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Old Aug 14, 2012, 10:18 PM
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Brazil, MG, Belo Horizonte
Joined Oct 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreisinger View Post
Thanks for the responses. I know Neu makes nice motors and gearboxes, but if the MVVS would suit my purposes, I would find it hard to justify spending 200+ bucks on the Neu 1105/2.5Y/4.4:1 instead of 100 bucks on the MVVS 25/3.5/960. I would think a motor giving me about 450-500 watts would suffice. 20 second climbs to 200 meters would be the goal.
Not really,

The only reason you need is the NEU rocks and the MVVS sucks!

Reisenauer's motors rocks better...

After spending a good money on a nice plane and servos, it makes no sense saving money on a crappy motor...

My 2 cents here...

Good luck!

André
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Old Aug 17, 2012, 08:55 AM
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United States, PA, Carlisle
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Originally Posted by rofly View Post
Dave,

My intent was to build out the Orion as light as possible, thus my choice of a power system. The MVVS 25/3.5/960 http://www.espritmodel.com/mvvs-25-3...ess-motor.aspx at $98 evidently weighs 5.9 oz. The Neu 1105/2.5Y/4.4 http://www.espritmodel.com/neu-1105g-series-motors.aspx at $185 weighs 4.4 oz. The Neu motor per the spec sheet is good for 400 watts for burst use (~20 seconds) and a bit more in practical use.

The key to making the bird balance with this light motor/gearbox setup was the ability to install the ESC side-by-side with the 2200 mAh 3S LiPo battery, thus I used a Jeti Advanced 40A Pro SB ESC http://www.espritmodel.com/jeti-adva...hless-esc.aspx at $80.

Using this “spend a few more bucks to save a few ounces” here and there resulted in the AUW of 51 oz. That included the use of the RFM carbon prop (13x9) and carbon spinner (more bucks, I know). So now I have an Orion with a wing loading of about 10.5 oz/sf that thermals with ease and climbs vertically like a home sick angel.

That said, you will be very happy with the MVVS setup as the Orion can carry a bit more weight for sure. One last thought: For serious ALES competition you may want to look at what is being flown… 3.5 + meters of span, giving better float, better range (L/D) and much easier to see… all at big bucks of course.

In any event, I wish you great lift and lots of fun,

Dick
Dick,

Thanks for your kind reply and advice.

I flew at the Nats earlier this month and yes, most of the planes were in the 3-4 meter range. Many were molded ships such as the Maxa, eSupra, and Explorer. I was flying a 93" Oracle and it performed admirably. I thought I might try the Orion as a way of getting into a molded plane. I just can't justify spending 2500-3000 bucks for a 3.5 to 4 meter plane.

Unfortunately, it seems that ALES is quickly going down the same road as TD and some other forms of competition, a money game. I guess I'll just continue flying my balsa, carbon, and Utracote planes and hope to witness something like what happened at the Polecat in June. Someone who really knows how to fly shows up with an altered Radian and beats all those multi-thousand dollar ships!!

Thanks again for the reply!!

Dave
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Old Aug 17, 2012, 10:14 AM
Retirement is good
United States, CA, Huntington Beach
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Amen to that

Dave,

Amen to big bucks, balsa and Radians. More than once the Orion been out-thermaled by a Radian... which is a fine flying little bird. My flying buddies sure gave me major hoots on those occasions... and well deserved.

I still enjoy flying my electrified R08 that I designed and built in 1978 just as much as I enjoy flying my big bucks Super AVA Pro. It's called a hobby!

Dick
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Old Sep 04, 2012, 09:49 AM
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Canada, ON, Brampton
Joined Mar 2011
109 Posts
New owner Maiden last night

Just a quick note that I did my madine on HiDaven's former Orion built by Lenny970. Thanks for the great build Lenny & Dave's support in getting me flying.
What a great flying machine, my 1st glider !!

I was alittle nervous on 1st flight as this is my most expensive model ever but I know it was a great choice. I set the CofG for around 100mm & she climbs like a homesick angel. I did have a bit of a nose down trim issue (elevon was set to low) for 1st flight but managed to trim it for 2nd flight. I am very impressed on how well she carrys energy & floats as I did not find any lift towards dusk last night.

