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Old Feb 02, 2011, 04:59 PM
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Here's the Heli video.

Skymasters HD Keyfob 11 Heli Tadpole and PZ T-28 v2.wmv (7 min 3 sec)


Joe
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Old Feb 02, 2011, 05:42 PM
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Bill, thanks for the help, found what I was doing wrong when trying to download, was pushing both buttons together, and I was setting it up as a web cam, (Bloody dill) all seems well at present, Regards Goofa.
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Old Feb 02, 2011, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by goofa View Post
Bill, thanks for the help, found what I was doing wrong when trying to download, was pushing both buttons together, and I was setting it up as a web cam, (Bloody dill) all seems well at present, Regards Goofa.
Goofa,

Good for you.

Bill
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Old Feb 02, 2011, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Joespeeder View Post
Here's the Heli video.
...
Joe
That's a beautiful indoor flying venue... wish something like that was available here! Is it always that crowded? I was getting to the point where I was hoping you could make a left hand turn with the plane for a change!
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Old Feb 02, 2011, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by carl1864 View Post
About refocusing....

So I finally got around to taking the time to try and refocus my HD keychain cam. I brought the laptop outside, put the camera in webcam mode, and used virtualdub to view it and tinker with it while pointing it at trees of various distances. I accurately marked the original focus, and then tinkered with the focus for probably at least a half hour, and the absolute best focus point that I was able to see, even for the far away trees, seemed to actually be exactly the stock focus. I arrived exactly on that spot on my own over and over again, so perhaps some are perfectly focussed.

There were times in flight before I had refocussed, where I felt like the video wasn't as crisp as it should be, but perhaps that was just due to vibration, movement, or lower than ideal light causing the shutter speed to slow. At least now I'm not left wondering "I wonder if this video would have been crisper if I would have refocussed first".
I know what you mean. I was never convince the web cam method was zeroed in, because of motion while focusing, and the brighter light making it harder to see detail in the web display. It does get you very close, but I found I could make sure I had mine really zeroed in for distant AV work by shooting a test video at the "webcam" spot, then shooting identical subject matter (very distant) by turning the lens about 1 to 2 deg left and right of the "webcam" spot, then using two separate video players to display each pair of videos together. By stepping through frame by frame, I could tell if one was better than the other. I was also comparing corners and edges as well as closer objects in these tests to get the best OVERALL focus, but you could also use this method just for central objects in the frame as well.
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Old Feb 02, 2011, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bricked View Post
No, reset doesn't work.

The battery circuit seems to be the only working thing, the red light turns on when usb plugged, and it turns off when charged. But that's all... it can't be switched on, the computer can't see the usb device, neither the power button nor the reset work. Probably it was just bad luck, other people seems to report no problems with the firmware.
Try to load the "Date On" bin-file back on cam. Had the same problem and it worked for me, and it worked for another person in this thread. See post #462 for reference.
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Old Feb 02, 2011, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
If the USB plug is terminated like the car charger, allowing it to both power the camera and charge the internal battery, that should give not quite three times the normal recording time (120 minutes) if you start with a fully charged internal battery. All hypothetical, of course.
The USB plug on my emergency charger is terminated like the car charger, i.e. the pin4-modification. No glue is used to isolate Pin 4 and 5 in the back part of the Mini USB , instead some kind of "sticky paper" (?!) in between those pins. Pin 2 and 3 are missing in the back part, though they are present at the front part. They were probably cut off or they broke. Pin 1 is present but not connected.

See attached pic (bad photo i know, shot with a #3).
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Old Feb 02, 2011, 08:27 PM
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Thanks Tom,

That was a normal to light crowd. I've seen twice that amount there. I like to call the main sport flying area the foam blender..... Crunch!!!! Heli's in one goal zone, blender in the main field, 3d and micros in the other goal zone.

The thing I always forget when shooting video with these cams is how quickly you accumulate LOTS of footage and how long it takes to look at it to edit it down. Add in the 1/2 speed filter and you learn to be brutal in editing.

I did learn how to produce an HD video from WMM.

I'll be interested to see the AVI HD Keyfob cam Chuck calls #12.

Now that I have some video to work with I'll keep experimenting with my ultimate noob set up.

Joe
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Last edited by Joespeeder; Feb 02, 2011 at 09:33 PM.
Old Feb 02, 2011, 10:42 PM
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Hey Tom,

Have you tried both Any Video Converter and Freemake for converting MOV to AVI?

I just tried AVC and it looks better to my eye. It takes longer to convert than FM but I swear it's better. I don't know how to do an A/B test in the same window with two AVI files.

Here's the Youtube upload of a test with each converter. I didn't use any brightness or speed editors for this test file. Just the raw video converted in each converter.

What do you think? Select the Youtube link to view this in HD.

AVC vs FM Test.wmv (1 min 24 sec)



Joe
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Old Feb 02, 2011, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Joespeeder View Post
Thanks Tom,

That was a normal to light crowd. I've seen twice that amount there. I like to call the main sport flying area the foam blender..... Crunch!!!! Heli's in one goal zone, blender in the main field, 3d and micros in the other goal zone.

The thing I always forget when shooting video with these cams is how quickly you accumulate LOTS of footage and how long it takes to look at it to edit it down. Add in the 1/2 speed filter and you learn to be brutal in editing.

I did learn how to produce an HD video from WMM.

I'll be interested to see the AVI HD Keyfob cam Chuck calls #12.

Now that I have some video to work with I'll keep experimenting with my ultimate noob set up.

Joe
I start to feel "cramped" with just two other planes flying the same time as me, and that's OUTDOORS!

There's more info on that "#12" in the chucklohr.com site. It's definitely not for me, and the only thing it offers that's an advancement is the (reportedly) video out plug... just what FPV fliers have wanted. It can drop down to 720x480 and 640x480, but still at only 30 fps, instead of an anticipated 60 fps. But with 30% dropped frames, the video is VERY jerky, and with MJPEG compression codec, the files will be close to twice as large as the ones from the HD key cam for the same recorded time, so flash memory will need to be about twice the capacity to hold the same amount of video. And the video has the same lens vignetting issues... all for an approximate price of $60 delivered!
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Feb 02, 2011 at 11:14 PM.
Old Feb 02, 2011, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Joespeeder View Post
Hey Tom,

Have you tried both Any Video Converter and Freemake for converting MOV to AVI?

I just tried AVC and it looks better to my eye. It takes longer to convert than FM but I swear it's better. I don't know how to do an A/B test in the same window with two AVI files.

Here's the Youtube upload of a test with each converter. I didn't use any brightness or speed editors for this test file. Just the raw video converted in each converter.

What do you think? Select the Youtube link to view this in HD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddhQOzIVRlw


Joe
Hi Joe,
Yes, I've tried them both. It all depends on the settings you use for the conversion. Freemake will greatly degrade your video if you use the default preset settings. Maybe you missed this earlier post of mine where I pointed this out and gave the fix? Once you get them both using the same settings, they do pretty much an equal job. Freemake can invert videos, where AVC cannot, but if you want a .WAV file of the audio for use in Doppler Speed programs, AVC can do that but Freemake cannot. I like the file trimming editor in Freemake better than AVC, which wouldn't merge clips for me as it's supposed to. Freemake merges, but you can't save or re-arrange sections like AVC could if it worked as described.

Quite honestly, my favorite, AviDemux, can just as easily (for me) and capably do the conversion (all require re-encoding), but it has the power these two do not to correct the flaws and enhance the video at the same time.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Feb 02, 2011 at 11:49 PM.
Old Feb 02, 2011, 11:58 PM
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Joe, Tom et al,
I was curious what you guys thought of "Pazera Free MOV to AVI converter 1.2"

It's a batch converter, mov to avi or mpg. It has many output options with additional control of Bitrate and FPS (or auto), 2 pass encoding or not and ability to convert only audio, only video or both. Audio section has selections for bit rate, sample frequency, mono or stereo. Advance settings for resolution and cropping.

