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Old Dec 10, 2011, 06:18 PM
FS One
MSelig's Avatar
United States, IL, Champaign
Joined Sep 2005
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Originally Posted by philfun View Post
Hi,
Is the indoor 3d plane realistic ?
I am looking for a good indoor sim.
Thanks
Realistic -- Yes. I learned how to hover in FS One on the old Eflite Tribute. The first time I flew the airplane in real, I took off and went right into a hover. This flight was the first flight on the airplane in real, the first time I had flown a foamie, and the first time I ever tried to hover in real. I have witnesses! One surprise is that everyone in the Armory where I flew ... only thought I walked around a lot and asked a lot of questions. They did not know that I could hover and neither did I. They asked me how I learned how to do that, and I said "in a simulator." This was before anybody had heard of FS One -- before it was announced in 2006.
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Old Dec 10, 2011, 07:36 PM
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Windsor, Canada
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Lhs

Is FSONE available at local hobby shop in US ?
Thanks
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Old Dec 10, 2011, 07:52 PM
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United States, ME, Stonington
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Realism

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSelig View Post
Realistic -- Yes. I learned how to hover in FS One on the old Eflite Tribute. The first time I flew the airplane in real, I took off and went right into a hover. This flight was the first flight on the airplane in real, the first time I had flown a foamie, and the first time I ever tried to hover in real. I have witnesses! One surprise is that everyone in the Armory where I flew ... only thought I walked around a lot and asked a lot of questions. They did not know that I could hover and neither did I. They asked me how I learned how to do that, and I said "in a simulator." This was before anybody had heard of FS One -- before it was announced in 2006.
That's a great story, and timely too as I just noticed on the Horizon site that the 33% Hangar 9 Edge 540 is still available from Horizon. I thought it had disappeared long ago as so many good airplanes have. It's been my favorite plane in FSOne since I first got V1. I've gotten to be half decent at flying 3D on the sim but have yet to have a R/C model that will 3D anywhere close to as well as the models on the sim do (sure the "pucker" factor, no reset button and $$$, is there for the real models but I think that's not the whole problem!).

Would anyone care to comment in how accurate FSOne's H9 33%Edge 540 is to the real flying model. If I could really have a model that flies that well my frustration of finding an R/C model that flies as well as the sim might be over.

Thanks, diceco
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Old Dec 10, 2011, 08:28 PM
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United States, AZ, Gilbert
Joined May 2007
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I've not flown a real H9 33% Edge but do fly a 104" Slick from 3DHS. The FSOne 540 feels similar in some ways, both are very easy to hover for instance. I can't get the sim 540 to do pop tops like my 104 though. In general I find all sims lacking is some areas for 3D, some feel right for certain things but totally wrong in others. I've not played much with FSOne trying to tweak the planes though, so perhaps I could get them better than out of box, or perhaps the planes really fly that way

My real question would be what planes have you been trying the 3D in real life which you have not liked? I'm a big fan of 3DHS and own many of their planes but there are other great companies out there as well. The first time I flew my 104 my thinking was it was actually easier than a sim. Most sims always felt too easy in hovering to me but perhaps that's because the sim planes were all 33% or bigger and all my stuff was 25% or smaller until the 104

In real life bigger is easier to 3D but as you say pucker factor and $ can make that harder. There are some great EPP foamies out there which make doing 3D for real much easier in that regard, at least hovering and rollers and such. Those small foamies don't do well for blenders, KE spins, pop tops, and things of that nature.
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Old Dec 10, 2011, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by weaser42 View Post
My real question would be what planes have you been trying the 3D in real life which you have not liked?
Good question.... one of the problems I have is spending the $$ for a big airplane. The Fliton mini edge did lots of good things, ke spins, blenders, ke loops but I could never hover it. Harriers were tough with lots of instability. Same goes for the GP mini Edge. My foamies are on the other side of the coin. They hover and harrier and ke well but the moving maneuvers don't work, as you pointed out.

I guess the biggest disappointment for me in most planes I've flown is the instability/wing rock in harriers and parachutes. I try to find videos of the planes I'm interested in on the Net to get an idea of their stability in such maneuvers but unfortunately either the plane is a spec in the video, the pilot is not proficient at performing 3D maneuvers and is just flying around, or the pilot spends the whole time doing rolling circles which tell me NOTHING about the stability of the airframe, only that they've figured out their thumb thing! The 3D planes in FSOne do beautiful stable harriers, nice waterfalls, nice high alpha ke's etc.

