, 2001, 10:21 PM	#2
Red Baron 47 Most Exalted Windbag Join Date: May 2001 Location: Newark, DE USA Posts: 1,632	Re: Adding ailerons to GWS Tiger Moth Hi Bleriot, Good to see you. You might do a search. I remember reading in the past that people tried and didn't have good luck. However ya never know how the others did it. If you leave the struts stock there's not much room for aileron width. I was thinking about making my own struts and having them taper to about 1/2 inch more inboard than they are now. Either that or have the aileron stick out from the TE a bit. Could also have aerodynamic balancers like the Fokker which would also give them more "oomph." Of course take out the dihedral. Wouldn't look as "scale" as before. I decided to keep mine stock and got an FC Cub. I'm going to put ailerons on that. The wings have about an inch of flat width on the TE. Perfect for ailerons. RB

Oct 10, 2001, 11:52 PM	#4
Ben Lanterman Registered User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: St. Charles, MO USA Posts: 539	Dihedral Through a building error my Tiger Moth has almost zero dihedral just setting on the wheels, no aero load. Some dihedral gets in there when the wings are loaded but not much. It is mostly still flat. However there is enough rolling moment due to the sidesllip caused by the rudder (because it is a biplane) that it handles very groovy anyway. Just a nice feel. If you put ailerons in, couple the ailerons to the rudder either with a separate servo or a simple mechanical linkage. It will stop any adverse yaw from the ailerons and it keeps the airplane controllable when at real slow speeds and all the ailerons do is create drag. I am using coupled ailerons/rudder on my low wing F-4 model and the effect is nice.

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Oct 10, 2001, 10:58 PM	#3
DaveW Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Folsom,Ca,USA Posts: 993	Hi, Ailerons normally go on the lower wing, if not on both. With a full length strip aileron, it doesn't take too much width, just 1/2" will work. BUT, IMHO, as a long time scratch builder who is currently asslembling a TM ( so cute I couldn't resist) I am not going to put ailerons on it. For this type of aircraft, just not worth the trouble and weight. A TM is not going to be very acrobatic no matter what, and the weight gain is unattractive. If you really have to try it, take out almost all of the dihedral, otherwise total waste of time. And then, be prepared to fly it every second just keeping the wings level. ( typical no dihedral performance). Will they work? Yes. Will it be worth the effort? Your call. If you really want a fast roll, put them in both the upper and lower wings and link them externally at the trailing edges. Servo drives the lower ones. Have fun! thats what this is all about! Dave

Oct 11, 2001, 08:02 AM	#5
RMason A Few Sandwiches Shy Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,957	Welcome back Bleriot- Judging from my experience with aileroned Litestick and Canard Stick, the ailerons will be marginal at best. The slow speed at which the Moth flies makes the ailerons pretty useless. The rudder is much more effective. The Canard stick was origionally elev-ail but the designer went back to elev-rud for control authority. At slow speeds aka. landing, the ailerons didn't do much other than cause drag. However, on my next Moth I am going to modify it into a Stampe SV4c (rounded wings, different tail) and add 4 ailerons. Mabye that will help. I donno, give it a try. But definately add flying wires for ridgidity and raise the sides of the cockpit for looks. Rob here's some pics http://community.webshots.com/user/robertmason

Oct 11, 2001, 12:42 PM	#6
Bleriot Registered User Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 2,837	Hi Thanks for the input and the welcome back, I'm 99% sure that this venture into a F...F...FO...FOAM slowflyer will happen though! I have some cf rod and tube and some F... friendly CA and epoxy, rigging wires are to be Spiderwire, I've read thru some of the threads and will use all the good info I can. Sounds like a majority of fliers are enjoying this airframe. Have the apc adapter and 9-7 prop, heat sink etc. Planning on 3 Tadrians and 6 AAA NiMH, gots a few SPARE motors too! Yello tape on the L.E.? How much does the wing flex? Best Regards

Oct 11, 2001, 04:24 PM	#7
RMason A Few Sandwiches Shy Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,957	Bleriot- You don't need to add anything to the basic airframe except the flying wires, and mabye to strengthen the landing gear(tho I haven't had any probs) The flying wires lock the wing down and the only mod for wing flex is to strengthen the front wing strut. I found this out the hard way. Tight turns gave random aileron input due to the lower wing twisting and bending the strut. Solved this by adding a strip of scrap strut material to the front. With this set up there is NO flex in the wing under + or - G's. The APC prop works great and won't break like the GWS one. I haven't smoked the motor (yet) and I use 8 cell 280 NiMH packs and get 15-23 min flights at reduced throttle and 10-12 full bore. Using heat sink and motor cooling hasn't been a problem. Though I'm sure the Bleriot curse of fried motors may happen someday. Another note: use baking soda with the CA to fill gaps when setting wing dihedral and attaching struts,works great. Rob PS- weekend carnage report anyone?

Oct 11, 2001, 09:09 PM	#8
DaveG Lone Night Ranger Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Houston, TX, US Posts: 1,145	Hi, Bleriot. You're going to love flying the little Moth. It's my first slow flyer and I can't wait to fly it when the wind is calm. I'm flying with a 6 cell 280 mah pack. Just a very nice, relaxing flyer, with no bad characteristics. My favorite is practising touch and goes. I found using polyurethane glue for the wing struts and in the upper wing gap to hold the dihedral worked great. I didn't like the look of the wrinkled mess I got with the tape in the kit. Very tough, light joints. Also used the poly glue to mount the plastic wing saddle to the lower wing. The lower wing kept sagging with the kit-supplied double sided tape. I've had good luck with the standard GWS prop but finally busted one when I had a hard nose over on some grass. I just popped on one of several spare props I've got. I've had better luck flying off of asphalt surfaces than I have off of grass. Enjoy! Dave G

Oct 11, 2001, 09:33 PM	#9
Bleriot Registered User Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 2,837	Hi Yes as soon as my last check arrives, it's off to the LHS for my very own Tiger Moth! I'm looking forward to this and have sure had a LOT of posts to wade thru looking for info. Ah, the whine of the ips drive!I had the idea that by cutting down a GWS 10-8 (thick blade roots) to 9 or 8 1/2" using a compass and then re-balance, that the 9-7 prop breakage problem could be eliminated w/o going to the APC which is heavier. Might be a solution for some. Out comes the Sharpie of course. Will be rummaging around the toy dept for some wheels, I might go to the LHS and just caress the box a little What's the total wing area? Did anyone try the s-1 or s-2 ips drives yet, they must be a bit quieter and use the 8-9" props? Best Regards