What do you guys think of this free program?
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 12:02 AM
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I've seen references in this thread for WMM to output in HD. I have WinXP Pro with WMM version 2.1.4........ I don't seem to have a HD output. Do any of you know which ouput setting I would use that would be comperable to HD output?
Robbie
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by zrobbie View Post
I've seen references in this thread for WMM to output in HD. I have WinXP Pro with WMM version 2.1.4........ I don't seem to have a HD output. Do any of you know which ouput setting I would use that would be comperable to HD output?
Robbie
You're two versions of the OS out of date, so you don't have an HD setting. The best you can do is select the "best for showing on PC" setting, or whatever it was called.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Feb 03, 2011 at 01:05 AM.
Old Feb 03, 2011, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by zrobbie View Post
Joe, Tom et al,
I was curious what you guys thought of "Pazera Free MOV to AVI converter 1.2"

It's a batch converter, mov to avi or mpg. It has many output options with additional control of Bitrate and FPS (or auto), 2 pass encoding or not and ability to convert only audio, only video or both. Audio section has selections for bit rate, sample frequency, mono or stereo. Advance settings for resolution and cropping.

What do you guys think of this free program?
It does an adequate job of converting if I "force" the output bit rate to 7000 kbps to match my original source video. It does not give you an option that high in the drop down box, but you can pick one and type in 7000 to replace it.

But, it has no editing ability, so that limits it in comparison to some of the others we've looked at here.

And when I tell it to convert using the original source video stream (i.e. no re-encoding, it too, like all the other conversion programs, will not produce an .AVI file that can be displayed/edited. So I think this one also uses the same core library modules and just adds it's own user interface. It does have a lot of option settings, which some find too busy or confusing. I found it easy to configure and use, though.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by deepinside View Post
Try to load the "Date On" bin-file back on cam. Had the same problem and it worked for me, and it worked for another person in this thread. See post #462 for reference.
Actually usb or card reader or adapter all work for date/time...Ive tried them all on 3 different cams and all work exactly the same...Revised time/date
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 07:35 AM
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Hey Tom,

Morning..... lol. We need a hobby....

Yup I used your post and those setting for Freemake. When I ran the clip through both converters AVC took much longer to convert.

I do like the simple editor functions in Freemake so I guess I'll use that for when I mount the Keyfob upside down. I would love to use Avidemux but I get those blocks in my vids no mater how I set it.

There must be a magic combo I'm missing. My Laptop is a Dual Core Intel Core 2 Duo P8400 / 2.26 GHz, 4.0 GB RAM, and a # NVIDIA GeForce 9800M GTS with 1.0 GB GDDR3 SDRAM machine. I thought it was up to the task but tech moves on. Funny how a $50 HD Cam set up has me considering moving to Apple when I upgrade.

I'm not really a computer guy I just look at the specs when they get in my way. I'm my bumping around with these converters I did see my raw files right from the #11 cam had a bit rate of about 6500 so that's what I set Freemake and AVC to when converting. I see your cams are producing video at 7000bps and other reported higher rates.

What controls the bit rate the cam is shoots at? I'm using the cards you linked. Is there variation from card to card?


BTW, that crowded feeling when flying is the reason I love flying in the blender. In the summer we fly H9 sized warbirds in packs of 5-8 That made me really nervous, until I spent a season in the blender. It taught me to track others in my periphery and forced me to feel comfortable with lots of planes in the air. With the big guys we work on not crossing silhouettes and it works well. The ultimate goal for me with the cam is to get it into the middle of some of these packs or track them from in front or behind in the air. I have mounts for my H&M FW-190 am creating them for my VQ-Hurricane plus I grabbed 3 Eyepod kits from Richard.

I think I need to work on getting air to air shots to see how things look. In my videos so far the closest shot are my hand held shots of the Heli. In my air shots I find myself looking at the building and people on the ground. But I should d be looking at the quality of other aircradt in the video. I'm slow but I'm learning...

By the time flying season gets here I should be a warbird video machine

I hope.

Thanks for your guidance here. It really helps me with my steep learning curve when it comes to this stuff.

Joe
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Last edited by Joespeeder; Feb 03, 2011 at 07:40 AM.
Old Feb 03, 2011, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Joespeeder View Post
I'm my bumping around with these converters I did see my raw files right from the #11 cam had a bit rate of about 6500 so that's what I set Freemake and AVC to when converting. I see your cams are producing video at 7000bps and other reported higher rates.

What controls the bit rate the cam is shoots at? I'm using the cards you linked. Is there variation from card to card?
Joe
My #11 camera has 6500-7000 kbps by defaut with 8 Gb SDHC A-data class 6. Than I did the firmware update with the non date stamp one, and the camera was able to record all videos @ 10.2 Mbps (~10200 kbps). So if you want higher bitrate you have to update the firmware and remove the stamp using this Instructions for turning the timestamp on and off and the driver.
Good luck!
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 08:25 AM
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Keep it simple & short

Thanks ptg for your Tic Tac box idea. That's exactly what I needed to help keep the mud out of my keycam.

Here's another short (:60) video test of HD keycam. I have applied video process to hold down the sea sickness effect. I hope to get the gyros on my SkySurfer dialed in soon so I can send unprocessed raw video to show the true video quality of this little gem. It's no GoPro, but for $39

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Old Feb 03, 2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Joespeeder View Post
Hey Tom,
...
There must be a magic combo I'm missing. My Laptop is a Dual Core Intel Core 2 Duo P8400 / 2.26 GHz, 4.0 GB RAM, and a # NVIDIA GeForce 9800M GTS with 1.0 GB GDDR3 SDRAM machine. I thought it was up to the task but tech moves on. Funny how a $50 HD Cam set up has me considering moving to Apple when I upgrade.

I'm not really a computer guy I just look at the specs when they get in my way. I'm my bumping around with these converters I did see my raw files right from the #11 cam had a bit rate of about 6500 so that's what I set Freemake and AVC to when converting. I see your cams are producing video at 7000bps and other reported higher rates.

What controls the bit rate the cam is shoots at? I'm using the cards you linked. Is there variation from card to card?

BTW, that crowded feeling when flying is the reason I love flying in the blender. In the summer we fly H9 sized warbirds in packs of 5-8 That made me really nervous, until I spent a season in the blender. It taught me to track others in my periphery and forced me to feel comfortable with lots of planes in the air. With the big guys we work on not crossing silhouettes and it works well. The ultimate goal for me with the cam is to get it into the middle of some of these packs or track them from in front or behind in the air.
...
Joe
hmmm... your laptop sounds like it should have no problem. Does AviDemux produce that same blocky video with the indoor clip you just posted? I don't have any desire to switch to Apple... not nearly as much open source free ware and other software, and they have their own problems as well.

The 7000 kbps bit rate I mention is the approximate total bit rate, including audio. My actual video bit rate is similar to yours... I just set my video bit rate a little high to make sure I don't degrade the original any more than necessary. The camera video processor controls the bit rate, but the card can affect the recorded video if it can't write the data fast enough (usually producing dropped or duplicate frames).

I'll watch for some of that in flight video you plan to do. It's very hard to capture video of other planes in the air, I found.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 11:33 AM
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H-264 is a very efficient codec, designed to have at least 2-3 times smaller files than MPEG2 at equal quality. So higher bit rate settings are needed to get the same quality video with a less efficient codec, expect big files!
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ShinG0 View Post
My #11 camera has 6500-7000 kbps by defaut with 8 Gb SDHC A-data class 6. Than I did the firmware update with the non date stamp one, and the camera was able to record all videos @ 10.2 Mbps (~10200 kbps). So if you want higher bitrate you have to update the firmware and remove the stamp using this Instructions for turning the timestamp on and off and the driver.
Good luck!
This does not work like this with all cameras for some reason. The firmware updates you linked for date on/off are exactly the same as the ones posted at the beginning of this thread (I've run a compare utility in my hex editor to check them byte by byte... they are identical). I have used the firmware date off swap on my camera, and the video bit rate is still the same as it was before, 7000 kbps nominal total bit rate. I use Transcend 4GB Class 6 flash cards, which test in the top 1-2 results compared with the tests shown in chucklohr.com. I have no idea why some cameras have a higher bit rate.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by victapilot View Post
H-264 is a very efficient codec, designed to have at least 2-3 times smaller files than MPEG2 at equal quality. So higher bit rate settings are needed to get the same quality video with a less efficient codec, expect big files!
Yep... the video processor in our HD Key Cam has an integral H.264 video encoder pipeline in it, so it controls the camera output bit rate.

