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Old Dec 29, 2010, 08:55 PM
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The REAL (#11) HD Key Cam Thread (PLEASE! READ POSTS #1-#3 BEFORE POSTING QUESTIONS!)

NOTE: POSTS #1-#5 ARE NO LONGER BEING UPDATED BY YOURS TRULY AS OF 05/07/2012. THE ORIGINAL #11 WAS A LATE 2010 VINTAGE CAMERA AND HAS NOW BEEN TOTALLY RE-DESIGNED WITH A DIFFERENT CIRCUIT BOARD (EASILY DIFFERENTIATED BY THE THINNER 8-WIRE MINI-USB PLUG), DIFFERENT CABLES, A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT (THICKER) CASE, AND MOST IMPORTANT, DIFFERENT FIRMWARE! AS SUCH, MUCH OF THIS EARLY INFORMATION, ESPECIALLY THE FIRMWARE, IS NO LONGER APPLICABLE TO THE LATEST DESIGN! ALSO, THE DEVELOPER HAS RELEASED A MORE CAPABLE VERSION (THE #18), BUT THIS THREAD IS BEING KEPT OPEN FOR ON-GOING DISCUSSION AND WILL BE SUPPORTED MOSTLY BY OTHER MEMBERS HERE WHO FREQUENT THIS THREAD AND ARE STILL USING THE #11 CAMERA. ENJOY!

<EDIT 9/25/11> Temporary Opinion Poll Here on the camera file format (poll is now closed, but results still viewable).<EDIT>

This thread has been started as a repository for information exchange, sample videos, etc. for ONLY the new, real, #11 1280x720 HD version of the ubiquitous "key chain camera" and it's use in capturing ground and aerial video of RC planes. Please keep posts and video links on-topic!. Off-topic videos are OK ONLY IF they show some problem or solution for getting good video from the camera. This thread should not be used to post normal off-topic videos from the camera showing what you did last weekend!

Be aware there are key chain cameras that have the same case and advertise they are "HD" with frame sizes of both 1280x960 and even an identical 1280x720, but they are both just up-converted image from the lower resolution 640x480 CMOS sensor in that old stlye of "808" camera. Their video has much lower resolution and a very high rate of dropped frames... as much as 40%! The telltale to distinguish those fake versions are the video codec used (MJPEG) and the file format (.AVI).

This new, true HD camera has a native 1 mega-pixel CMOS sensor that can capture 1280x720 frames at 30 fps, with no dropped frames with most any normal daytime illumination. And it uses the H.264 video codec to produce high quality, small file size video, packaged in a .MOV file format. Please restrict your posts to only this version of the key camera... there are already other threads that discuss the lower resolution versions at length.

The only real similarity between this HD camera and the old 808 version is the case. Inside this is a totally different design with more sophisticated components. Any hacks, mods, etc. that were done to the old 808 are not directly applicable to this camera. That's why this thread dedicated to the HD key cam was started. The first few posts in this thread are reserved to compile information and links to topics that frequently come up. I will try to manage this thread to keep these first few posts updated for quick reference and hopefully answer the many questions that seem to come up over and over by newcomers. There is also more information on the Chucklohr.com web site (dubbed the #11 version of the old 808).

<EDIT 2/26/11> A new 1280x720 true HD key camera has been dubbed as the #12 on the chucklohr.com web site. This version has a different style case, is totally different internally, and has inferior video qualities to the #11 camera based on information to date. To avoid confusion, this thread is not intended for discussion of the #12, or any other HD key camera. <EDIT>

If any questions or suggestions for me, please use PM. I hope you find this thread useful and informative, or at least enjoyable. Your contributions to this end are solicited.

Tom Frank
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Dec 10, 2012 at 07:04 AM. Reason: updated the support notice paragraph to note the #18 successor
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 08:55 PM
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Camera Identification, Specs, and Sources

So far, 12 eBay stores (linked by some business arrangement) have been identified selling the REAL #11 HD key cam. There has been no negative user feedback posted here on any of these stores, and positive feedback has been posted of receiving good service and vendors standing behind their product if any problems come up that are not caused by user abuse, crash damage, etc. I bought my camera from the first one, hxelepro360, and can personally recommend this store based on the excellent, speedy service and support both before and after my purchase.

hxelepro360 eletoponline365 digitalele889 beetleonline kdataonline999 Digitaleletech168

power-gps internet-shop365 powerdigital898 eletech086 cuspdigitalele666 Accesseletech2010

Prices can vary slightly from one vendor to the other, and can change from one day to the next. Also, the accessories include with the cameras can vary and can impact the price. The key differences of this camera compared to the old low res "808" version will normally be highlighted in the eBay ad. Look for the frame size and frame rate to be 1280 x 720 @ 30 fps, the H.264 video codec, and/or the .MOV file format. The detailed specification that frequently accompany the add banner may also have these details. Some sample eBay ads and specs for this camera are attached below.

This new HD version is vastly different internally from the old low res version. Internal pictures are attached below, and the original camera (v1) CMOS sensor data sheet is available here. The latest camera versions (v2) appear to have a different CMOS sensor based on the different ribbon cable trace pattern and a number (C971P) printed on it, but this has not been confirmed. Slightly less low light sensitivity has been reported with the v2, but otherwise similar picture quality.

UPDATE 9/19/2011

Another bogus #11HD seller has been identified, with Ebay ID of yysimon0400_cn, and Ebay store name of theworldofsimon. They have pirated an authroized seller web listing and photos, and their camera is not from the #11HD developer. Do not buy from this seller!


UPDATE 7/16/2011

I have been advised by the #11 developer that there is an Ebay seller that is selling fake versions of the #11. Their ads have stolen the exact specs and images from the listings of his eight eBay vendors listed above. They look like the real deal at a bargain price ($30 delivered with an 8GB memory card!), but the developer has confirmed they are NOT his cameras, and so far there is no information on their performance.

SO BUYER BEWARE! The fake #11 camera eBay seller is: fashionjewellery125

If anyone finds any definitive information on the performance of these fake cameras, please PM me.


Update 6/1/2011

The current cameras (v3) are showing a revised circuit board with several new components and a few other components rearranged or deleted. The only difference noted so far is the function of the LEDs when powering the camera via the special cable such as comes on the car charger. The prior version did not show the red charging LED light up when the camera battery was charging and the new one does. A picture showing the differences (circled in yellow) between the v2 and v3 cameras is attached below.

Update 6/2/2011

A new "Jumbo" version of the #11 has just been released. It is functionally identical to the v3 with identical CMOS/Lens module and video processor IC, but has a different circuit board layout and a larger battery, good for about 100 min. recording times. It uses the same firmware and comes in three slightly different case configurations with several different trim schemes as well. Case sizes are 65x35x18mm or 70x34x18mm depending on what style you picked (compare to the original 51x32x14mm case). All of these will be referred to generically as the "Jumbo #11" in this thread and will be given no other special coverage. A photo of the Jumbos and the original is attached.

Update 10/20/2011

The Jumbo version is now also available in a whimsical "Smiley face" case, with the lens oriented on the front of the face (in the mouth). The case is designed to be hung on the post of a car rear view mirror so it can record the travel out through the windshield. Other than those differences, the camera is identical in function to the other Jumbo cameras.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 08:56 PM
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Frequently Asked Questions

note: latest change in FAQ sections shown in green

Basic Camera Function Topics
Camera Video Quality TopicsCamera Audio Quality TopicsVideo Editing
Frankencams
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 08:56 PM
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Basic Editing of HD Key Cam Videos

The HD key cam outputs files (unfortunately) in Apple Quicktime .MOV format with H.264 video codec.

MP4cam2AVI Conversion tool

If you cannot import .MOV format files in your editor, the best way to convert the file is to use the MP4cam2AVI utility available here. It will do a direct stream copy (no recompression) of the source audio and video streams and simply repackage them in an .AVI container which most editors can load. The advantage of this is both speed and quality. Since it is just copying the video and audio streams verbatim without doing any re-encoding, it is very fast... approximately 1 second for each minute of video. And because it does not re-encode, you don't lose any quality.

Some players/editors will not properly decode the direct copied audio, so I usually do re-encode it or turn it off. Selecting one of the .MP3 codecs will produce slightly smaller files.

You'll still need to have the video codec (H.264) on the computer to decode the video, though. The ffdshow codec package mentioned below will provide the codecs if needed. Other tips for using this tool are in this post.

Note: This program can also do some limited re-encoding of the video, join clips together into one, and break up a long video in smaller clips if necessary. More info on this here.


Windows Live Movie Maker (WLMM)

Users who are now running Windows 7 OS can download the free Windows Live Essentials package from Microsoft's web site. This includes the new WLMM which is radically different from all prior versions. It lacks some of the functionality of prior versions, but will directly import and edit the .MOV files, and adds a few features of it's own. Fancy transitions, video effects, text for titles, credits, etc. are all there.

