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Old Oct 30, 2012, 01:02 PM
Retirement is good
United States, CA, Huntington Beach
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Age?

Nikos,

At 71 now I'm just glad to still be vertical!

You will love the Orion with any power system...

Dick
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Old Nov 01, 2012, 05:37 PM
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Brum UK
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Hacker A20-6XL Geared is light and works well on 3 or 4s, easily obtained in Europe.
Mike
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Old Nov 01, 2012, 06:09 PM
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It's about the same weight as the NEU Dick is using - I would like something a bit heavier.

I ordered the Orion from the UK and should have it next week. I got 4 DS6100 for the ailerons and flaps and will probably go with HS-82MG for elevator and rudder. I already started working on the servo tray - can someone verify 37-38mm of width are OK?

I still need to figure out the power train to use. I really like MVVS 25 3.5/1200 - has anybody used it? The front of the motor is 36mm, but it quickly thickens to 37.8; can anyone verify it will fit? It is a bit heavier than I would like (168g), but still OK.

I plan to have a 60A just behind it, along with a BEC. The battery would go behind these (planning for a 2200 3s). If all this balances OK, then she should fly really well at around 1550-1600g with a 11x7 prop at 40A and it should still be possible to have a 10x7 both for 3s (around 35A) and 4s (around 50A).


I really need to decide on the motor and order it by tomorrow
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Old Nov 01, 2012, 08:53 PM
Retirement is good
United States, CA, Huntington Beach
Joined Jun 2011
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No you don't

Nikos,

You WANT to order the motor tomorrow... you really don't HAVE to. I strongly suggest you wait to get the model in hand and measure the critical dimensions as you are still suggesting a 36+mm motor. Wow, I sound like a grumpy old father... sorry.

Model the motors under consideration in foam and see what fits. You may be surprised... and understand why most of us opt for a gearbox. Mike's Hacker suggestion is okay but the NEU 1105/2.5y will pull more thrust (=watts)... both on a Maxon 4.4:1 GB.

Also... you now mention a 2200mAh 3S battery, 60A ESC and a 168g motor... all of which will weigh 110 grams or so more than my bird and make less thrust. Why?

Dick
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 05:15 AM
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Hi Dick,

Don't worry - I am not going to screw this up by trying to do everything quickly I'm not committing to any system until I have thought this through.

I went over my previous posts and it seems I have done a good job writing down every second thought I have and creating a lot of confusion

Let me start from your setup: this, for me, is a standard, something to compare with and, quite possibly, the EXACT one I will use. I always like my planes light and certainly I am not going the way of 200g+ motors with 1000+ watts of output! Not that I have anything againts these - I will just not be able to handle the damn thing!

So, if I like your setup so much, why do I consider changing it? Well, the only (REALLY MINOR) issue is that the setup is at its limits: this is a 300W system that runs at 400W and pushing it further would be probably too much. Now, I certainly don't want 1000W, but 600 or maybe 700? I am sure 400W is more than enough for this ship and me for now, but maybe I would like something more after I get to know her better

What I am trying to say is that I consider accepting 100-150g of extra weight, if this would result in a more versatile system. And this brings us to the setup I proposed:

ASSUMING the motor fits and the whole thing balances out, I think my proposal would fit the bill. According to my calculations, I would be heavier than you by: 45g from the motor (170g instead of 125g) and another 25 from the ESC, i.e. 70g. I understand you are using a 2200 3S battery, so that would be about the same. The only other difference is the BEC, which could add up to 15g more, but I ALWAYS use BECs in my birds, especially if I expect the ESC to work close to its limits.

So, as you very correctly ask, what would I get for these 80-90g? Well, the proposed setup would have much more output than yours. I mention a couple of examples of props, but these are actually meant to show that the system can easily produce power close to the one you use (obviously, not well explained in my post). However, the system could do much better: the motor is rated at 55A max, so it could probably be pushed to 60A for short bursts, i.e. 600W+ on 3S. Using a 4S battery (another 50-60g more, so still no more than 150g heavier than yours) it could produce close to 750W for short periods.

Therefore, if the proposed system balances, I could start with a prop consuming 350-400W (this would be equal to your setup, but 80-90g heavier), then move up to 500 or 600W just by changing the prop (so, I end up with more power with this 90g extra weight). Theoretically, one could then move even further up, by changing the battery to 4S.

Finally, the setup offers one more option, which created confusion in my previous post. The idea of this option is that you could have a prop that could be used both with 3S and 4S. Obviously, in order to keep down the wattage at 4S you need a prop that would be rather small for 3S. This results to my proposal of a prop that consumes around 35A in 3S: obviously, this setup is heavier than yours and has less power; nonetheless, the trade-off would be that you could also fly with much more power using a 4S. So, you arrive at the field and feel like TD – you throw the 3S in it; you want something more edgy – use the 4S. Obviously, whether this versatility is worth the increase in weight and reduction of thrust when working with a 3S, is up to one’s personal taste

Sooooo, after having (hopefully) explained my thinking, I will now wait for the ship to arrive. Once here, I will see what I will do

Regards,
Nikos
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Old Nov 06, 2012, 08:35 PM
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So which geared motor setup will be the one?
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Old Nov 07, 2012, 02:29 AM
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A NEU 1105G/2Y
I decided to go with a conservative solution for now, also keeping the weight down. This being a higher Kv motor, it should be able to handle a bit higher wattage. I will try to pair it with a 60A ESC and a 13x8 carbon prop and see how it goes - my target for now will be 45-50A on a 2200mAh 3S.
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Old Nov 07, 2012, 08:51 AM
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Very nice, I looked at that motor as well, nice balance. That would be my first choice.