That new HD camera dubbed #12 by chuck Lohr encodes with MJPEG video codec, and has a bit rate (and presumably files sizes) about double that of our HD Key Cam. That's probably what is causing the high dropped frame rate as well if the processor used in that camera cannot keep up with the encoding task @ 30 fps (just like the old 808!)
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 12:50 PM
define("BEASTMODE", "1");
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Wait, there's a #12 now?! What did I miss?

Edit - Found it on Chuck's page... The ONLY thing I like is composite output, and that's IF it puts out video while it records. If that's the case, it would make an awesome camera for small FPV planes. Now, if they would keep the h.264 compression in the #11 and give is a live composite out, I'd be first in line with cash in hand.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 12:53 PM
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Hey Guys,

I'm processing more Avidemux files.... As the file processes I see the bitrate hits 8200 at times.

Should I set the bit rate slightly above that or is it working off an average.

Joe
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithLuneau View Post
Wait, there's a #12 now?! What did I miss?

Edit - Found it on Chuck's page... The ONLY thing I like is composite output, and that's IF it puts out video while it records. If that's the case, it would make an awesome camera for small FPV planes. Now, if they would keep the h.264 compression in the #11 and give is a live composite out, I'd be first in line with cash in hand.
+1
Mike
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 02:20 PM
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Avidemux in Vista

Success !!!

I got Avidmux to work in Vista !!!! Yeaaaa

I don't know why (cause I really have no idea what I'm doing) I set the video setting to MPEG-4 ASP (Xvid), In Configure, I set it to Constant Bit Rate 8200, Predefined Aspect Ratio NTSC 16:9. In Filters I selected HQ3D.

I set the Audio to MP3 Lame Mono.

Then Format set to AVI

Those settings provided the cleanest video yet without any of the blocks I had been getting.

Ta Daaaa

I dumped all this into a WMM file and will post that for you to see on Youtube. Next I may need to try Viemo......

Joe
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
It does an adequate job of converting if I "force" the output bit rate to 7000 kbps to match my original source video. It does not give you an option that high in the drop down box, but you can pick one and type in 7000 to replace it.

But, it has no editing ability, so that limits it in comparison to some of the others we've looked at here.

And when I tell it to convert using the original source video stream (i.e. no re-encoding, it too, like all the other conversion programs, will not produce an .AVI file that can be displayed/edited. So I think this one also uses the same core library modules and just adds it's own user interface. It does have a lot of option settings, which some find too busy or confusing. I found it easy to configure and use, though.
I think Pazera Mov to Avi converter is more for the person who has difficulty with vdub or avidmux and they just want to use WMM to create their videos. They (I) can simply input a bunch of mov's all at once, set the bit rate and output to wmv, click convert and all the mov's are converted at once and ready to edit in WMM. Pazera is easy to configure and save so the next time you simply drag and drop all your mov's, press convert and it's all done very quickly.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 03:40 PM
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Hey Guys,

Here's my final File Converter video. Now that I got Avidemux working there's I will use that from here on out.

This shows what is possible using these converters, editing in WMM, and posting to Youtube for the noob user like me.


Keyfob Converter AVI Tests including Avidemux.wmv (6 min 27 sec)



I'll play with Avidemux some more but I promise not to make you look at our good friend Barney in that same shot again...

Onward and upward.

Joe
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 03:43 PM
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zrobbie-

On vista its even easier for me to do this...all you need is k-lite codec pack for it to work...
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithLuneau View Post
Wait, there's a #12 now?! What did I miss?

Edit - Found it on Chuck's page... The ONLY thing I like is composite output, and that's IF it puts out video while it records. If that's the case, it would make an awesome camera for small FPV planes. Now, if they would keep the h.264 compression in the #11 and give is a live composite out, I'd be first in line with cash in hand.
I believe the video processor in our HD Key Cam has the ability to output composite video, as well as 640x480 at 60 fps, plus other capabilities based on what I read on the Novatek web site. Shouldn't cost $60 for those minimal changes, though.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Joespeeder View Post
Hey Guys,

I'm processing more Avidemux files.... As the file processes I see the bitrate hits 8200 at times.

Should I set the bit rate slightly above that or is it working off an average.

Joe
If you are using mpeg-4 ASP (xvid) as the video compressor, the best quality with minimum file size should be had by configuring it for average bit rate (two pass), then set the bit rate to be the same or slightly higher than what your camera's average video bit rate is... 7000 is high enough for my camera. Setting it higher does more to increase the file size than it does improving the quality. My camera will jump up to 12000 or 13000 kbps on some complex video scenes for a second or two, but it settles down to typically less than 7000 kbps average on the video data. So setting the average bit rate for 7000 is a good spot. You know you can then save those settings as a custom configuration with any name of your choice, then just select that choice each time and you're good to go.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joespeeder View Post
Success !!!

I got Avidmux to work in Vista !!!! Yeaaaa

I don't know why (cause I really have no idea what I'm doing) I set the video setting to MPEG-4 ASP (Xvid), In Configure, I set it to Constant Bit Rate 8200, Predefined Aspect Ratio NTSC 16:9. In Filters I selected HQ3D.

I set the Audio to MP3 Lame Mono.

Then Format set to AVI

Those settings provided the cleanest video yet without any of the blocks I had been getting.

Ta Daaaa

I dumped all this into a WMM file and will post that for you to see on Youtube. Next I may need to try Viemo......

Joe
Try adding the "asharp" filter after the de-noise filter and see what you think. You can click the "threshold" setting in it to decrease or increase the effect. The default seems to be just right on my outdoor videos, but indoor shots may be different. It can really make fine detail look a lot "crisper"! But indoor shots will have slower shutter settings, more blurring of motion, and more noise, so not sure of the results.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
I can't test mine because I sent it back due to mal-focusing issues, and don't expect to have a replacement for at least 3 weeks due to the Chinese new years holiday. I THOUGHT I started my test with an essentially dead battery, with just enough juice to start a video, then plugged it in and it continued recording for a lot longer time than it otherwise would have. So it was not running on battery power all that time.

Now I don't recall if I let it run past the 20 min. auto stop/save/restart point, so hopefully someone else will confirm your results and report back here. I guess it's possible the camera will not restart automatically after the auto stop kicks in with the generic charger plugged in, just as it won't start the first time with it plugged in. If that's the case, I need to edit my post, but will wait to see if someone else can confirm you findings.
I emptied the internal battery by letting it run (normal 2*20 minutes were recorded), then formatted the flash card (8GB Kingston). I then charged the cam for about 3 minutes via an unmodified USB, just enough to be able to start a new recording. Removed the the USB cable.
Then I started a new recording in the 10Mbps mode. After having started the recording I plugged in the USB cable (red LED went on) and waited. After about 20 minutes the yellow LED came on and the camera was recognized as a mass storage device. Waited one hour more.

When I checked the flash card, there was only a single 20 minute file present (1,5 GB). More than I would have been able to record with the 3-minute charging alone. Apparently, from the close-and-continue function only the close function worked.
Afterwards I checked the flash card for errors. No hidden files (e.g. FILE0000.chk) were found.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 06:12 PM
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Tom Frank's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepinside View Post
I emptied the internal battery by letting it run (normal 2*20 minutes were recorded), then formatted the flash card (8GB Kingston). I then charged the cam for about 3 minutes via an unmodified USB, just enough to be able to start a new recording. Removed the the USB cable.
Then I started a new recording in the 10Mbps mode. After having started the recording I plugged in the USB cable (red LED went on) and waited. After about 20 minutes the yellow LED came on and the camera was recognized as a mass storage device. Waited one hour more.

When I checked the flash card, there was only a single 20 minute file present (1,5 GB). More than I would have been able to record with the 3-minute charging alone. Apparently, from the close-and-continue function only the close function worked.
Afterwards I checked the flash card for errors. No hidden files (e.g. FILE0000.chk) were found.
Thanks for the test results. Did I understand you correctly, you were using a standard USB cable connected to your PC for this test? So the recording did not continue after the 20 minutes stop and save function.

But, this is not quite identical to a standard generic wall or car charger, because they typically have no data lines connected, whereas your PC USB cable would and could communicate with your camera.

Do you have a wall wart or car generic USB charger, such as for a cell phone, that would not have the data line signals present to repeat this test? That is what we really want to know for sure. It could be that the camera detects the USB data lines when it stops after 20 minutes of recording, and THAT is what stops the "continue" portion of the sequence.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 07:22 PM
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Davison, MI
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Avidemux in Vista - 2 Pass with 3D and Sharpness Filters

Hey Tom,

Yup those setting worked!!


http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1332

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1333


The video looks the best yet. You're correct about how it looks. The blurring is still there but better, the "slower shots" look REALLY good.