Windows Live Essentials (with WLMM in it) can be download from here.

If you prefer the look/feel of the old XP WMM with the better capability of the Vista version (v 6.0) of WMM, you can also download the latter. Details here.


AviDemux

A decent basic freeware editor that can import and edit the .MOV files directly is AviDemux. It is available in version for Windows, Linux, and Mac. It has similar functionality to VirtualDub, but Vdub can only directly import .AVI files and the H.264 video codec must be added separately.

The latest version of AviDemux can be downloaded from the author's web site here.

An AviDemux user guide is available here.

While this editor does not have the fancy transitions and text tools of WLMM, it has some very powerful filters for visibly improving the color and clarity of the HD key cam video that WLMM cannot do.

Tips and Tricks for editing HD key cam videos with AviDemux


Freemaker Video Converter

This tool can efficiently convert clips from the .MOV format to other formats with other codecs, but unlike the MP4cam2AVI tool, it will re-encode the video, which takes a lot more time and can add a tiny bit of quality loss. But, it adds the ability to also trim out un-wanted sections, rotate/resize videos, and join video clips and pictures together as one final video. While it lacks fancy transitions, video effects, and text titling tools, this may be all that's needed for many people. Buttons to click for direct uploads to YouTube and other hosting sites are also built in. Some tips for using this tool are listed in this post, and the program can be download from here.


VideoPad Editor

This is a commercial product, but can be download for a trial with all functions activated. It is similar to the older WindowsMovieMaker (before WLMM was released), with a few more bells and whistles, like more than one timeline for videos and overlays which not only work for text, sound tracks, and pictures, but also a second video (i.e. picture-in-picture capability). Interestingly, when the trial period expires, if you decide not to buy it, when you start to uninstall it you are given the option to keep a freeware version, which doesn't give up much in functionality! It will still import most video formats, but will only output in AVI, WMV, ASF and DVD formats. And you can't use add-ons, like Vdub filters. But for basic editing, it's a good alternative, even in the freeware version.


Video and Audio Codecs - ffdshow

If your video editor/player does not support the codecs used in the camera's native .MOV file, you will need to add them to your system. The code pack I use and would recommend is ffdshow. This tool is regularly updated to keep it current and/or squash any bugs that might be found.

The latest version of ffdshow can be downloaded here.

Note: The latest revision of ffdshow no longer supports the H.264 video codec for encoding files, but does have the codec for decoding files. If you want to encode with the H.264 video codec, download and install the open source version, x.264vfw, for MS Windows from this source. This gives some info on using the x.264vfw codec with VirtualDub editor, and codec configuration settings that provide good results with #11 video.

Many video players/editors do not support the Apple Quicktime .MOV file format that the HD key cam records. You will need to convert the file from .MOV to a format your software will load. .AVI is usually a universal format for this.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 09:18 PM
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 10:11 PM
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I'm in. Subscribed.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yabbadaba2 View Post
I'm in. Subscribed.
Yabba,

Post your videos and the link to where you bought it.

Bill
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
Yabba,

Post your videos and the link to where you bought it.

Bill
I bought my camera from internet-shop 365 (link in post number 2) for $39.99. A poster in the keyfob thread just mentioned that there is a 5 day sale and the price has dropped by $5 but I'm not sure which of the 4 mentioned above has them for that price.

The link to my YouTube video is

808HD inflight (7 min 51 sec)


It should be watched on the YouTube Site itself by clicking "YouTube" and then click the 720p button to get it in HD instead of YouTube's normal 320p low quality settings.

I am uploading the same video to Vimeo right now (they finally reset my upload counter ) and will edit this post later when the link becomes available.

Once again, watch on the Vimeo site for best rendering and while there (and on YouTube) you can check out some of my other 808HD clips.

Yabba

edit That was quick. Here's the same clip on the Vimeo site for a little better quality then YouTube

808HD Inflight video (7 min 51 sec)


Y.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 10:48 PM
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subscribed I R in. Bought mine from eletoponline365 .Traced delivery and is in California and my location is in Illinois and IN-- -- -- the depths of deep snow.Surmise it will be here soon. I have several other FOB cams and a Go-PRO CAM. Hope the next step is FOB with a CCD sensor. Captn Don
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Captn Don View Post
subscribed I R in. Bought mine from eletoponline365 .Traced delivery and is in California and my location is in Illinois and IN-- -- -- the depths of deep snow.Surmise it will be here soon. I have several other FOB cams and a Go-PRO CAM. Hope the next step is FOB with a CCD sensor. Captn Don
I bought one too on December 19th from the same seller. Did he give you a tracking number? I have heard nothing from him.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 11:01 PM
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Setting, Removing, and Replacing the Date/Time Stamp

Regardless of whether you like, hate, or could care less about the BIG date/time stamp on the HD video, there's something here for you.

Setting The Correct Date And Time

This should be done even if you plan to remove the date stamp from your videos, so the video file time/date tag agrees with the file creation date your PC generates. Though not mentioned in the instruction sheet that came with the cameras, the date and time can be set to your criteria similar to the method used for the old low-res key cam. Here's the details:

METHOD 1
1. Create a plain text file (no font formatting) with just a single text line in the format "year-month-day hour:minutes:seconds" in 24 hour format like this: 2010-12-29 13:34:45

2. Save the file with the name "TIMESET.TXT" and copy it to the flash card root directory (the one that first appears when the card is recognized by the computer). This can be done with an external card reader or with the camera connected to the computer as a USB removable drive. A sample file is attached below.

3. With the card in the camera and the camera unplugged from the computer, turn on the camera. The camera will then read the file, set the date and time, and erase the file from the flash card automatically with no user interaction. Done!

Method 2
To automatically create a TIMESET.txt file in the root directory of your #11 camera flash memory card (copied from the date/time set on your Windows PC), download the excellent time setting utility crafted by Isoprop from this post. This has been shown to work on both XP and W7 (64 bit) PC's, and for PCs that use both mo/dy/year and dy/mo/year date formats. Once the file has been written to the camera flash card, follow step 3., above.


Removing and Restoring The Video Date/Time Stamp

As of the date of this post, all the cameras now being sold by the vendors previously identified should be able to remove and replace the date stamp by copying a new firmware file into the camera flash card root directory and simply turning the camera on, just like setting the date/time. BUT, if your camera was an earlier release version bought before the date of this post, attempting the date removal could "brick" the camera making it inoperative. So be aware of this if you cannot confirm when the camera was purchased. There is no way to tell from the camera's internal components. The risk of this should be low, but if it should happen, contact your vendor for resolution.

Please read through this entire section before starting this to be sure it is clear. Removing and restoring the date stamp is simple and the process is exactly the same for both, with the firmware file used being the only difference.

The latest Rlease 2 "remove time" and "recover time" firmware files are available for download here. They are in separate folders in a self-extracting zipped file because they all have the exact same file names (FW96630A.bin)! Do NOT change the file names! The exact file name is essential for the camera to properly recognize and install firmware.

Be sure your camera has a good charge on the battery before doing this. If the battery should die before the process is complete, you could brick your camera!

The procedure is:

1. Copy the appropriate firmware file (FW96630A.bin) to the camera's flash card root directory. The root directory is the one that first appears when the card is recognized by the computer in flash memory mode or when you click on the camera icon to open its contents folder. This can be done with an external card reader or with the camera connected to the computer as a USB removable drive.

2. With the card in the camera and the camera disconnected from the computer, turn on the camera with a brief press of the power button.

3. The camera will proceed to load the new firmware into its internal memory. The camera LED will NOT light up as it normally would during this process, so don't turn off the camera after you start this process thinking it's not doing anything. You could brick your camera! The yellow LED should turn on after a brief period (5 to 20 sec.) to confirm the firmware has been successfully loaded. If this is the case, ignore the rest of step 3 and got directly to step 4.


On some occcasions the yellow LED does NOT turn back on. If the LED still has not come on after a couple of minutes, the firmware may be properly installed, but the camera locks up. Disconnect the camera and see if it will respond normally to button presses. If it does not and appears dead, before you panic, do the following:
  • Plug camera into USB port, and the red LED should come on.
  • Push the camera "power on" button briefly, and the yellow LED should now come on, toggling the camera normally into it's flash drive mode. Delete the firmware file so it does not attempt to load again the next time the camera is cycled on. Once deleted, you can skip step 4 and go directly to step 5.
4. Delete the firmware file from the flash memory card (it is not automatically deleted). If you skip this step, the camera will again load the firmware the next time it is turned on! The file can be deleted in an external card reader, or with the camera connected to the computer as a removable flash drive. For the latter method, first turn the camera OFF, then plug it into the PC USB port (red LED turns on), then press the camera "power on" button briefly to toggle on the flash drive mode (yellow LED turns on) where you can delete the firmware file.