I already have a 1110/ 1Y 6.7 sitting around so will go with that on 3S 15.5x10 or 14.5x9. This air frame needs a little weight in the nose or you will need to add weight the the tail with light ds09 weight class servos. The elevator and rudder servos you choose have a good effect on balance.
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Old Nov 07, 2012, 08:59 AM
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I just received the box with the plane
Man, this looks really nice!

I would really prefer to avoid using any extra weight for balance if possible - I like my planes light. I will have the 60A ESC plus a UBEC just behind the motor and then the battery. Judging from Dick's description and info provided, it does seem that I may end up needing some weight in the nose. I may add a second UBEC for redundance and use an aluminium spinner, then see how it goes.

The 1110 you're planing to use should really give power to this bird
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Old Nov 07, 2012, 06:19 PM
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You are doing a very nice setup. What servos are you using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ditman View Post
I just received the box with the plane
Man, this looks really nice!

I would really prefer to avoid using any extra weight for balance if possible - I like my planes light. I will have the 60A ESC plus a UBEC just behind the motor and then the battery. Judging from Dick's description and info provided, it does seem that I may end up needing some weight in the nose. I may add a second UBEC for redundance and use an aluminium spinner, then see how it goes.

The 1110 you're planing to use should really give power to this bird
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Old Nov 07, 2012, 06:42 PM
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I got four MKS DS6100 along with the plane for the wings; they seem to be fit for the task, based on other posts. I have already prepared a servo tray for the rudder and elevator with two HS-82MG - as I said, I would like to keep this light.

I got everything out of the box, but have not started building yet (apart from the servo tray). There is a half-finished J-3 Piper on my work bench right now. If everything goes as planned, I should be able to start the Orion after this weekend - man, can't wait to get my hands on this
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 04:04 PM
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Fuselage servos?

Hi guys,

I was just about to glue the servo tray for the fuselage in place, when I decided to have a last look at what others are using.

To my surprise, I see Dick using HS 5085MG (rated at 3.6 Kg/cm) and MonsterBFC using MKS DS95 (rated at just 2.44 Kg/cm). Now, these are both 20g+ servos, so clearly heavier than the MKS DS6100 (rated at 3.2 Kg/cm) at 9.5g, which Dick and I are using for the wings.

So, especially taking into account the need to move weight to the front or remove from the back in order to balance this bird, why not use DS6100s for the fuselage, too?

Looking forward to your feedback
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 02:42 PM
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" I got 4 DS6100 for the ailerons and flaps and will probably go with HS-82MG for elevator and rudder."

I still use HS-82MG - fitted them in the fuselage and also for the flaps. They have been reliable for me for many years.
Mike
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 08:21 PM
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I to am working to save weight. Will install Hyperion DS09 AMD's all round. They produce good torque at 2.4 kg/cm or 33.3 oz/in and weight 8.4 g each or 50.4 g (1.78 oz) for all six channels.

I have run these on the elevator of my F5D planes at 200 mph pulling hard pylon turns and F5B elevator / ailerons pulling vertical with 2.5 to 3K watt setups. Life span in these extreme setups is around 20 flight hours to be safe with standard inspection before every flight.

They are great little servos if used correctly and monitored. With the light duty requirements in this air-frame, life cycle should be around 50 hours or better for elevator and maybe flaps if used at high deflections consistently. 50 hours may not sound like a lot but log your actual flight times and see how many years it takes the average pilot to log 50 flight hours on one air frame.

Another thing to help lifespan is limit voltage to 5.5 volts. This lowers heat build up which is the main cause of servo electronics failure that I have experienced. The un detectable speed difference in servo speed from 6 volts will not be felt.
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Last edited by Jaguar22; Nov 16, 2012 at 08:27 PM.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 11:53 PM
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Clean Linkage Install

I wanted to share this. I made a really clean linkage installation on my ailerons and flaps using a simple piece of 0.063" steel wire with an L bend instead of a clevis. This enters the wing through a narrow slot which is made forward of the rear spar and avoids notching it. The wire is retained by two 0.063 brass washers (from Microfasteners) soldered on either side of the horn.

On the servo arm end I use a second piece of wire with a Z bend. The two pieces of wire overlap by about 1" and are soldered together. You can easily adjust the length of the linkage by melting and resetting the joint.

This method gives a really stiff, tight and lightweight linkage, in addition to not requiring a big hole in the skin and a notch in the spar.

Steve
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