I will be interested to see my results once I get outside but I am seeing my videos looking as good as those posted here earlier!!!

Thanks again for the help "Obi-Tom Kanobi" !!! You were my only hope !!!!

I have some others here that are asking about these cams and I now have a simple set of options now that I can recommend and not have to babysit each set up. Cool....

I can't get back to the gym for 2 weeks but I will be reviving Underdog to do some cam sorties. He carry's 2 mounts and flys much slower with the cams more isolated from vibrations. Speed of Lightning and the Roar of Thunder !!!

Never fear the HD Cam Underdog is here !!!

Joe
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 08:20 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joespeeder View Post
Hey Tom,

Yup those setting worked!!


http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1332

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1333


The video looks the best yet. You're correct about how it looks. The blurring is still there but better, the "slower shots" look REALLY good.

I will be interested to see my results once I get outside but I am seeing my videos looking as good as those posted here earlier!!!

Thanks again for the help "Obi-Tom Kanobi" !!! You were my only hope !!!!
...
Joe
Considering how light and "flimsy" the indoor birds are and the lighting, your vibration and motion blurring is really pretty minimal, I'd say.

When you get outside in brighter light, if your camera is like mine, I think you will find that the colors "bloom", or get very rich and over-saturated with contrast also increasing. The colors on mine look most natural when the light is not real bright. If you find that is also the case with yours, you should first apply the "Mplayer eq2" filter in the "Colors" category. This is a very useful filter for color correction. I tone down my color saturation setting to about 65-75 and decrease the contrast down to a 90 setting. For my camera, this makes colors look more natural, but in the process, it improves the detail in darker shadow areas, and seems to also minimize the "hot spot" effect in the center of the video. Play with the settings to see what works best for your camera. You will probably find that the de-noise filter is not needed in brighter outdoor lighting.

The order in which the filters are applied can make a difference in the results, too. I try to apply color correction first, then noise reduction if needed, then sharpness, and finally any rotation or resizing that might be required.

Glad you got things working to your satisfaction!
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Old Feb 04, 2011, 01:30 AM
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Has anyone found the best wide angle lens to use on the HD version of this keycam?

I used to use both the .67x lens, and 180degree lens (put links at the bottom), with great success with the old standard def keychain cam. They worked great to widen the field of view, and still remain sharp. However my experience so far with the HD cam is that although they do widen the field of view, the edges end up very seriously blurry.

I'm no lens expert but, I've been analyzing these lenses. I'm thinking its because the old keycam had a narrower field of view to begin with that shoots right through the good part of the lens and then gets widened. Ending up with a nice wide image that is crisp all the way to the edges (but plagued with distortion, timestamp, and dropped frames) But the HD keycam has a slightly wider field of view that ends up shooting through the sides of the lenses more which appear to cause the blur. So although it performs better stock with no lens, I really want to find a inexpensive way to get a wider field of view.


http://www.dealextreme.com/p/univers...l-phones-14953

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/15mm-de...-cameras-39814
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Old Feb 04, 2011, 08:10 AM
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It might be better if you can get the WA lens closer to the camera lens, if that's possible???
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Old Feb 04, 2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by victapilot View Post
It might be better if you can get the WA lens closer to the camera lens, if that's possible???
Potentially could be possible, I did think of that, but it would require really butchering both the lens and camera with a dremel. Only way to get it closer would be to cut out much of the plastic off the keycam, and carefully grind off about about 1-2 millimeters from the rim of the lens. I'd possibly do it if it was known and well documented to work good, but don't think I want to try just for an expiriment.
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Old Feb 04, 2011, 02:24 PM
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Maybe could test out of the case, unless someone can suggest a better way. I would not get the Dremel to work until confirmed either. Even taking the cam out of the case has some risk, maybe not worth it.
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Old Feb 04, 2011, 02:55 PM
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USA, KS, Wichita
Joined Jul 2010
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After having the camera for a while, I finally worked up the courage to try and remove the time stamp and, guess what? Worked just fine!

Thanks for all the great info, guys.
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Old Feb 05, 2011, 01:23 AM
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I just did some pretty accurate tests of the new HD camera's field of view with various lenses, as well as the old #3 camera's field of view for comparison, using a protractor setup.

I tested them stock, with the .67x lens, and with the 180 fish eye lens, and here are the results.

HD cam
wide ------------ tall
54 degrees ____ 32 degrees _______ stock, no lens
77 degrees ____ 45 degrees _______ .67x lens
129 degrees ____ 67 degrees _______ 180 fish eye lens

#3 cam
wide ------------- tall
37 degrees ____ 28 degrees _______ stock, no lens
53 degrees ____ 39 degrees _______ .67x lens
77 degrees ____ 57 degrees _______ 180 fish eye lens

A couple other things to note, the HD cam definetly had better low light performance (I did these tests indoors under a CFL bulb, and could definetly see a drastic difference in quality in the difficult lighting condition.

Also based on my limited experience so far, when using the .67x lens or 180 lens on the HD cam, it seems to cause some very considerable blurring on the edges. It seems to affect distant objects to a much greater effect than close objects (trees while flying will be very blurry, close objects while pointing around your porch or something not as much). That doesn't happen on the #3 camera. However you notice the HD camera basically has roughly the same field of view just stock, as a old #3 did with a .67 lens.

Also using the 180 fish eye lens on the HD cam most definetly causes a serious fish eye effect and lots of distortion. In my opinion the distortion is so great you wouldn't want to ever use it unless you are actually specifically wanting the fish eye effect, or really need a super wide angle. The #3 camera however can use the 180 fish eye lens and it looks pretty good, like a normal wide angle lens, without a drastic fish eye effect (but granted not nearly the same field of view.

tags (in case anyone needs to search for these results later): keychain keycam hd #3 camera field of view test , fov test, lens test, angle test, .67x, 180 fish eye
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Old Feb 05, 2011, 10:05 AM
What? Not a T-Rex!!!
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USA, CO, Colorado Springs
Joined Mar 2008
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Ordered mine!
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Old Feb 05, 2011, 01:37 PM
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South Orange County, CA
Joined Mar 2003
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This thread is a great resource, especially with Tom's "index" up front. One thing I haven't found an answer to, however, is whether or not these are sold anywhere here in the States? Is eBay, via HK, the only way you can get them?

Thanks -- Gary
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Old Feb 05, 2011, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
Did I understand you correctly, you were using a standard USB cable connected to your PC for this test? So the recording did not continue after the 20 minutes stop and save function.

But, this is not quite identical to a standard generic wall or car charger, because they typically have no data lines connected, whereas your PC USB cable would and could communicate with your camera.

Do you have a wall wart or car generic USB charger, such as for a cell phone, that would not have the data line signals present to repeat this test? That is what we really want to know for sure. It could be that the camera detects the USB data lines when it stops after 20 minutes of recording, and THAT is what stops the "continue" portion of the sequence.
Yes, I used a standard USB cable. Unfortunately I don't have a wall wart or car generic charger, so I can't test that.
I experience the same "problems" other users reported with the emergency charger when trying to use it to prolong the recording. I, too, find it strange that it works with car charger.
Can someone with the test equipment and greater knowledge have a further look into this? E.g., what is the voltage output from the car charger?

Also I'm trying to do the pin4-modification (with data lines absent) on a standard USB cable for use at the PC, but I don't get it to work (no charging at all). May be my limited soldering skills/equipment.
Has anyone done this successfully?
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Old Feb 05, 2011, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGoodrum View Post
This thread is a great resource, especially with Tom's "index" up front. One thing I haven't found an answer to, however, is whether or not these are sold anywhere here in the States? Is eBay, via HK, the only way you can get them?

Thanks -- Gary
Yes. As of now, there are no other sales sources for these. There was reportedly some kind of US "exclusive rights to sell" deal being discussed with a "big US retailer", but so far this has not materialized.

But those who have purchased from the first four eBay stores I listed have gotten excellent service, so I would not hesitate to order from them.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Feb 05, 2011 at 02:41 PM. Reason: spelling
Old Feb 05, 2011, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
Yes. As of now, there are no other sales sources for these. There was reportedly some kind of US "exclusive rights to sell" deal being discussed with a "big US retailer", but so far this has not materialized.