5. With the firmware removed from the card, the card in the camera, and the camera disconnected from the USB port, turn it on, and shoot a test video to confirm the camera is functioning normally and that your firmware modification has taken effect. That's it, I'm sure you did it correctly... you're done!
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Jun 27, 2011 at 07:01 PM. Reason: Added Method 2 for creating timeset.txt file
Old Dec 29, 2010, 11:10 PM
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Tom, any way of I.D.ing a new vs old camera by any markings on the processor or the hardware I.D.?
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yabbadaba2 View Post
I bought my camera from internet-shop 365 (link in post number 2) for $39.99. A poster in the keyfob thread just mentioned that there is a 5 day sale and the price has dropped by $5 but I'm not sure which of the 4 mentioned above has them for that price.
...
uploading the same video to Vimeo right now (they finally reset my upload counter ) and will edit this post later when the link becomes available.
...
Y.
That $5 discount was a one day sale, and it's now over. I've seen these one day events twice now... they come and go fast... if you blink you miss them.

FYI, Vimeo resets the upload gage every Sunday night. They will only render one HD video there per week with their free service. You can upload more, but after the first HD file, the next one(s) will be rendered in lower VGA resolution, and there is a 500 MB weekly limit (for all files).
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yabbadaba2 View Post
Tom, any way of I.D.ing a new vs old camera by any markings on the processor or the hardware I.D.?
NO, there is no way to tell by looking at the camera innards. The only difference is the camera firmware the upgraded to allow the date stamp patches to work. Having said that, your seller had asked me to identify another buyer (who bricked his trying the date removal) and the date he ordered the camera. So the vendor MIGHT be able to determine which camera you have based on your purchase date. You should check this with him if you want to do the date swap.

Thanks for asking this... I meant to include this info in the post I just finished on date removal and forgot. I need to go back and edit it anyway since the formatting I used seems to have gotten the tags embedded in the text instead of the formatting.

Also, I just viewed your AV... your camera does not show the same dark corners and color hunting in that aerial video like it did in the ground videos. I haven't figured out what might be going on, but I got mine mainly for AV, so I'm glad it 's better in the air if that proves to always be the case.

FWIW, I now see clearly the white and yellow lines on the artificial turf. I sure envy your flying area. We have some single artificial turf fields here... none strung together like that, and ours are surround by tall light pole for night games, and fenced and locked. Not for public use unless you pay to rent them, even though almost all of them are at public schools or public parks.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Dec 30, 2010 at 01:05 AM.
Old Dec 30, 2010, 12:49 AM
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A Non-working Camera May Be Risen From The Dead!

OK... you tried a firmware change and turned your camera in a Zombie! Are you doomed forever? Well maybe not!

<UPDATE 02/18/2012> If your camera turns on with a solid yellow LED, but will not start recording even after trying the reset button and disconnecting the battery, maybe this is the problem!

<UPDATE 09/28/2011> If your camera worked OK, but was then dropped or suffered some other kind of impact, then the yellow LED would not turn on when you next powered up your camera, maybe this is your problem, which can be easily fixed!

<UPDATE 08/16/2011> An alternative "in situ" way to repair mangled boot loader code and firmware. This is a repair of the code in the firmware IC rather than a total replacement of the IC chip as described in the <01/03/2011> update below. This is a tougher solution, but costs nothing to try.

<UPDATE 07/07/2011> Another possible solution.

<UPDATE 02/15/2011>
On infrequent occasions, the firmware is properly installed, but the camera locks up and the Yellow LED does not come back on as it should normally do. Also, the camera will appear dead and not respond to any of the buttom presses or the reset button. Before you panic, the following procedure has worked to restore the camera to normal operation:

1. Plug camera into USB port, and hopefully the red LED will come on.
2. Push the camera "power on" button briefly, and hopefully the yellow LED will now come on, toggling the camera normally into it's flash drive mode.
3. You should then be able to access the camera's flash memory card. If so, delete the firmware file that you copied there.
4. Disconnect the camera from the USB port, turn if off, then attempt to turn it back on again.
5. The camera may now function normally again. Shoot a test video to confirm the firmware was successfully installed.
6. If the above does not work, also try pushing the reset button with the camera connected to the USB port in charge mode.
7. If this does not help, flash in a new firmware file again.
8. If none of that worked, try disconnecting the battery to totally remove power from the camera. Then reconnect the battery and try these solutions again if it is still non-functional.

<UPDATE 01/03/2011>
If you bought your HD key cam from any one of the vendors identified in Post #2 and had your camera not recover from a firmware change, you may inquire about other resolution at this email address:

hotbid365@gmail.com

Though the english is a little rough, they have suggested they will repair or replace your camera in this reply I got from them:
"... we would like to find the problem. then explain. you know the item begain to flood into the market, will come with some problem. but i think that can solve it. as long as have problem, we would like to solve, back the items to me, will check and replace new one to them. please do not worry about that."
And for the do-it-yourself fanatic, if you have or know some one with some PC and small scale soldering skills, you might be able to do some micro-surgery to replace a key component on the camera circuit board and bring life back to your bricked camera. One user has done this as documented here.

Alternatively, if you don't have the skills to revive the camera chip as shown in the above link, but do have soldering skills, one vendor (internet-shop365) had offered to send a user who bricked his camera the replacement IC (8 pin, surface mount) chip to revive his camera and also allow new firmware to be flashed in. I have attached a picture of the circuit board and component in question to show it's size and location. This solution may not be available to any one else or from other vendors, nor do I know what the cost might be for the replacement IC. I'm providing this information on a FYI basis only.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Feb 18, 2012 at 01:52 PM. Reason: added an impact damage successful recovery method
Old Dec 30, 2010, 12:52 AM
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Date line for new version

Thanks Tom for this new thread.
My camera was purchased Dec 9 and shipped the same day. I have 3 more incoming shipped Dec 19. The vendor eletoponline365 has not been able to confirm which of these if any are older versions. He/they sent me the time off file knowing the 2nd order was not yet delivered. The latest email 12/29 had this and another copy of the time off file
" dear friend,
please do not worried, have any problem, i will help you. i will sent you a new files for the delete the time and date, it's can help you. and if have any problem, let me know."
I guess this implies if one dies he will help?
Do you know the purchase date of clx1's camera
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 12:55 AM
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 01:02 AM
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Has anyone confirmed this camera can be plugged into an external voltage source via the mini-USB connection (like the car 12V outlet plug connector that comes with it) and power the camera without depleting the internal battery? I assume that is the case, but I wonder if that cable has a built-in voltage regulator to drop the voltage down to 5V like a USB port would have, or whether the camera has internal voltage regulation. It would be good to know this for powering the camera from an external source in a plane, like a 3S lipo.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Monell View Post
Thanks Tom for this new thread.
My camera was purchased Dec 9 and shipped the same day. I have 3 more incoming shipped Dec 19. The vendor eletoponline365 has not been able to confirm which of these if any are older versions. He/they sent me the time off file knowing the 2nd order was not yet delivered. The latest email 12/29 had this and another copy of the time off file
" dear friend,
please do not worried, have any problem, i will help you. i will sent you a new files for the delete the time and date, it's can help you. and if have any problem, let me know."
I guess this implies if one dies he will help?
Do you know the purchase date of clx1's camera
I do not know the purchase date of clx1's camera... maybe he will chime in here. But I do know that his vendor, internet-shop365 (aka eletoponline365) is sending him a new camera since he bricked his using the firmware flashing info that the vendor released without any warnings.

I would think (hope) that vendors who released the date on/off flashing firmware would do this, especially if they knew in advance that the early camera version would brick if people tried the flash procedure. Or for that matter, even if they found this out after the fact!
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
...
Also, I just viewed your AV... your camera does not show the same dark corners and color hunting in that aerial video like it did in the ground videos. I haven't figured out what might be going on, but I got mine mainly for AV, so I'm glad it 's better in the air if that proves to always be the case.
Yabba, in regards to my quoted comment, I just had a thought as I was watching one more time your ground video in the other forum where I commented on the "changing color" of the field stripes . You mentioned you were using your "clothespin camera" so I'm wondering if you had the HD cam clipped UNDER the bill of a baseball cap, or something like that? That could explain why the upper corners of your video were considerably darker than the bottom corners, and why the AV you just posted did not show this!! Am I right!
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 03:16 AM
Me a long time ago
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 03:38 AM
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Me too.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 04:46 AM
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I hope you find this thread useful and informative, or at least enjoyable.
Absolutely! Thanks Tom!