I have asked the question earlier in this forum about the relationship of size and 3D-ablity and it is clear I need bigger airframes than what I've got. So.... I'm wondering about the H9 edge because it's reasonably priced for it's class and it flies really well on the sim.

diceco
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Old Dec 10, 2011, 11:08 PM
FS One
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United States, IL, Champaign
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Originally Posted by diceco View Post
Would anyone care to comment in how accurate FSOne's H9 33%Edge 540 is to the real flying model. If I could really have a model that flies that well my frustration of finding an R/C model that flies as well as the sim might be over.

Thanks, diceco
I think we are very close. Here's the 'before' and 'after' w/ the Edge 540 flying, i.e. in real and then in the sim. Even the same flying field!

Edge 540 33% by Hangar 9 (1 min 11 sec)


Edge 540 33% by Hangar 9 in FS One V2 (1 min 11 sec)
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Old Dec 10, 2011, 11:42 PM
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Sim/Real Comparison

WOW.... Impressive Michael! I do see a very little bit of wing rock in the real vid that's not present in the sim but it seems quite manageable. The rest of the prop hanging and flips look just like the real model. Makes me want to order one right up. I'll have to ask my LHS about it next week.

Thanks for the reply, diceco
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Old Dec 10, 2011, 11:52 PM
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United States, AZ, Gilbert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceco View Post
Good question.... one of the problems I have is spending the $$ for a big airplane. The Fliton mini edge did lots of good things, ke spins, blenders, ke loops but I could never hover it. Harriers were tough with lots of instability. Same goes for the GP mini Edge. My foamies are on the other side of the coin. They hover and harrier and ke well but the moving maneuvers don't work, as you pointed out.

I guess the biggest disappointment for me in most planes I've flown is the instability/wing rock in harriers and parachutes. I try to find videos of the planes I'm interested in on the Net to get an idea of their stability in such maneuvers but unfortunately either the plane is a spec in the video, the pilot is not proficient at performing 3D maneuvers and is just flying around, or the pilot spends the whole time doing rolling circles which tell me NOTHING about the stability of the airframe, only that they've figured out their thumb thing! The 3D planes in FSOne do beautiful stable harriers, nice waterfalls, nice high alpha ke's etc.

I have asked the question earlier in this forum about the relationship of size and 3D-ablity and it is clear I need bigger airframes than what I've got. So.... I'm wondering about the H9 edge because it's reasonably priced for it's class and it flies really well on the sim.

diceco
From what they say the Edge with it's straight leading edge design are the best in harrier. From what I saw with my 48" 3DHS Edge today I'd have to agree as I've not flown anything else that small which was as stable in harrier. I can't wait to get my 74" Edge up and running. I think all my 3DHS stuff pretty much will drop with very little wing rock with no power and full elevator. The 104 Slick is outstanding in harrier as well, though my smaller ones are still very good. Prior to getting into 3DHS stuff a few years back I flew mostly LHS stuff, Great planes, Eflight, etc but all small stuff. Since getting into 3DHS that's pretty much all I've bought with the exception of a PA AMR and EF 48" MXS.
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Old Dec 11, 2011, 12:02 AM
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[QUOTE=MSelig;20107729]I think we are very close. Here's the 'before' and 'after' w/ the Edge 540 flying, i.e. in real and then in the sim. Even the same flying field!

But what about things like pop tops, blenders, tumbles? All my real RC stuff do these things including my 104" Slick, but the sim 540 just does not want to.
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Old Dec 11, 2011, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaser42 View Post