But those who have purchased from the first four eBay stores I listed have gotten excellent service, so I would not hesitate to order from them.
Okay, thanks. I placed an order, but I'm trying to find out if I can get expedited shipping. So far all I've received is an auto-replay saying they are gone until after the New Year holidays, so no response until then, I guess.

-- Gary
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Old Feb 05, 2011, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepinside View Post
Also I'm trying to do the pin4-modification (with data lines absent) on a standard USB cable for use at the PC, but I don't get it to work (no charging at all). May be my limited soldering skills/equipment.
Has anyone done this successfully?
Can answer this myself now: successfully done.

I first tried to solder on the Mini-B plug of an USB cable I didn't use anymore, which was kind of difficult for me to get good access to. I broke off pins while trying to remove the "adhesive" around them. I also struggled with the smallness of the plug.
This time I disassembled one of the car chargers because I knew the Mini-B plug is already modified. I then soldered the +5V and Ground cables on an old A plug which for me was far easier to do.

Emptied the internal battery of the cam by letting it run. Plugged the modified USB cable in the PC USB slot. No LED comes on; I waited a few seconds, then turned on the cam (yellow LED), recorded for about 10 minutes, manually stopped it. Turned the cam off (yellow LED disappears), while its still connected to the PC via USB. No LED can be seen. So far same behavior as with the car charger in the car.
I will next test the close-and-continue function.

UPDATE:
Close-and-continue works with the modified USB at PC. Just recorded 2 hours 10 minutes (7 files) on a 8GB Kingston card after using Jantares method to switch to the 7Mbps mode and with the internal battery empty. File sizes on the 6 20-minute-files are not 1.03 GB each but vary between 1.044.402 KB (smallest file) and 1.311.888 KB (biggest file).
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Old Feb 05, 2011, 06:56 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined Jan 2011
41 Posts
Does someone noticed that some #11 cameras has a malfunction with the exposure levels and I think also with the white balance in the center?! As s result of that there is ... I don't know how to call it - red/pink bright spot appearing.

Some random sample images:
1) Eagle-Eye post #1319:



2) feath3r post #1191


3)feath3r post #1166


4) ShinG0 post #1103


I googled the problem and I found - that malfunction appears with other devices too:
1) iPhone 4 has green spot in camera
2) Nexus One Camera Issue Same as HD2

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Old Feb 05, 2011, 10:01 PM
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AleG's Avatar
Bangkok
Joined Oct 2007
1,633 Posts
I just found this thread, it's just what I was waiting for! I ordered one camera to try it out last night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carl1864 View Post
I just did some pretty accurate tests of the new HD camera's field of view with various lenses, as well as the old #3 camera's field of view for comparison, using a protractor setup.

I tested them stock, with the .67x lens, and with the 180 fish eye lens, and here are the results.

HD cam
wide ------------ tall
54 degrees ____ 32 degrees _______ stock, no lens
77 degrees ____ 45 degrees _______ .67x lens
129 degrees ____ 67 degrees _______ 180 fish eye lens

#3 cam
wide ------------- tall
37 degrees ____ 28 degrees _______ stock, no lens
53 degrees ____ 39 degrees _______ .67x lens
77 degrees ____ 57 degrees _______ 180 fish eye lens

...
I would say a 90 degree field of view would be optimal; I got a bit lost in the thread but didn't someone contact the manufacturer already over some firmware issues? It would be good to contact again to ask about having an even wider lens on the camera, or even better being able to buy different lens sizes.
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 01:22 AM
So Cal FPV Aviator
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USA, CA, Santa Clarita
Joined Feb 2008
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Hey guys,

So I have been looking through all 90 pages, and I have only seen a handful of videos and almost no one with a full flight - can someone post some full flight videos?!?

Also - I have only seen one video where the image quality is absolutely superb. Its this one...

808HD test focus (0 min 45 sec)


All the other ones I have seen come no where close. Whats the trick? Is the quality control on these things that bad!?

I really wanna see some more vids where this quality is replicated. Does anyone have any?
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeFlyPlanes View Post

I really wanna see some more vids where this quality is replicated. Does anyone have any?
You may have to wait for the sun to come out.
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AleG View Post
I just found this thread, it's just what I was waiting for! I ordered one camera to try it out last night.



I would say a 90 degree field of view would be optimal; I got a bit lost in the thread but didn't someone contact the manufacturer already over some firmware issues? It would be good to contact again to ask about having an even wider lens on the camera, or even better being able to buy different lens sizes.
I've already done this and was told better lenses are available, but are too big to fit the threaded boss that holds teh CMOS chip.
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 11:59 AM
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mavlo77's Avatar
The Netherlands
Joined Oct 2008
1,224 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeFlyPlanes View Post
Hey guys,

So I have been looking through all 90 pages, and I have only seen a handful of videos and almost no one with a full flight - can someone post some full flight videos?!?

Also - I have only seen one video where the image quality is absolutely superb. Its this one...

http://vimeo.com/18631140

All the other ones I have seen come no where close. Whats the trick? Is the quality control on these things that bad!?

I really wanna see some more vids where this quality is replicated. Does anyone have any?
Until now no good weather here. Dark and gray, so you can't expect crisp images. The example you post is with extremely clear skies, combined with a very contrasting landscape. Hopefully some nice weather here soon... For sure I will post my video's.
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 06:02 PM
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USA, CA, Santa Clarita
Joined Feb 2008
3,575 Posts
Ok well how about videos that show the wide angle lens mod was done?
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 06:19 PM
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Ithaca, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeFlyPlanes View Post
Ok well how about videos that show the wide angle lens mod was done?

Yes, I sure would like to see how people are mounting the .67mm lens to their keychain cam. Are we talking about just epoxy-ing it on, or what?

<OFFTRACK>

Also, in regards to the firmware. I am hoping and wishing that a new firmware will be released with two additional features.
a) continuous recording, and
b) save file on low battery.

However, in thinking about this, it seems like this will only be possible if there is some voltage/current monitoring going on. Specifically, if there is no voltage/current monitor for the chip, then there is no way for it to detect low battery, and to save the recording before the camera shuts down, and without that, there is no way to have continuous recording without an auto-save every 20 minutes to make sure you have _something_ recorded if the battery dies.

So, I wonder what the possibility is that the chip is monitoring the battery, and to have these features in a firmware upgrade?

</OFFTRACK>
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepinside View Post
Can answer this myself now: successfully done.

I first tried to solder on the Mini-B plug of an USB cable I didn't use anymore, which was kind of difficult for me to get good access to. I broke off pins while trying to remove the "adhesive" around them. I also struggled with the smallness of the plug.
This time I disassembled one of the car chargers because I knew the Mini-B plug is already modified. I then soldered the +5V and Ground cables on an old A plug which for me was far easier to do.
I've managed to mod a cable too. I had a few mini-usb to USB A cables I could afford to ruin. I've come across two styles of mini-usb plug - one has moulded plastic and some sort of rubbery filler that seems to be glued to the internals of the plug. This was near impossible to rip off to enable soldering. Other plugs are just a clam shell design and can be very easy opened by pusing a craft knife in to the side of the plug.

A note of soldering... 5v needs to be connected to pin x - which is the 4th pin on the mini-usb cable - but actually labeled pin-x if you are working from a wiring diagram.

I was using a regular sized soldering iron... it was going to be quite hit or miss, I ended up leaving a massive blob of solder on the pin (and those surrounding it. Luckily I had a solder pump and when I tried to remove it, it sucked off the perfect amount and miraculously I ended up with clear unbridged connections.
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 08:36 PM
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Michigan
Joined Feb 2006
502 Posts
Wouldnt it be easier to put a slit in a usb-mini cable and clip the 2 data wires?
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 10:25 PM
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Although there are 5 pins in a miniusb plug, there are only 4 cables, the x-pin is not connected - so you need to get right into the plug. To connect to the ground pin I did as you suggested and stripped a bit of wire and then used my soldering iron to melt a section of the ground wire and soldered in there.