Mine has still not arrived and was paid for 8th Dec. I guess its just a waiting game thanks to the Christmas post and heavy snow

Simon
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
Has anyone confirmed this camera can be plugged into an external voltage source via the mini-USB connection (like the car 12V outlet plug connector that comes with it) and power the camera without depleting the internal battery? I assume that is the case, but I wonder if that cable has a built-in voltage regulator to drop the voltage down to 5V like a USB port would have, or whether the camera has internal voltage regulation. It would be good to know this for powering the camera from an external source in a plane, like a 3S lipo.
Computer USB ports Deliver 5v at (1000mA (1A) MAX - some portables fused at 1/2A (500mA))most unpowered external hubs only provide 500mA. So you would have to buy one of those cheap car lighter socket -> USB power adapter - they should work fine from 3S lipo, but don't plugs 3Slipo into camera direct through its USB port - you stand a very good chance of letting the smoke out of both camera and lipo.
Mike
Hummm re-reading I need to clarify my bit.
1). A car 12v outlet plug with USB socket on it will have a 5v (probably 1A) V regulator in it. (well 99% chance - there are always GotChya's waiting to humble X-spurts like me).
2). Do Not connect 3s Lipo directly to the USB input of the camera.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
OK... you tried to do the date stamp removal with a "first generation" camera in spite of the warnings, and turned your camera in a Zombie! Are you doomed forever? Well maybe not!

If you have or know some one with some small scale soldering skills, you might be able to do some micro-surgery to replace a key component on the camera circuit board and bring life back to your bricked camera. One vendor (internet-shop365) had offered to send a user who bricked his camera a replacement IC (6 pin, surface mount) chip to revive his camera and also allow new date removal firmware to be flashed in (I think). I have attached a picture of the circuit board and component in question to show it's size and location.

The person who bricked his had purchased his camera from this vendor, who had given the files and directions for their use. So this solution may not be available to any one else, nor do I know what the cost might be for the replacement IC. I'm providing this information on a FYI basis only.

If it were me and I could get the chip at a reasonable price compared to the initial cost of the camera, I'd give it a try with a very sharp tipped, low wattage soldering iron! I love challenges!
er er I count 8 pins on the thing pointed to
Mike
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 06:09 AM
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Car charger

My cigarette lighter charger states on the label
12-24 VDC input and 5VDC 1.5a output.
I haven't tried any tests with it yet as to whether the camera will only charge or record as well.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:14 AM
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Replacing flash chip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
OK... you tried to do the date stamp removal with a "first generation" camera in spite of the warnings, and turned your camera in a Zombie! Are you doomed forever? Well maybe not!
.....
.....
If it were me and I could get the chip at a reasonable price compared to the initial cost of the camera, I'd give it a try with a very sharp tipped, low wattage soldering iron! I love challenges!
I don't know what your soldering skills are Tom, but I would definitely NOT advise anybody without good soldering skills to try this. An SMD capable soldering iron is a MUST. Soldering the 8-Pin (not 6-Pin) flash chip is dead easy in comparison to desoldering it. If your iron is too hot and/or you apply heat too long, you will lift the track - guaranteed! Then you have a real problem...
The only possible approach for beginners, IMHO, is to cut the original leads with very thin cutters and then QUICKLY desolder the remains of each cut lead one by one. But I still don't believe a beginner can do the job - SMD is just too tiny.

Another very good option would be to use special low melting point solder to desolder the chip (see chipquick.com or similar). This must be completely removed before soldering the new chip with normal, fine solder. But again, I don't believe a beginner could manage this. In any case, I advise testing your skills on an old mobile phone, for example, beforehand.

If a beginner should attempt this, despite all warnings, remember to position the new chip the right way round (Pin1 - the one with the small dot - must be aligned where Pin1 should be). Failure to do so will almost certainly destroy both the camera and the chip.

From the picture, the location of the flash chip is excellent. There are no components near the pins which could hamper the iron.

Could someone identify this SPI Flash chip? Is it 1MB or 2MB (8Mbit/16Mbit), type, manufacturer?

And, if somebody succeeds in removing the chip undamaged or has received a replacement chip and has access to an SPI programmer, it would be great if he could post the memory dump from the good (unbricked) memory chip.

I recently bought a few virgin SPI chips for $3 to $4.5 each on eBay, postage included. I find this expensive, but I had difficulty in finding the correct type and size. Last summer I bought two replacement chips for my #3 and paid $8 which is almost the price of a new #3 but much cheaper than the current HD price - AND, my chips were virgin.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:26 AM
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:49 AM
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Watching, but not on board yet.

Tony
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 09:36 AM
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Monell View Post
My cigarette lighter charger states on the label
12-24 VDC input and 5VDC 1.5a output.
I haven't tried any tests with it yet as to whether the camera will only charge or record as well.
I haven't tried anything other then just plugging it into my 12v power outlet on my pick-up and videoing my drive home from the soccer fields (yawn) but it "seems" to only allow you to video, not charge. I'm probably wrong about this but I could not get the red charging light to come on when hooked up to the cigarette lighter adapter that was included.

It may be charging at the same time as it is taking video, I dunno. I just know that when I would plug it in there would be no light (vs computer usb = red light) and when I held the button it would only go to yellow (computer usb, plug in = red light, press button = red light changes to yellow)

I thought it was advertised as a charger/power adapter. Makes me wonder if my adapter might be defective. It;ll be interesting to hear others experiences with the adapter.

Yabba
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
Yabba, in regards to my quoted comment, I just had a thought as I was watching one more time your ground video in the other forum where I commented on the "changing color" of the field stripes . You mentioned you were using your "clothespin camera" so I'm wondering if you had the HD cam clipped UNDER the bill of a baseball cap, or something like that? That could explain why the upper corners of your video were considerably darker than the bottom corners, and why the AV you just posted did not show this!! Am I right!
You're a little right . My world famous clothespin camera mount actually clips to the side of my eyeglasses (the earpiece actually although I don't want to give away too many industrial secrets) and so it is not actually under the bill of my b'ball hat BUT, it IS shaded by the bill sometimes and especially when I'm looking to my left (the NORTHEAST and NORTH tahdah). We fly at that field looking to the east so anything biased to the left of the camera view may be catching a little shaded effect from the bill of the hat. Genius !

Yabba
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 01:06 PM
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Well I'm confused, Tom. If you're referring to Yabba's video posted in #9 of this thread, I see a good bit of vignetting in it. I guess I missed the other video with the white and yellow stripes, but this current AV is definitely darker around the edges than in the center, at least to my eye.

I wonder if there's an anti-vignetting filter, or a vignetting filter that could be configured as such, in vdub.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 01:11 PM
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Vignette

Well if it's Yabba's hat, I'll eat mine! (where's the Tabasco...). The problem is Alex's video has some too. We need to see more videos, and then we'll know for sure

I looked in Ulead to see if there is any way to make a variable density mask, vignettes are sometimes used for weddings or glamor shoots, but I ran out of time. It looks complicated because sometimes it's not so bad ie variable.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 01:17 PM
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I just wanted to add for those contemplating replacing that 8-pin chip, first, don't even think about it.

But if you do give it a try, I would like to second the suggestion of clipping the leads near the chip and desoldering them individually. But you might find something called desoldering braid useful in doing the desoldering, and in cleaning the old solder off the pads. Just put the braid on the pad, and the iron tip on the braid, and the braid should soak up the melted solder.

Then, with everything cleaned up, I suggest you carefully superglue the belly of the replacement chip to the board, with the leads resting right on the pads. It will be hard enough to do the soldering without the chip moving around on you.

And finally, or firstly, since there is no real power switch on these things, it probably would be a good idea to desolder one battery lead before starting this repair, just so there won't be live power anywhere.

The big risk in doing the soldering is creating a solder bridge between two adjacent pins. with components this small, it's really easy to do that. So, as I said up front, don't even think about doing this. But good luck if you do.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sgbfly View Post
Absolutely! Thanks Tom!

Mine has still not arrived and was paid for 8th Dec. I guess its just a waiting game thanks to the Christmas post and heavy snow

Simon
I bought in day 06-12-2010 Mini HD DV Car Camera from internet-shop365 on eBay.
Payment 06-12-2010 by PayPal . Shipping for me 07-12-2010.
Package reached to me really today. Weather conditions in this helped

Mirek
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 02:33 PM
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Car Charger

I dont think there is a problem with car charger as mine did not show it charging (red light) when I plugged it in either...heres a qwick un-edited vid with no time stamp...raining and a bit foggy here so video isnt the best...If anyone wants to compare notes heres my HD page Also the driver CD isnt included with cam so you will need to ask for it...
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 02:38 PM
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My order for the HD keychain camera from eletoponling365 has arrived at my local post office. It should be delivered tomorrow. I ordered it on December 19, 2010. Unknowingly, he also sold me the the two V3's I bought earlier this year.