At this point as I learn more about Sailplane programming & my new DX18, I would like to ask for any Orion tips or specific flap/aileron etc. settings to help with thermaling, camber or speed.
Thanks in advance.
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Old Sep 04, 2012, 12:37 PM
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USA, CA, Cypress
Joined Jun 2008
1,462 Posts
Quote:
the MVVS sucks
I beg to disagree!!!!
My Orion with MVVS setup is great, no, not a hotliner, but more than enough for what I use it.
...
...have you flown in/near Rio? I was there last week and boy, I wish I had taken a sloper (can you fly anything off pao de azucar?) or a thermal glider, lots of vultures and other birds thermalling all over the place
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 04:44 PM
fast,,,, faster
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it's been a while that this great thread been going on,i have read all the pages of it and for those of you using 1110/1ys/6.7:1 please tell me if i can go with 16x16 rfm slim on 3s 2500 ?just ordered one from Bob the orion that is i do have the motor and both props.
i see most went with 14.5x10. or for lighter plane i have a 2221/10 with 4.3:1 that i can swing 17xx prop f3j style.
thanks.
Ben
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 03:56 AM
C-c-c-custom!
United States, NM, Albuquerque
Joined Nov 2011
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Ben,

On the Neu 1110 setup I'm running an RFM 16x10 (~5K' altitude) which gives me ~70A on a 3S and the neighborhood of ~110A on 4S. It climbs well on either setup...but 4S is all I fly The local club guys seem to mock me quite frequently as most have optimized their ALES craft for minimum weight and 200m/30s criteria.

The 16x16 will IMO put you more in line for fast flight speed, not the thrust we want for these models. I bet your pitch speed would be 3x or more than the flight speed of this thermal airplane (i.e. useless amperage) and will prop stall on launch if you have throttle-toggle. You'll get more thrust, efficiency and enjoyment from a less pitched prop spinning faster.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 09:01 PM
fast,,,, faster
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KELLER TEXAS
Joined Feb 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closedloop View Post
Ben,

On the Neu 1110 setup I'm running an RFM 16x10 (~5K' altitude) which gives me ~70A on a 3S and the neighborhood of ~110A on 4S. It climbs well on either setup...but 4S is all I fly The local club guys seem to mock me quite frequently as most have optimized their ALES craft for minimum weight and 200m/30s criteria.

The 16x16 will IMO put you more in line for fast flight speed, not the thrust we want for these models. I bet your pitch speed would be 3x or more than the flight speed of this thermal airplane (i.e. useless amperage) and will prop stall on launch if you have throttle-toggle. You'll get more thrust, efficiency and enjoyment from a less pitched prop spinning faster.
thanks a bunch for your reply,i will do that, can go 14.5x10 on 4s2200.
Ben
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 03:02 PM
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Spain
Joined May 2011
36 Posts
Dual setup?

Hi guys,

I am thinking of ordering an Orion and have been doing some thinking on the power setup. I would like to fly this ship both as a warmliner and a TD. In order to achieve this, I need the ability of a wide range of amperage and weights.

I am thinking along the following lines: use a motor around 150g that should be able to produce around 30A with a small battery (1300 - 1600 mAh, 3s if possible), but could also produce much more wattage with a heavier 4s battery.

This range of wattage (350 to 800-900) seems to rule out a lot of motors discussed in this thread. The only combination I have come up with is an outrunner (Scorpion S 3020-14 at 931 Kv, 150g) that would fit nicely with a 12x8 folding prop. The calculator says it will draw around 35A on 3s and around 55A on 4S.

So, any input on the idea in general? If you think the idea is plaussible, do you have any other setup to propose?

I would be grateful for any input.


Nikos
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 12:06 AM
Retirement is good
United States, CA, Huntington Beach
Joined Jun 2011
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Dual setup?

Nikos,

I agree with your calc... looks like a winner. There is just one problem. The Scorpion S3020-14 is a 38mm diameter motor and the Orion nose is 38mm OUTSIDE diameter. Bummer! Plus, the motor wires have to find a home.

Another thought is that on 1600 mAh the motor run would be short, very short for a warmliner.

Having looked at a lot of power systems I ended up with that described in Post #301, herein. What makes aircraft design such fun is all of those bloody compromises... sometimes a bit frustrating though.

Good luck!

Dick
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 09:18 AM
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Spain
Joined May 2011
36 Posts
Hi Dick,

Thanks a lot for your feedback - you are, of course, correct about the motor

I have seen your setup and, actually, it was your approach that led me to this path. Bear with me for a sec:

You have the NEU motor which goes at about 125g, plus the battery, which I guess should weigh around 210g and the ESC that should be around 35g. Accordingly, you have around 370g crammed at the front of the plane, in a space spanning around 180-190mm behind the firewall (61mm for the motor, plus 115mm for the battery, plus a few more for spaces among them).