The other issue I've noticed when powering off the mains (via a 12v plug, into the supplied car adaptor taking it down to 5v) is that there is some sort of electrical noise. I'm not sure if it's from the switching adaptor in the wall wart, or just noise from the AC being converted to DC... but it is apparant in the final video. Maybe it can be reduced with a good sized capactor? I tried with a 1000uf one that I rescued from an old radio, but it had no effect... but then I wasn't positive the capacitor was in working order.
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 11:06 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiffy82517 View Post
Although there are 5 pins in a miniusb plug, there are only 4 cables, the x-pin is not connected - so you need to get right into the plug. To connect to the ground pin I did as you suggested and stripped a bit of wire and then used my soldering iron to melt a section of the ground wire and soldered in there.

The other issue I've noticed when powering off the mains (via a 12v plug, into the supplied car adaptor taking it down to 5v) is that there is some sort of electrical noise. I'm not sure if it's from the switching adaptor in the wall wart, or just noise from the AC being converted to DC... but it is apparant in the final video. Maybe it can be reduced with a good sized capactor? I tried with a 1000uf one that I rescued from an old radio, but it had no effect... but then I wasn't positive the capacitor was in working order.
If the "pin-x" you are referring to is Pin 4 of the USB plug, if you read back through this thread, you'll find that pin should have the +5V normally found on pin 1 disconnected and reloctated to pin 4. Pin 5 next to it would be negative ground, and you should add some hot glue or some other insulating material between thos two pins to make sure they don't accidentally come in contact.
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 11:13 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeFlyPlanes View Post
Hey guys,

So I have been looking through all 90 pages, and I have only seen a handful of videos and almost no one with a full flight - can someone post some full flight videos?!?

Also - I have only seen one video where the image quality is absolutely superb. Its this one...

http://vimeo.com/18631140

All the other ones I have seen come no where close. Whats the trick? Is the quality control on these things that bad!?

I really wanna see some more vids where this quality is replicated. Does anyone have any?
I'm pretty sure that clip was posted after the lens was re-focused to better resolve distant objects. These cameras come with the focus set for the near field, not the far field. It normally only takes about a 5 deg. rotation of the lens (usually clockwise looking at the front of the lens) to shift the focus out to more distant objects. See post 3 in this thread for a link to how best to do this.
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Old Feb 06, 2011, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred79 View Post
...
<OFFTRACK>
Also, in regards to the firmware. I am hoping and wishing that a new firmware will be released with two additional features.
a) continuous recording, and
b) save file on low battery.

However, in thinking about this, it seems like this will only be possible if there is some voltage/current monitoring going on. Specifically, if there is no voltage/current monitor for the chip, then there is no way for it to detect low battery, and to save the recording before the camera shuts down, and without that, there is no way to have continuous recording without an auto-save every 20 minutes to make sure you have _something_ recorded if the battery dies.

So, I wonder what the possibility is that the chip is monitoring the battery, and to have these features in a firmware upgrade?
</OFFTRACK>
Not off track for this thread at all.

If you will take the time to search this thread, you will find that part a) is already in the works, and I am suppose to be sent the firmwarre to do this shortly after the Chinese new year is over. Hopely that means this month.

You're right about part b). I've been told by the camera vendor it is supposed to already work this way, but I have tested mine and it does not save a recording in progress if the battery dies. Others have reported theirs does. So, it remains to be seen how this turns out.
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 12:46 AM
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finster's Avatar
Michigan
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502 Posts
Jiffy-

Ah...I get it now...the X pin has no wire...(123x4) I thought you could cut the data wires and splice the power wire to the "X-pin" wire...
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 05:10 AM
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Switzerland
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Hi guys, thanks for the excellent thread, lots of info.

I got the HD720 camera from eBay seller hxelepro360, took only 9 days to arrive to Switzerland. A couple notes:
- firmware update to remove timestamp worked without issues
- focus range was acceptable, I won't mess with it
- AOV is a bit less than 52 degrees, so not quite at 58 as reported here on post 314, but closer to the 54 reported on post 1343
- Bitrate is 10.8Mbps

On the negative side, the camera struggles with color saturation, not much because it's too high or too low on average, but because it fluctuates a lot, you can see the camera chasing the right balance every time there's a small change in the light conditions. Check the attached snapshots, taken few seconds apart with the heli in stable hover: all it takes is a slight change in the amount of light (heli pointing a bit more toward the sky) and saturation increases significantly.

Is there a way to sort of "average" saturation, during post-processing?





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Old Feb 07, 2011, 06:58 AM
jhi
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Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120ccpm View Post
Hi guys, thanks for the excellent thread, lots of info.

...
- AOV is a bit less than 52 degrees, so not quite at 58 as reported here on post 314, but closer to the 54 reported on post 1343
...
I think that there is some confusion here about AOV. Have a look at post 314 again - Tom Frank stated that "it would take a 58.2 deg. AOV to capture the corner-to-corner image of his video". If you take my horizontal measurements (bottom of message), width=810mm and distance=835mm, you arrive at 51.75.

/Jan
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 07:25 AM
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Switzerland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhi View Post
I think that there is some confusion here about AOV. Hava a look at post 314 again - Tom Frank stated that "it would take a 58.2 deg. AOV to capture the corner-to-corner image of his video". If you take my measurement (bottom of message) width 810mm and distance 835mm you arrive at 51.75 degrees.
Yes, I'm not sure where the 58.2 comes from, maybe Tom was talking about the diagonal AOV, as he says "corner-to-corner", while you and I are referring to the horizontal AOV (and we arrive at the same numbers: 51.75 for you, 51.74 for me).
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 07:42 AM
jhi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120ccpm View Post
Yes, I'm not sure where the 58.2 comes from, maybe Tom was talking about the diagonal AOV, as he says "corner-to-corner", while you and I are referring to the horizontal AOV (and we arrive at the same numbers: 51.75 for you, 51.74 for me).
I probably should let Tom Frank answer this himself to avoid more confusion , but I can see he combined both the width 810mm and height 455mm measurements with distance 835mm to arrive at the correct diagonal AOV 58.2.

/Jan
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 08:17 AM
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Sounds like all are correct. There's a table here about 2/3 down which shows horizontal, vertical and diagonal, and the 35mm film lens equivalent. The exact formula for the 35mm conversion is on Chuck's page
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120ccpm View Post
Is there a way to sort of "average" saturation, during post-processing?
Some software has "auto-level" video filter that might help. Probably best to convert to MJPEG first.
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victapilot View Post
Sounds like all are correct. There's a table here about 2/3 down which shows horizontal, vertical and diagonal, and the 35mm film lens equivalent. The exact formula for the 35mm conversion is on Chuck's page
Looks like this has been sorted out. I was interested in corner-to-corner AOV to diminish the vignetting if a suitable replacement lens could be found.
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victapilot View Post
Some software has "auto-level" video filter that might help. Probably best to convert to MJPEG first.
One of the color filters in AviDemux has an auto-white level toggle. I tried it on one clip, and it looked like it might have helped a small amount, but I didn't combine before/after images side by side to compare. It certainly did not eliminate the "hunting" this camera does. But I also did not first output to MJPEG... don't know if that would make a difference... I thought each frame was fully reconstructed before any of the filter action was applied. WHen I get my replacement camera, I will experiment with this more. I also want to try that vignetting correction filter that VDub has.
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 10:59 AM
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Bangkok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120ccpm View Post
Hi guys, thanks for the excellent thread, lots of info.

I got the HD720 camera from eBay seller hxelepro360, took only 9 days to arrive to Switzerland. A couple notes:
- firmware update to remove timestamp worked without issues
- focus range was acceptable, I won't mess with it
- AOV is a bit less than 52 degrees, so not quite at 58 as reported here on post 314, but closer to the 54 reported on post 1343
- Bitrate is 10.8Mbps

On the negative side, the camera struggles with color saturation, not much because it's too high or too low on average, but because it fluctuates a lot, you can see the camera chasing the right balance every time there's a small change in the light conditions. Check the attached snapshots, taken few seconds apart with the heli in stable hover: all it takes is a slight change in the amount of light (heli pointing a bit more toward the sky) and saturation increases significantly.

Is there a way to sort of "average" saturation, during post-processing?





The non HD keychain camera suffers from the same, it's a losing battle to try to edit the colours to get an even look, even with professional video editing software (we have After Effects at work, also Premiere and Nuke, but I haven't got around trying them)
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 11:04 AM
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Tom, since you seem to have a direct connection to the manufacturer, I think it could be worth mentioning this "hunting effect"...
I'm not an expert, but by simple observation it appears that this camera is trying too hard to adjust saturation, going from one extreme to another: maybe I'm totally off, but reducing the available range might give better results.