Bill
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 03:56 PM
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Mine arrived today to my surprise. I plugged it in and captured some snapshots from Corel Video Studio Pro X3. The camera is charging but it is getting dark outside. I may try outdoors with some halogen lights. Meanwhile, here are some snapshots. See below:
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captn Don View Post
Hope the next step is FOB with a CCD sensor. Captn Don
That will never happen. The reason thay can make these cams this good and cheap is because it is CMOS. CMOS takes lots less energy and will run alot longer on the same sized battery. Thats why home video cams are so small now. If they made this into a CCD cam you would only get run times of a few minutes per charge because the CCD takes so much more power. CMOS made this possible. You can't hardly find a home video camera anymore that is CCD....especially in HD format.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 04:27 PM
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Here are the instructions that came with HD keychain camera.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 04:57 PM
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1st HD key cam video

Here is a short HD keycam video I just loaded to YOUTUBE. It's in HD format for Youtube. This is a worse case of video making -- dark, halogen lamps even lens flares. Enjoy. Good audio capture.

1st HD #11 key cam video.MOV (0 min 30 sec)
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 05:01 PM
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The camera still mode doesn't take the place of my Canon EOS but seems to do fairly well in bright sunlight..

Yabba
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
Here is a short HD keycam video I just loaded to YOUTUBE. It's in HD format for Youtube. This is a worse case of video making -- dark, halogen lamps even lens flares. Enjoy. Good audio capture.
Looks like a keeper Prof. Be interesting tomorrow at the crack of dawn

Re a comment on the other thread, I thought my camera was pretty well focused compared to my earlier #3's. I may have to send it to you for a focus adjustment

Yabba
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by yabbadaba2 View Post
Looks like a keeper Prof. Be interesting tomorrow at the crack of dawn

Re a comment on the other thread, I thought my camera was pretty well focused compared to my earlier #3's. I may have to send it to you for a focus adjustment

Yabba

Yabba,

Yes, it does well in low light. It's amazing the quality you get from such a small, inexpensive device.

You can adjust the focus yourself. It's easy. Your shot of the fence (2nd shot) shows where the camera is focused.

Bill
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 05:51 PM
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Vignetting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
Yabba, in regards to my quoted comment, I just had a thought as I was watching one more time your ground video in the other forum where I commented on the "changing color" of the field stripes . You mentioned you were using your "clothespin camera" so I'm wondering if you had the HD cam clipped UNDER the bill of a baseball cap, or something like that? That could explain why the upper corners of your video were considerably darker than the bottom corners, and why the AV you just posted did not show this!! Am I right!
Tom,

You made a good start on this thread - congratulations - well done!

There has been some discussions about vignetting on this camera, and I think my videos are the ones suffering the most, perhaps because of low light and also snow scenes (not much color).

I thought maybe it came from the narrow lens opening in the plastic cover, so I tried widening (flare?) the opening a little some days ago. I am uploading some clips, shot before and after the "operation" - please note the dates (luckily we have a time stamp ) - 2010/12/22 and 2010/12/29.

I made the clips with AVIDemux (copy function), it became a bit messy going back and forth between dates, sorry about that. It's getting late and there is a long day tomorrow.. Anyway, my first impression is: It did not help to flare the lens opening, don't bother.

/Jan

Test 4 vignetting (5 min 43 sec)
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 06:05 PM
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delete
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 06:12 PM
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Does anyone know if the web cam drivers work with win7 x64?
How about other needed files for deleting date and other settings?
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jazz53 View Post
Does anyone know if the web cam drivers work with win7 x64?
How about other needed files for deleting date and other settings?
It will play with W7 64.

Go up a few posts, Tom Frank has step by step for deleting the date and other settings. There are cautions so you do not brick the camera.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by empeabee View Post
Computer USB ports Deliver 5v at (1000mA (1A) MAX - some portables fused at 1/2A (500mA))most unpowered external hubs only provide 500mA. So you would have to buy one of those cheap car lighter socket -> USB power adapter - they should work fine from 3S lipo, but don't plugs 3Slipo into camera direct through its USB port - you stand a very good chance of letting the smoke out of both camera and lipo.
Mike
Hummm re-reading I need to clarify my bit.
1). A car 12v outlet plug with USB socket on it will have a 5v (probably 1A) V regulator in it. (well 99% chance - there are always GotChya's waiting to humble X-spurts like me).
2). Do Not connect 3s Lipo directly to the USB input of the camera.
Yes, understood. The camera is supposed to come with it's own car charger cable. Since I don't have mine yet, I was not able to measure the voltage on the pins, nor to check if a different cable will work.

I found with my JAZZ HDV178 camera that it will NOT work with any generic wall wart USB charge cord. It will ONLY work with the one that came with the camera, which suggests it must be communicating with the camera via the normally unsed data signal lines in the USB plug on the dedicated charger. I thought something like this could possibly be the case with this camera and worth checking out.

If they put the voltage regulator chip in the camera off the USB plug instead in the car charge cord, it could still function on 5V or 12V input. If I had the cord to check the pin voltage, this would become more clear. I certainly would not apply 12V to the camera without more investigation of what the car charge cord is doing.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:04 PM
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er er I count 8 pins on the thing pointed to
Mike
I sit corrected! That's what I get for going from memory after a quick glance two days ago!
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by A Monell View Post
My cigarette lighter charger states on the label
12-24 VDC input and 5VDC 1.5a output.
I haven't tried any tests with it yet as to whether the camera will only charge or record as well.
If you are referring to the charge cord that comes with the camera, and not a "generic" one, then this clears up the charge voltage requirement for an external power source, assuming nothing fancy is going on with the data lines like my Jazz HDV 178 camera.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:12 PM
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Tom,

The charge cord that connects to power point in a car has 5V 1.5 AMP output.

Edit, problem solved.

Bill
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yabbadaba2 View Post
I haven't tried anything other then just plugging it into my 12v power outlet on my pick-up and videoing my drive home from the soccer fields (yawn) but it "seems" to only allow you to video, not charge. I'm probably wrong about this but I could not get the red charging light to come on when hooked up to the cigarette lighter adapter that was included.

It may be charging at the same time as it is taking video, I dunno. I just know that when I would plug it in there would be no light (vs computer usb = red light) and when I held the button it would only go to yellow (computer usb, plug in = red light, press button = red light changes to yellow)

I thought it was advertised as a charger/power adapter. Makes me wonder if my adapter might be defective. It;ll be interesting to hear others experiences with the adapter.

Yabba
That's interesting. If it can't charge via the car plug, that would be a big surprise. Is it possible the battery was fully charged when you tried this, and since the red LED goes out on this camera when it is fully charged, then it never came on since no charge was needed?

Some more testing is needed by running down the battery a bit, plugging into the PC USB port to see if the red LED comes on, then move to the car charge plug and see if the red LED comes back on. I'd hope it would so you can recharge at the field if needed. Assuming it does, turn the camera on while the red LED is on and start recording to see what the LEDs do.

Wish I had my camera so I could try this myself... I'm really curious now.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:23 PM
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My microcard is formatted as a FAT32. Should I re format it NTFS or leave it?
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:45 PM
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Tom / Yabba,

Nevermind on my Timeset problem. I modified the sample that was provided and simply saved it and W7 added (1) suffix. It will never work that way. Geeze, I feel like maroon.

Bottom line is I now have the time and date revised.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
My microcard is formatted as a FAT32. Should I re format it NTFS or leave it?
I've been leaving mine FAT32 and default allocation size.

Let me check the other thread, someone posted the file to change the datestamp. You just change to the current day and time. Save it to the DRIVE (mine sez "removable disk (F ), I change the date and time. Save it as a .txt file to the drive. Maybe not be technically accurate but it works for me.

Lemme go find that file on the other thread. BRB.

Bob
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:47 PM
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Tom / Yabba,

Nevermind on my Timeset problem. I modified the sample that was provided and simply saved it and W7 added (1) suffix. It will never work that way. Geeze, I feel like maroon.

Bottom line is I now have the time and date revised.

Bill
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isoprop View Post
I don't know what your soldering skills are Tom, but I would definitely NOT advise anybody without good soldering skills to try this. An SMD capable soldering iron is a MUST. Soldering the 8-Pin (not 6-Pin) flash chip is dead easy in comparison to desoldering it. If your iron is too hot and/or you apply heat too long, you will lift the track - guaranteed! Then you have a real problem...
The only possible approach for beginners, IMHO, is to cut the original leads with very thin cutters and then QUICKLY desolder the remains of each cut lead one by one. But I still don't believe a beginner can do the job - SMD is just too tiny.