But what about things like pop tops, blenders, tumbles? All my real RC stuff do these things including my 104" Slick, but the sim 540 just does not want to.
weasers right these maneuvers just dont work.
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Old Dec 11, 2011, 11:27 AM
FS One
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United States, IL, Champaign
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Originally Posted by weaser42 View Post
But what about things like pop tops, blenders, tumbles? All my real RC stuff do these things including my 104" Slick, but the sim 540 just does not want to.
Ok, pop top is new to me. I just looked a bonedocs video (youtube), and it's takes a lot of energy to do a pop top, and big control surfaces, and light weight (high thrust-to-weight). Try the new Sbach for pop tops or blenders? Up the power? The Edge 540 in the sim does not have super big ailerons, but the Sbach does. Also, the Funtana 90 does very nice blenders in the sim -> big surfaces and high thrust-to-weight ratio. But it has a long-ish tail, which helps dissipate energy fast, and apparently w/ the pop top you need to carry the energy through longer because you're climbing and trying to spin (but taking up energy). So really these maneuvers can only be done with certain airplanes (we know that already .......).
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Old Dec 11, 2011, 11:39 AM
FS One
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Originally Posted by diceco View Post
WOW.... Impressive Michael! I do see a very little bit of wing rock in the real vid that's not present in the sim but it seems quite manageable. The rest of the prop hanging and flips look just like the real model. Makes me want to order one right up. I'll have to ask my LHS about it next week.

Thanks for the reply, diceco
The sim does capture some wing rock, but the aerodynamics/dynamics behind it are not well understood. Our philosophy is that we put in the sim what we know, and there's a lot about wing rock that we don't know. The UltraStick in the sim will wing rock very much like real, and flying it requires being proactive. For the UltraStick, the wing rock is mostly driven by mass properties. Other parts of wing rock are driven by aero and that's the hard part. I've got some theories, and one of them is in the sim (not in release version), but nothing yet captures all of the wing rock. No simulator does this. BTW -- Wind helps get the wing rock going, so if you fly w/ turbulent winds in the sim, you will see more wing rock.
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Old Dec 11, 2011, 11:43 AM
FS One
Urbana, Illinois
Joined Dec 2004
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reducing wing rock

Diceco, to reduce "instability/wing rock in harriers and parachutes," one way is to add serrations (shark teeth) to the leading edge. This smooths out the kink in both the curves of lift-vs-AoA and drag-vs-AoA.
Peer-reviewed report of wind tunnel tests: start at page 21 of http://zx81.isl.uiuc.edu/camilleg/Se...nelTesting.pdf .

We let Horizon's John Adams (a proficient 3D pilot) fly two indoor foamies, one with, one without the serrations. He felt that the serrated one's wing rock was smaller and slower. Snap rolls slowed down (for the same reason). Inside loops became tighter. Outside loops became twice as tight.

John later duplicated these results with other foamies. I duplicated them too, with a much heavier outdoor foamie biplane (although this one's smaller wingspan meant that its snaps didn't slow down).
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Old Dec 11, 2011, 06:53 PM
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wing rock

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Originally Posted by camilleg View Post
Diceco, to reduce "instability/wing rock in harriers and parachutes," one way is to add serrations (shark teeth) to the leading edge. This smooths out the kink in both the curves of lift-vs-AoA and drag-vs-AoA.
Peer-reviewed report of wind tunnel tests: start at page 21 of http://zx81.isl.uiuc.edu/camilleg/Se...nelTesting.pdf .

We let Horizon's John Adams (a proficient 3D pilot) fly two indoor foamies, one with, one without the serrations. He felt that the serrated one's wing rock was smaller and slower. Snap rolls slowed down (for the same reason). Inside loops became tighter. Outside loops became twice as tight.

John later duplicated these results with other foamies. I duplicated them too, with a much heavier outdoor foamie biplane (although this one's smaller wingspan meant that its snaps didn't slow down).
Very interesting. The data begs some technical questions that are off topic for this forum but two questions that might be of interest are; (although still off topic)

Is this effect of serrations on the LE true for airfoil shaped wing sections too?

Do you apply the serrations across the entire span? Are they applied as close as possible to the leading edge or are they set back from the apex of the leading edge. I assume the amplitude given is the tooth height so when applying a serration to a wing the base of the teeth must be coincident with the surface of the wing, right?

BTW in a previous post on this forum you suggested the possibility of starting a technical forum. Any more thoughts of that, or are topics of this nature covered in another forum?

Thanks, diceco
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Old Dec 11, 2011, 08:15 PM
FS One
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United States, IL, Champaign
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Originally Posted by diceco View Post
BTW in a previous post on this forum you suggested the possibility of starting a technical forum. Any more thoughts of that, or are topics of this nature covered in another forum?

Thanks, diceco
This sim physics thread might be the one you're thinking about:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1543795
Some good discussion got started.
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