I know we ask a lot for $40...
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 11:37 AM
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Hello, just got mines from Eletoponline. Both have a red lens. Didn't have time to check further yet. They seem to work.
One question tho: is there a special way to format the SD? One of the Micro SD 4Go class 4 (no name) I got simply doesn't work on both camera. Is it just not good enough?
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 11:39 AM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined Jan 2011
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I ordered another camera and I contacted my seller (eletoponline365) again:
Quote:
Hello friend.
I hope, that you have had great and happy holidays.
I ordered another camera from you. This time I insist to have test and send me real videos made especially with my future camera, I don't wаnt to get another bad camera with focus malfunction. I will send my payment for the camera as soon as you send me that videos.
Thanks for your understanding.
Svilen.
And now, I'm waiting...
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 01:23 PM
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France
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hey thanks to this thread i received mine today i am really happy with it , cant wait to put it on the plane , i hope some one will get AV/out of this thing
darkside of the dog . (0 min 6 sec)
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 02:05 PM
Just thumbing through...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
Looks like this has been sorted out. I was interested in corner-to-corner AOV to diminish the vignetting if a suitable replacement lens could be found.
I finally got around to measuring the lens assembly diameter for my venerable #3, it's only 5.4mm. The lens itself is big, but no joy for a HD808 swap
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 08:44 PM
Must not buy more planes!
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USA, KS, Wichita
Joined Jul 2010
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Some footage from a quick flight with mine:
Radian Glider doing Loops (2 min 14 sec)


I am getting a big difference in color balance between the center of the image and the border, as well as some visible vignetting. I'm attaching a screen grab of what should be a fairly homogeneous landscape. It was a mostly cloudly/overcast day, so the lighting is pretty even.

When you look at samples from different areas in the frame, however, there's a big difference. I'm also seeing a difference is sharpness between the center and the rest of the frame.
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 08:53 PM
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Canton, Michigan USA
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I think back a few years and all you had was one of these with something like 320 by 280 resolution and it cost $75. We certainly want a lot out of a $40 HD camera the size of key fob:
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Last edited by Prof100; Feb 07, 2011 at 09:15 PM.
Old Feb 07, 2011, 08:56 PM
Must not buy more planes!
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USA, KS, Wichita
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Here is a blow-up from two frames, taken less than one second apart, showing the same chunk of Kansas scenery. In first image, the scene was near the bottom edge, in the center of the frame. In the second image, from several frames later, the scenery has drifted to the right edge of the frame and up somewhat.

You can see that the second is darker, bluer/less red, and less sharp.
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclarkson View Post
Some footage from a quick flight with mine:
http://vimeo.com/19651185

I am getting a big difference in color balance between the center of the image and the border, as well as some visible vignetting. I'm attaching a screen grab of what should be a fairly homogeneous landscape. It was a mostly cloudly/overcast day, so the lighting is pretty even.

When you look at samples from different areas in the frame, however, there's a big difference. I'm also seeing a difference is sharpness between the center and the rest of the frame.
What you are getting is pretty much the name of the game with this inexpensive camera, but if you look at the latest FlyCamOneHD, it has the same problems, is much bigger, much heavier, and costs $170. Yes, it is also more versatile, but in terms of picture quality, I can't see any difference from our HD key cam. So here's the deal...

The lens is cheap, it has vignetting on the right/left edges and all four corners. Also the focal plane is not flat, so the right/left edges and all four corners, which are much further from the lens axis, have a slightly different focus from the center. If you focus the center perfectly, the edges and corners will be slightly out. If you focus the edges and corners perfectly, the center will be slightly out. A few of the cameras seem to also have the CMOS sensor array not bottomed out flat in the lens module, so it is not perpendicular to the lens axis like it should be, and the focus in not consistently the same across the entire frame for that reason as well. I had one and just exchanged it, but fortunately there seem to be few with that issue.

<EDIT> Much/most of the edge and corner color change and darkening due to lens vignetting can be corrected by post-processing with certain editors,
such as shown here. Also more discussion of color issues here and here. Also, the camera case could be blocking some light entering the lens causing increased vignetting, such as discussed here.
<EDIT>

Also, the cameras CMOS sensor is very sensitive to light level, and it seems to not hold the color saturation and/or white balance the same as light level changes. This can result in very noticeable changes in color as you pan the camera, getting more or less sky in the picture, or more/less sun.

SO it is what it is... a $40 HD camera with some drawbacks that might be expected at that price point.

As an aside, I just got a second camera (v2) which has what appears to be the first change in a key circuit component with this camera... the CMOS sensor. Is it any better? Yes and no. It seems to have much less "color hunting" as light level changes, but less sensitivity in low light conditions (more video "noise"). And the vignetting and color changes along the edges is still there.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Sep 20, 2011 at 10:33 PM. Reason: revised info on the version 2 camera
Old Feb 07, 2011, 09:47 PM
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Bangkok
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I've bought a couple 3.6mm CCD camera lenses a few months ago with the idea of replacing the stock lens of a keychain camera (or a similar camera sensor on an FPV setup), but I haven't got the time to do much about it. Disassembling a cheap web cam to test the idea yielded an adapter for the 3.6mm lens so that would make things easier. Now I just need to get a keychain camera, remove the lens support (at least partially), and see how the thing works.
I would expect having actual glass for the lens should make a good improvement in image quality, of course the penalty is that the 3.6mm lens has a metal frame so it's relatively heavy (4 or 5 grams if I remember correctly) compared with an uncased keychain camera.
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AleG View Post
I've bought a couple 3.6mm CCD camera lenses a few months ago with the idea of replacing the stock lens of a keychain camera (or a similar camera sensor on an FPV setup), but I haven't got the time to do much about it. Disassembling a cheap web cam to test the idea yielded an adapter for the 3.6mm lens so that would make things easier. Now I just need to get a keychain camera, remove the lens support (at least partially), and see how the thing works.
I would expect having actual glass for the lens should make a good improvement in image quality, of course the penalty is that the 3.6mm lens has a metal frame so it's relatively heavy (4 or 5 grams if I remember correctly) compared with an uncased keychain camera.
Another user is also pursuing this approach.

FWIW, I have located a lens with glass, asperical lenses that has a 7mm thread which, I think, should screw right into the existing lens mount. It appears to have the same AOV of the stock lens, but has no IR filter on the rear surface like the stock lens. Downside is it costs about the same as the acmera, and still would need to have an appropriate IR filter added.
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Old Feb 07, 2011, 11:27 PM
Dance the skies...
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HD KeyCam v2, v3, and Jumbo?

I just got my replacement HD key cam to replace the one with the out of alignment CMOs sensor, and I find it's not the same as the original. I may not be the first one to get this one, but I'll take the time to document what is different about it... some things small... some not so small.

Differences:

1. It did not have the small "QC" stick on the side (and focus was not very good either).

2. I did the date removal firmware swap, and the yellow light did not come on to signal it was finished. Also the, non of the buttons then did anything... appeared bricked (this has been reported before). I connected to a PC USB port, the red LED lit, and I pushed the power button and it went into flash drive mode. I could access the SD card, removed the date off firmware, disconnecte the camera, turned it off and back on... Voila!... everything back to normal with no date stamp. Hmmmm... what's up wit dat?




3. I opened the camera to have a look inside (see pics of #1 and new #2 attached)"
  • The circuit board looked to have the same traces, but they were much finer defined, with some ID of various components on the board, like for LEDs, switches, etc. No date on the newer board, though.
  • The same big IC chips (memory and Video processor) on the processor side are identical, but they don't have the potting compound on the corners of the chips.
  • On the opposite "USB side, the 8 pin chip that was identified as replaceable to unbrick a camera now has an ID number on it.
  • But the biggest difference is the CMOS array. The ribbon cable is has a much different pin-out geometry on it, and the circuitboard terminations are different. And it has an ID number on it (C971P) So what is this newer CMOS, and how does it differ? More testing will be done, and I'll see if MyCameraGal can find out more.
Similarities

1. I check the video bit rate.. it was 7 Mbps like my old one, both before and after the firmware replacement. And it won't toggle into a 10Mbps mode by toggling the still pic mode before taking video.