Another very good option would be to use special low melting point solder to desolder the chip (see chipquick.com or similar). This must be completely removed before soldering the new chip with normal, fine solder. But again, I don't believe a beginner could manage this. In any case, I advise testing your skills on an old mobile phone, for example, beforehand.

If a beginner should attempt this, despite all warnings, remember to position the new chip the right way round (Pin1 - the one with the small dot - must be aligned where Pin1 should be). Failure to do so will almost certainly destroy both the camera and the chip.

From the picture, the location of the flash chip is excellent. There are no components near the pins which could hamper the iron.

Could someone identify this SPI Flash chip? Is it 1MB or 2MB (8Mbit/16Mbit), type, manufacturer?

And, if somebody succeeds in removing the chip undamaged or has received a replacement chip and has access to an SPI programmer, it would be great if he could post the memory dump from the good (unbricked) memory chip.

I recently bought a few virgin SPI chips for $3 to $4.5 each on eBay, postage included. I find this expensive, but I had difficulty in finding the correct type and size. Last summer I bought two replacement chips for my #3 and paid $8 which is almost the price of a new #3 but much cheaper than the current HD price - AND, my chips were virgin.
I've done a considerable amount of soldering on circuit board components, but most were not SMDs. However, I have successfully replaced surface mount FETs on an ESC as you suggested, by first cutting all the pins and removing the chip, then one-by-one removing each individual pin with a quick touch of a sharp point low wattage soldering iron. Then replacing by first carefully levelling the desoldered pads with a touch of the iron, tinning the new chip pins, carefully aligning the chip to solder down one corner pin, then an opposite corner pin to hold it in alignment. Then a quick touch of the remaining pins with the iron tip while pushing down on the pin with a small screw driver to assure good contact and sink some heat. This worked for me, and the picture shows good access to the pins as you said, so it looked like I could repeat the process. Everyone else would need to decide for themselves, and I did suggest some micro soldering skill would be adviseable.

Also, looking at the subject where I brought up this topic, the premise was that the camera was already bricked, and this was a last resort to possibly revive it. So if the chip replacement goes terribly awry... nothing is lost other than the cost of the replacement IC and some time.

The larger of the two firmware patches for the date on/off toggle is 1.06 MB in size. So if all this gets dumped into the replacement IC, then it's larger than 1 MB. It was my understanding that the replacement chip that would be sent would already be pre-programmed to allow the new date swap firmware patch to be made. I have no clue if the entire firmware is being replaced with the Date patch, or just a portion of it.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
Tom / Yabba,

Nevermind on my Timeset problem. I modified the sample that was provided and simply saved it and W7 added (1) suffix. It will never work that way. Geeze, I feel like maroon.

Bottom line is I now have the time and date revised.

Bill
Haha, glad you got it figured out but for those still trying to get it here is the post.

It was jhl that posted it on the keyfob thread. Thanks jan

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=6820

Yabba

PS, probably use a 24 hour format since the sample file doesn't show AM or PM.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayback View Post
Well I'm confused, Tom. If you're referring to Yabba's video posted in #9 of this thread, I see a good bit of vignetting in it. I guess I missed the other video with the white and yellow stripes, but this current AV is definitely darker around the edges than in the center, at least to my eye.

I wonder if there's an anti-vignetting filter, or a vignetting filter that could be configured as such, in vdub.
I certainly wasn't suggesting there is no vignetting. But in this AV clip it seems to be less, and with less white balance struggle than in this earlier post with the field lines.

The issue to me is not just vignetting (light intensity drop off), but also the color adjustment that comes with it. This looks to make the vignetting a LOT more obvious, especially in the upper corners with a clear blue sky in the scene. And it comes and goes as the scenes change with some ground in the bottom portion. It's just something we have to live with for now. Since it constantly changes with the scenes, I don't know of any filter adjustment during editing that can fix this.

Some sample videos show very little of this, so it's yet to be determined if this is more prevalent in some of these cameras than others.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
Here is a short HD keycam video I just loaded to YOUTUBE. It's in HD format for Youtube. This is a worse case of video making -- dark, halogen lamps even lens flares. Enjoy. Good audio capture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bV9U...ist=QL&index=1
Considering the lighting, I'd say that is pretty good! Not much "noise" in the low light areas!
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz53 View Post
Does anyone know if the web cam drivers work with win7 x64?
How about other needed files for deleting date and other settings?
Always try post #3 in this thread first if you have a question. Chances are it has already been asked and answered.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Dec 30, 2010 at 08:57 PM.
Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
My microcard is formatted as a FAT32. Should I re format it NTFS or leave it?
Leave it! Better yet, format it with the SD_formatter program and it won't confuse the issue with that option
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:31 PM
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Hotspot filter for Vdub

This might work?

http://neuron2.net/hotspot/hotspot.html

Looks similar to what I was trying in Ulead
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:36 PM
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FAQs - Post #2 in this thread may have the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yabbadaba2 View Post
Haha, glad you got it figured out but for those still trying to get it here is the post.

It was jhl that posted it on the keyfob thread. Thanks jan

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=6820

Yabba

PS, probably use a 24 hour format since the sample file doesn't show AM or PM.
It's also linked in Post #3 of this thread, which I have reserved for FAQs like this. My plan is to keep adding links to answers for questions we see over and over because people jump into a thread and don't know the question has been asked and answered dozens of times, making the thread longer and more tedious than it needs to be.

I'll add the 24 hour format comment... I missed that.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Dec 30, 2010 at 08:56 PM.
Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
I do not know the purchase date of clx1's camera... maybe he will chime in here. But I do know that his vendor, internet-shop365 (aka eletoponline365) is sending him a new camera since he bricked his using the firmware flashing info that the vendor released without any warnings.
Hello all,

I bought my now-bricked camera on Dec 12 and it was promptly shipped. It arrived on Dec 20 and as far as I can see today, it's already left US soil on its way home to be de-bricked....

clx1
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by yabbadaba2 View Post
Haha, glad you got it figured out but for those still trying to get it here is the post.

It was jhl that posted it on the keyfob thread. Thanks jan

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=6820

Yabba

PS, probably use a 24 hour format since the sample file doesn't show AM or PM.
Yabba,

Sometimes you are just blind to the obvious and I just proved it. I used the 24 hour clock. It's fine. At least it's not stamped 1-18-2009.

Bill
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
Considering the lighting, I'd say that is pretty good! Not much "noise" in the low light areas!
Tom,

I am very pleased with this camera. Surprisingly and I can safely say amazingly good for the money. The night shot with halogen and sodium vapor lighting is a torture test.

Bill
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Last edited by Prof100; Dec 30, 2010 at 11:13 PM.
Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victapilot View Post
Hotspot filter for Vdub

This might work?

http://neuron2.net/hotspot/hotspot.html

Looks similar to what I was trying in Ulead
That's interesting... hadn't looked at that one before. It will be interesting to see if it can improve this camera's video. It's a bit tedious to set up initially with needing to create a filter specific to each camera for best results, but might be worth the effort.

As an aside, Vdub cannot directly import the .MOV videos, and the add-on module for Quitcktime files did not work on W7 (64) bit machine, or maybe I gave up too early trying to get it to work! I've pretty much come to the conclusion to go to AVI_Demux as a capable replacement for Vdub with the .MOV files. It can import the camera file directly and seems to have all the key functionality most people used Vdub for, including a wide array of filters (maybe not this "hot spot filter, though some work with both programs, I think).

FWIW, if you missed it, I reserved an initial post #4 as a repository for editing issues with this camera's videos.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
As an aside, Vdub cannot directly import the .MOV videos, and the add-on module for Quitcktime files did not work on W7 (64) bit machine, or maybe I gave up too early trying to get it to work! I've pretty much come to the conclusion to go to AVI_Demux as a capable replacement for Vdub with the .MOV files. It can import the camera file directly and seems to have all the key functionality most people used Vdub for, including a wide array of filters (maybe not this "hot spot filter, though some work with both programs, I think).
Tom,

A little OT but...what would be the best settings in AVI_Demux to re-mux a .MOV to preserve the original clip quality and approximate file size? There are so many options outside of "copy" on AVI_Demux on Save that I thought I would ask the Sensei as opposed to trying 'em all one night....

clx1
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
That's interesting... hadn't looked at that one before. It will be interesting to see if it can improve this camera's video. It's a bit tedious to set up initially with needing to create a filter specific to each camera for best results, but might be worth the effort.

As an aside, Vdub cannot directly import the .MOV videos, and the add-on module for Quitcktime files did not work on W7 (64) bit machine, or maybe I gave up too early trying to get it to work! I've pretty much come to the conclusion to go to AVI_Demux as a capable replacement for Vdub with the .MOV files. It can import the camera file directly and seems to have all the key functionality most people used Vdub for, including a wide array of filters (maybe not this "hot spot filter, though some work with both programs, I think).