Now, let's imagine we use a 1300mAh battery, which should weigh around 110g (a bit heavy maybe, but we assume hich C-rate). It would probably be possible to balance the plane like this (the 1300mah battery, although lighter, would be placed more forward due to being shorter) or with the addition of 10-20g of lead. This would leave the plane almost 100g lighter.

Arguably, 1300mAh will not get you a lot of climbs, maybe only two or three; still, the purpose of this setup would be to fly in calm or no wind, just for thermalling. Sure, the plane would climb realy sloooooowly, but this setup should be enough just for thermal duration flying.

With this setup, you could also fly the plane with a 4S battery placed more to the aft, which would allow you to fly more agressively whenever you wanted to.

Obviously, using a 4S battery with the same prop, would mean a few changes: a larger ESC (probably a 60A, which would weigh around 50g at the most) and a larger motor. But you could make these changes (let's say 20g more for the ESC, plus 50g for the motor) and STILL be lighter than the original (i.e. yours) setup with a small 3S battery, with the added advantage of being able to also fly the plane with a 4S one.

Does any of the above make sense?

If yes, and since I have already demonstrated my complete inability to select a proper motor, do you have a motor to propose that would fit the bill? This would mean a motor that weighs 160-180g and can turn the same propeler at 30-35A with a 3S and at 50-55A with a 4S.

Any suggestions welcome

Nikos
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Last edited by ditman; Oct 30, 2012 at 09:26 AM.
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 10:19 AM
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....
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Last edited by ditman; Oct 30, 2012 at 11:16 AM.
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 11:53 AM
Retirement is good
United States, CA, Huntington Beach
Joined Jun 2011
380 Posts
You removed the Gs3020-12

Nikos,

You are no fun at all. You (correctly) removed the Gs3020, another 38mm motor, but I do like your sense of humor!

The weights and moment arms (measured from the "firewall") in my Orion are as follows: Props are props (about 30g), Neu with gear box - 125g at 32mm, 2200 mAh 3S battery - 190g at 160mm, Jeti 40A ESC - 35g at 170mm.

Important to note that the ESC must be side-by-side with the battery for balance, hence the use of the Jeti ESC (very thin for its capacity). The total consumed space is about 240mm. From the aft end of the motor to the forward end of the battery is about 38mm. That was done to move the CG aft a bit. There is room to move the battery forward about 25mm.

If using a 4S battery the ESC must be moved aft of the battery, thus longer motor wires, but the balance should work out okay.

I may poke around for other power system solutions, but then I may not. Got a new Supra Pro SC and feel the need to fly... and I really like the Orion as is.

Feeling your pain... but what great fun!

Best regards,

Dick
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 12:31 PM
Retirement is good
United States, CA, Huntington Beach
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Calculating Moments

Nikos,

BTW, it is about 434mm from the nose ("firewall") to a 108mm CG point on the wing measured from the LE at the root (side of fuselage). The aft end of the battery could be as much as 265mm or so from the "firewall."

This may help you calc various moments for your proposed power systems to achieve a proper CG.

Cheers,

Dick
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 12:51 PM
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Spain
Joined May 2011
36 Posts
Hi Dick,

Thanks a lot for the helpful comments - at my age I gratefully take whatever comes my way

Concerning the motor: hey man, I honestly never expected anyone to actively search for a solution - this is something I have to do

It's just that with the Internet I have been (pleasently) surprised many times by someone who comes up immediatelly with an answer to a question, since they have already coped with the same issue. No luck in this case, though

It is madening that I cannot seem to locate a motor just a bit smaller than the Align 500mx, which I have used successfully (well, at least I like it ) in my Staufenbiel Falcon. I just need one that is a bit thinner and (possibly, but not necessarily) longer.

I am actually thinking of using its smaller brother, the 450mx 1700Kv with an 8x6 prop. I know from experience that these motors can take huge amounts of abuse, but still 50A may be too much for an 85g motor. Plus, the small diameter of the prop....

Anyway, I am almost certain that my next ship will be the Orion, so I'll probably order one in the next couple of days and keep looking for a good power train.


Cheers,
Nikos
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