2. I checked the battery failure file saving... it does not save the file, like my old one.

3. It still has the stop/save/continue function.

4. Webcam mode still works the same.

5. The lens appears to have the same vignetting issues

6. The colors appear to have the same low light level white balance shift. Color saturation change with light level and sensitivity to light intensity ("hunting" issue) needs to be checked.

So other than the different CMOS ribbon cable (and presumed different CMOS array), I see no other differences.

<EDIT 02/19/11> After shooting some video and comparing with my original camera, my subjective opinion is this newer version has better color white balance and is less sensitive to rapidly changing color saturation and contrast as the light level changes, which is good. On the minus side, it appears the low light sensitivity is not as good, so there's more color "noise" in indoor shots. My vendor contact has said this newer version will be all that's sold soon. <EDIT>

<EDIT 6/7/2011> Version #3 of the original #11 key cam was just inroduced, which has some revisions on the circuit board (see attached pic). Based on user feedback, the changes only affect the way the external power cable charges the camera and lights the red LED indicating charging status. Refer to the FAQs in Post #3 for more external power info.

In addition to v3, a new "Jumbo" model was introduced which is functionally identical to v3, but just has a larger internal battery for extended recording time (about 90-120 min.) and comes in three slightly different case designs (pic attached).

<EDIT 1/25/2012> A totally new design 1280x720 HD camera (named the #16) is now available. It has added many user configurable options without having to flash in new firmware. The camera's colors are also more natural looking and stable as well. See this thread dedicated to the #16 for more information.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Jan 27, 2012 at 12:12 AM. Reason: added pics I forgot the first time
Old Feb 07, 2011, 11:56 PM
Must not buy more planes!
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USA, KS, Wichita
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
What you are getting is pretty much the name of the game with this inexpensive camera
I wasn't bitchin', just reporting what I'm seeing with my particular camera.
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Old Feb 08, 2011, 12:58 AM
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Michigan
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502 Posts
Tom-

I did circuit board comparrison and looks exactly the same but the last numbers on my chip are 720A and yours was 707A...remember on my first cam they soldered power wire to a resistor? in your pic it looks like they tampered with same resistor...atleast it looks that way in pic...yes the array does look a bit different...


My last 2 cams I didnt need usb to remove date/time...I used SD adapter...

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Old Feb 08, 2011, 01:12 AM
Dance the skies...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finster View Post
Tom-

I did circuit board comparrison and looks exactly the same but the last numbers on my chip are 720A and yours was 707A...remember on my first cam they soldered power wire to a resistor? in your pic it looks like they tampered with same resistor...atleast it looks that way in pic...yes the array does look a bit different...


My last 2 cams I didnt need usb to remove date/time...I used SD adapter...

Yes, my first camera looked like it might have once had a wire soldered to it, but was removed. But the other wire connection point on the first camera had no such indication. Both cameras have the power connections in the same spots side by side as shown in the pics.

I don't think the numbers you mentioned have any significance other than possibly different production lot numbers. The real difference is in the CMOS ribbon cable. I have sent email to MyCameraGuy and to Omnivision (CMOS manufacturer for Camera number one) to see if they can provide any info. I hope to get some decent focusing lighting weather and video clips tomorrow.

It doesn't matter how you copy the firmware to the SDHC card (via adaptor into your PC card reader, or via USB cable). I did the upgrade with the camera disconnected from the PC as the instructions say, just like I di on the first camera, but the first one came back to life on its' own... the second one did not, until I reconnected the USB cable to access the card (to delete the firmware file). After that it has worked normally.
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Old Feb 08, 2011, 01:58 AM
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AleG's Avatar
Bangkok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
Another user is also pursuing this approach.

FWIW, I have located a lens with glass, asperical lenses that has a 7mm thread which, I think, should screw right into the existing lens mount. It appears to have the same AOV of the stock lens, but has no IR filter on the rear surface like the stock lens. Downside is it costs about the same as the acmera, and still would need to have an appropriate IR filter added.
If I remember correctly, the IR filter on this cameras is a small square or disc of film/glass on the rear of the lens, it's not part of the lens itself. Or at least that's how I remember the one I opened up (I was checking if there was water inside after a splasdown )

In any case it's possible to get IR blocking filters, the easiest way would be to use one meant for SLR camera lenses, cutting it to size.
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Old Feb 08, 2011, 03:05 AM
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Michigan
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Tom-

My 2 newer cams have the same (C971P) on ribbon cable yet the arrays are different on them too...pic...I also noticed the auto chargers have a red light now where my first one had a green light...seems little things change from month to month...
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Old Feb 08, 2011, 04:21 AM
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I just got my camera today, and ran into a bit of a hitch on the firmware change to turn off timestamps. I got it figured out eventually

Anyway, to share it in case anyone else runs into it:

If running Linux on the system used to copy the file to the camera, you will need to rename the firmware file from FW96630A.bin to FW96630A.BIN - the case is sensitive on the extension and the camera will not load it without that change.
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Old Feb 08, 2011, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
I think back a few years and all you had was one of these with something like 320 by 280 resolution and it cost $75. We certainly want a lot out of a $40 HD camera the size of key fob:
+1 such is progress
Mike
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Old Feb 08, 2011, 09:47 AM
Just thumbing through...
victapilot's Avatar
United States, SC, Simpsonville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
One of the color filters in AviDemux has an auto-white level toggle. I tried it on one clip, and it looked like it might have helped a small amount, but I didn't combine before/after images side by side to compare. It certainly did not eliminate the "hunting" this camera does. But I also did not first output to MJPEG... don't know if that would make a difference... I thought each frame was fully reconstructed before any of the filter action was applied. WHen I get my replacement camera, I will experiment with this more. I also want to try that vignetting correction filter that VDub has.
Here's a test with "basic color correction" filter in Ulead. It seems to help a little for #3 cam.
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Old Feb 08, 2011, 10:03 AM
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After further testing, both my cams make an error when auto saving the file after 20 min. The file does exist on the SD (0.98 go) but when I try to read it, Windows display a -2002 error It seems to happen only with auto saved files.
Is that issue SDcard related or camera firmware?
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Old Feb 08, 2011, 10:31 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Palm Beach County, Fl.
Joined Aug 2008
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My new one does the same thing as my old one before I bricked it. It does it to three files if I leave it on continous until it dies. (4gig class 6 sd) No problems with shorter clips, only the auto made files.
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Old Feb 08, 2011, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
My new one does the same thing as my old one before I bricked it. It does it to three files if I leave it on continous until it dies. (4gig class 6 sd) No problems with shorter clips, only the auto made files.
I m trying again with the no timestamp firmware in. Fingers crossed

EDIT: No luck.
Error message is (barely translated ): Error -2002: the sequence contains a bad public atom sequence (PTDC0004.MOV)
Don't know what it really means lol
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Last edited by Teckos; Feb 08, 2011 at 10:57 AM.
Old Feb 08, 2011, 11:02 AM
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use vlc for those auto-saved files, you will be able to watch them
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-windows.html
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Old Feb 08, 2011, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sss111 View Post
use vlc for those auto-saved files, you will be able to watch them
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-windows.html
Cheers! I'll test that home thanks
Is that a common error tho?
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Old Feb 08, 2011, 11:28 AM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,685 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AleG View Post
If I remember correctly, the IR filter on this cameras is a small square or disc of film/glass on the rear of the lens, it's not part of the lens itself. Or at least that's how I remember the one I opened up (I was checking if there was water inside after a splasdown )

In any case it's possible to get IR blocking filters, the easiest way would be to use one meant for SLR camera lenses, cutting it to size.
On both of my cameras the IR filter is circular and affixed to the lens barrel, so it is part of the lens and comes out as part of the lens. An add-on IR filter could be done, but they come with different cutoff wavelengths, so getting the right one for the CMOS sensor characteristics might still require a trial/error test of 2-3 different ones to get the best color rendition.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Feb 08, 2011 at 11:48 AM.
Old Feb 08, 2011, 11:51 AM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,685 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by finster View Post
Tom-

My 2 newer cams have the same (C971P) on ribbon cable yet the arrays are different on them too...pic...I also noticed the auto chargers have a red light now where my first one had a green light...seems little things change from month to month...
Your ribbon cable traces look to be identical to mine, so I guess we have the same camera CMOS array. This might account for why some cameras seem to have more color issues than others.
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