FWIW, if you missed it, I reserved an initial post #4 as a repository for editing issues with this camera's videos.
I am trying out Video Pad editor. It allows Virtual Dub Plugins as well. Cool program and it's very reasonably priced. I am running Windows 7 Home premium 64 bit.

Bill
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clx1 View Post
Tom,

A little OT but...what would be the best settings in AVI_Demux to re-mux a .MOV to preserve the original clip quality and approximate file size? There are so many options outside of "copy" on AVI_Demux on Save that I thought I would ask the Sensei as opposed to trying 'em all one night....

clx1
This is very on topic for what I eventually want to cover in Post #3. I just need more time to compile the goods!

Are you wanting to repackage into .AVI format, or just clip out portions, or what? If the latter, just clip first then do direct copy to retain original file structure (duh!). For adding ANY filter action, you MUST re-encode. A direct copy into an .AVI file container does not bring over the video portion properly, so to put in .AVI format so Vdub can import it, it must be re-encoded. Use MPEG-4 AVC video codec (a.k.a. H.264). Normal .AVI output can then re-mux the stream properly. The native bit rate of this HD camera is about 7000 kbps, which is quite high for such a camera. But you'd want the final output to be similar to keep the same quality. I've done some trials, but haven't come to any conclusion on which is the best settings to get this. I find the "average bit rate - two pass" method, set for 7000 kbps the easiest way to get there, and probably as good of results as a single pass encoding method. It takes a bit longer with two passes, but the first pass is pretty quick. You can also put it into a different final container, like MP4, this way as well, and it's better suited for this codec and can still be played in the WMP and WMC, and WLMM on my W7 PC.

Does this answer your question?
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finster View Post
...
Also the driver CD isnt included with cam so you will need to ask for it...
The instructions say you don't need a driver for webcam function. What OS is your computer? W7 PC users have said no driver needed like the instructions, but XP could be a different story. Or MAC, even more different!
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
This is very on topic for what I eventually want to cover in Post #3. I just need more time to compile the goods!

Are you wanting to repackage into .AVI format, or just clip out portions, or what? If the latter, just clip first then do direct copy to retain original file structure (duh!). For adding ANY filter action, you MUST re-encode. A direct copy into an .AVI file container does not bring over the video portion properly, so to put in .AVI format so Vdub can import it, it must be re-encoded. Use MPEG-4 AVC video codec (a.k.a. H.264). Normal .AVI output can then re-mux the stream properly. The native bit rate of this HD camera is about 7000 kbps, which is quite high for such a camera. But you'd want the final output to be similar to keep the same quality. I've done some trials, but haven't come to any conclusion on which is the best settings to get this. I find the "average bit rate - two pass" method, set for 7000 kbps the easiest way to get there, and probably as good of results as a single pass encoding method. It takes a bit longer with two passes, but the first pass is pretty quick. You can also put it into a different final container, like MP4, this way as well, and it's better suited for this codec and can still be played in the WMP and WMC, and WLMM on my W7 PC.

Does this answer your question?
Tom,

Well, you sort of answered it. The container does not matter to me, but the quality does, simply because the players I have can play AVI or MP4 or MOV. The most important is to find the best remux parameters after chopping or filtering the MOV import. So I will have some patience and await your findings...as I am currently a little indiposed.

Thanks,
clx1
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
The instructions say you don't need a driver for webcam function. What OS is your computer? W7 PC users have said no driver needed like the instructions, but XP could be a different story. Or MAC, even more different!
Rite tom...No drivers needed for cam...eletoponline365 sent me the CD...he calls it a driver CD...its just a CD to add/remove date and time...
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 08:54 AM
Just thumbing through...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
That's interesting... hadn't looked at that one before. It will be interesting to see if it can improve this camera's video. It's a bit tedious to set up initially with needing to create a filter specific to each camera for best results, but might be worth the effort.
Agree, might be useful as a last resort. I would try making the filter by taking pics of a white wall or sheet. Anyhow, if vignetting is significant for any cam, the supplier should be made aware (if they are not already monitoring our posts...)

Yabba - your pictures are fine, you can see where the focus is best on the chain link fence. It would be interesting to see exposure and aperture - I use EXIF viewer (free) for that.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 08:58 AM
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finster, When did you purchase your camera? I noticed that you have successfully removed the timestamp.
clx1 bought his Dec. 12 and it would not accept the firmware update.


Will this thread breakup into pages of posts after so many posts or is there a setting that I am missing? As of now there are 79 posts and they are all on the same page.
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Last edited by lostheli; Dec 31, 2010 at 09:17 AM.
Old Dec 31, 2010, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by finster View Post
Rite tom...No drivers needed for cam...eletoponline365 sent me the CD...he calls it a driver CD...its just a CD to add/remove date and time...
Finster,

Did you use the "driver CD" to remove the date and time? I adjusted my time but would prefer to remove it. It's pretty darn big in the lower right hand corner. Of course, I didn't get the CD with my order. Is the file the same as what Tom Frank attached to delete the time stamp?

Bill
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by lostheli View Post
Will this thread breakup into pages of posts after so many posts or is there a setting that I am missing? As of now there are 79 posts and they are all on the same page.
nevermind, it is now split up into pages.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by lostheli View Post
nevermind, it is now split up into pages.
It all depends on your personal settings. Yours must be default set. Mine is still on the first page.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finster View Post
Rite tom...No drivers needed for cam...eletoponline365 sent me the CD...he calls it a driver CD...its just a CD to add/remove date and time...
Now this is interesting....

I also ask what Prof100 asked,
Quote:
Did you use the "driver CD" to remove the date and time? I adjusted my time but would prefer to remove it. It's pretty darn big in the lower right hand corner. Of course, I didn't get the CD with my order. Is the file the same as what Tom Frank attached to delete the time stamp?
Is it different then Tom's file? If so, maybe you could post it (or upload it to Sendspace or similar) and we could compare to see if this file might work for some of the early 808HDs.

Yabba
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victapilot View Post
<<snip>>
Yabba - your pictures are fine, you can see where the focus is best on the chain link fence. It would be interesting to see exposure and aperture - I use EXIF viewer (free) for that.
Thanks Victa

I'll d/l that and give it a try. Does it work for images and video or just one or the other? And which did you mean when you said my pictures are fine?

Yabba
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by yabbadaba2 View Post
Now this is interesting....

I also ask what Prof100 asked,

Is it different then Tom's file? If so, maybe you could post it (or upload it to Sendspace or similar) and we could compare to see if this file might work for some of the early 808HDs.

Yabba
Yes, it would be nice. Mine was ordered on the 19th of December but I am not going to chance bricking the camera.

Bill
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 10:48 AM
Just thumbing through...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yabbadaba2 View Post
Thanks Victa

I'll d/l that and give it a try. Does it work for images and video or just one or the other? And which did you mean when you said my pictures are fine?

Yabba
They are all good! The color looks realistic, the chain fence in the second one (0008) shows focus about 10ft out.

The EXIF view is for digital cam pics, don't know if the HD808 codes the data, but most do, at least exposure and aperture. The pics are downgraded by RCG, so there's nothing there
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Last edited by victapilot; Dec 31, 2010 at 11:04 AM.
Old Dec 31, 2010, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
It all depends on your personal settings. Yours must be default set. Mine is still on the first page.
Mine also has all the posts on one page. Also, when I go to the link, it doesn't go to the top of the page. It goes to the middle and I have to scroll up to get to the 'view first unread' link. Is there a way to change these two things? How did lostheli get his to split into multiple pages?
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victapilot View Post
They are all good! The color looks realistic, the chain fence in the second one (0008) shows focus about 10ft out.

The EXIF view is for digital cam pics, don't know if the HD808 codes the data, but most do, at least exposure and aperture. The pics are downgraded by RCG, so there's nothing there
The same information can be displayed with Windows by right clicking on the picture icon, opening the "properties" window, then selecting the "Details" tab. No separate program needed. Move the scroll bar on the right hand side down about 1/2 way to see these details. I attached a screen clip of a pic from this camera sent to me by one of the vendors.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 11:47 AM
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Yabba,

Here is the picture cropped that you took earlier with the focused area highlighted.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrobbie View Post
Mine also has all the posts on one page. Also, when I go to the link, it doesn't go to the top of the page. It goes to the middle and I have to scroll up to get to the 'view first unread' link. Is there a way to change these two things? How did lostheli get his to split into multiple pages?
I made the adjustments a year ago or more. I like them all on one page.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrobbie View Post
Mine also has all the posts on one page. Also, when I go to the link, it doesn't go to the top of the page. It goes to the middle and I have to scroll up to get to the 'view first unread' link. Is there a way to change these two things? How did lostheli get his to split into multiple pages?
This is what I did:
Go to the top left of the page and select "Aerial Photography", then look for "The Real HD Key Cam Thread" (hopefully it is on the first page, if not look on page 2), it should show page 1,2,3,4,5-LastPage, select it and everything should be fine. Hope this helps.

/Jan
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by zrobbie View Post
Mine also has all the posts on one page. Also, when I go to the link, it doesn't go to the top of the page. It goes to the middle and I have to scroll up to get to the 'view first unread' link. Is there a way to change these two things? How did lostheli get his to split into multiple pages?
I took a screen shot of what you can edit in MyRCgroups. You set the number of posts per page and order of display.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 03:03 PM
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Add/Remove Date and Time

Eletoponline emailed the .bin files to me and also sent me the CD (which I havent recieved yet)...I compared it to toms files in hex editor and they are both the same...Its possible clx1 may have missed a step during install...As far as I know there are no other versions of this cam...I zipped the files along with readme.txt how I did it on my website...I ordered mine like the 15th-17th and recieved it 24th...

This thread in page view: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1362692
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finster View Post
Eletoponline emailed the .bin files to me and also sent me the CD (which I havent recieved yet)...I compared it to toms files in hex editor and they are both the same...Its possible clx1 may have missed a step during install...As far as I know there are no other versions of this cam...I zipped the files along with readme.txt how I did it on my website...I ordered mine like the 15th-17th and recieved it 24th...
Well, it is entirely possible that I fudged something as the instructions were sketchy at best especially at that time.

Tom and I exchanged emails offline because we were concerned that information that had not been thoroughly clarified, verified and tested can easily cause damage to a whole lot of very eager buyers of this gem. I can tell you that before I did anything, the flashing instructions from China I received had to be edited, clarified and rewritten several times back and forth mostly because of English usage and even then, it changed 3 times afterwards.

So I feel a little like a kid playing with a $40 toy that can break and I did not cry when I broke it. The seller was very gracious about their support with files and a replacement for my bricked cam so it was all in the spirit of fun. They mentioned to me that there were earlier versions of the camera but did not say how to tell them apart - just if you bricked it, it must be the earlier version.

And Tom did a great job starting this thread and trying to moderate and modulate potentially harmful information. I hope very soon, we will all be able to switch back and forth with a "Y" or "N" at the end of the date text and maintain the KISS tradition.

clx1
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 04:45 PM
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Prof100's Avatar
Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finster View Post
Eletoponline emailed the .bin files to me and also sent me the CD (which I havent recieved yet)...I compared it to toms files in hex editor and they are both the same...Its possible clx1 may have missed a step during install...As far as I know there are no other versions of this cam...I zipped the files along with readme.txt how I did it on my website...I ordered mine like the 15th-17th and recieved it 24th...

This thread in page view: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1362692
Finster,

I went to your website and downloaded the bin files and readme directions. I printed out the readme and followed them. I went through steps 1-4 and in Step 5 I was looking for FW96630A.bin file to delete it. The only file is the no time bin file you provided. The camera still has the date stamp. It didn't brick. I just don't know what you mean by deleting that file. The only bin file is the one you provided.

Bill
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Last edited by Prof100; Dec 31, 2010 at 05:16 PM.
Old Dec 31, 2010, 05:22 PM
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Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
Finster,

I went to your website and downloaded the bin files and readme directions. I printed out the readme and followed them. I was looking for FW96630A.bin file to delete it. The only file is the no time bin. The camera still has the date stamp. It didn't brick. I just don't know what you mean by deleting that file. The only bin file is the one you provided.

Bill
I looked at the files you mentioned, and they have been renamed! The files sent to me by both of the sources I list in post #2 were named exactly the same: FW96630A. But they are different files with different file lengths... one turns the date off (the smaller) and the other turns it on (the larger). So the instructions for use are correct, but only if the files are named with that same name. Once the firmware is flashed in, the file is left on the card, so you need to remove it. I checked the files you download from the other site and they are exactly the same as the ones I have, except they are renamed.

I'd be interested if the files came named that way from the vendor. I asked the vendors early on if I could add to the filename to identify the "on" and "off" files, and the vendor just said do not change the file names. So, that may be one reason it didn't work. Or maybe it did work, but you used the file for turning on the date, so it didn't change?

I just hope someone doesn't brick a camera in the process.

To the best of my knowledge, my post #12 has all the current information in it for date swapping. If there is more to add, I'll add it (like if the name change can be done without bricking a camera or preventing it from doing anything).

Just examining the firmware files with a hex editor, it appears that the "96630" in the binary file name MAY be the magic bullet in making it work, and the name can be extended to make easier ID of what the file does. But the vendors couldn't confirm if it works or might brick the camera in the process.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 05:23 PM
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Joined Nov 2010
573 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
The only bin file is the one you provided.
The way I understand it, that is the file you are to delete, otherwise it reloads the file every time.

instructions emailed to me from eletoponline365:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The manuel:

1. Please trun on the camera, then connect the camera to a computer with a USB cable and put the bin file to Micro SD card, root directory. ( attention: please do not change the name of the file).
2. Please pull out the camera from the USB cable. Waitting for the camrea Automatically turn off.
3. Please press the “turn on” bottom, waitting for the camera turn on again, then the update is completed.
4. After you update, please delete the firmware from your camera. So that prevent the camera update again and again when you turn on.

please try it , hope you like it, and waitting for your reply.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I just received my camera and will attempt the timestamp removal after it is done charging and a quick operational test.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 05:34 PM
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Prof100's Avatar
Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
16,272 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
I looked at the files you mentioned, and they have been renamed! The files sent to me by both of the sources I list in post #2 were named exactly the same: FW96630A. But they are different files with different file lengths... one turns the date off (the smaller) and the other turns it on (the larger). So the instructions for use are correct, but only if the files are named with that same name. Once the firmware is flashed in, the file is left on the card, so you need to remove it. I checked the files you download from the other site and they are exactly the same as the ones I have, except they are renamed.

I'd be interested if the files came named that way from the vendor. I asked the vendors early on if I could add to the filename to identify the "on" and "off" files, and the vendor just said do not change the file names. So, that may be one reason it didn't work. Or maybe it did work, but you used the file for turning on the date, so it didn't change?

I just hope someone doesn't brick a camera in the process.

To the best of my knowledge, my post #12 has all the current information in it for date swapping. If there is more to add, I'll add it (like if the name change can be done without bricking a camera or preventing it from doing anything).

Just examining the firmware files with a hex editor, it appears that the "96630" in the binary file name MAY be the magic bullet in making it work, and the name can be extended to make easier ID of what the file does. But the vendors couldn't confirm if it works or might brick the camera in the process.
Tom,

Hmmm, since I am using Finster's files I will let him get back on the file name renaming issue. I only know that I still have a working camera with a date stamp. If I undestand it I am to (as part of step 5) delete the file I just installed?

Below is from Finster's file download on his website:

Remove Date/Time Instructions:

Use at own risk!!! Follow steps below.

#1 Turn on camera, plug in USB.

#2 Open the camera folder and place the FW96630A NO TIME.bin file next to the DCIM folder (root of camera)
Important Note: ((Do not rename or modify the .bin files))

#3 Unplug the USB and wait for the light to go off on its own.

#4 Turn on camera and wait for the light to appear (takes few seconds)

#5 Open the camera folder again but this time delete the file FW96630A.bin from the folder. Make sure to delete the file or the cam will keep installing the .bin file each time the cam powers up.

#6 Test your cam to see if Time/Date is gone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To put time back on use the FW96630A HAVE TIME.bin, Follow same steps as above.

2KOOL4U.com
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 05:40 PM
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Prof100's Avatar
Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
16,272 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostheli View Post
The way I understand it, that is the file you are to delete, otherwise it reloads the file every time.

instructions emailed to me from eletoponline365:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The manuel:

1. Please trun on the camera, then connect the camera to a computer with a USB cable and put the bin file to Micro SD card, root directory. ( attention: please do not change the name of the file).
2. Please pull out the camera from the USB cable. Waitting for the camrea Automatically turn off.
3. Please press the “turn on” bottom, waitting for the camera turn on again, then the update is completed.
4. After you update, please delete the firmware from your camera. So that prevent the camera update again and again when you turn on.

please try it , hope you like it, and waitting for your reply.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I just received my camera and will attempt the timestamp removal after it is done charging and a quick operational test.
That is some pretty scarey Chinglish. What does he mean by requiring to "delete the firmware."?
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 05:43 PM
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finster's Avatar
Michigan
Joined Feb 2006
502 Posts
Prof100-

Yes...that is exactly the way it came from vendor...Once you installed the no time.bin restart cam and wait for light to appear...delete the no time.bin file from cam folder and restart cam again...date should be gone...
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