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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:39 AM
Wherever you go there you are
7oneWo1f's Avatar
United States, MN, Minneapolis
Joined Nov 2011
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:07 PM
Video Juggernaut
Wingbreaker's Avatar
FL
Joined Nov 2003
2,653 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luv3d View Post
Nice job Wingbreaker! I saw some nice rolling harrier practice- kept it going for a while too- great! The harrier is coming along nicely, as is the elevator. I haven't had a 51" slick, but had a 42", and it wing rocked until I got the wing fully stalled- you might be able to get a deeper harrier to make your wings more steady. It really makes harrier landings easier and will give you a better sense of control (at least it did for me). For the record, none of my EXP's wing rock in the transition...they are smooooooth....

Thanks for sharing, even if it isn't an EXP!
My harriers and elevators are hit or miss. sometimes they are perfect others it seems like I just can't get it locked. I'll try your suggestion. Thanks.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 07:46 AM
I am ready for HHAEFI!!
powerlines's Avatar
United States, GA, Cochran
Joined Apr 2004
6,573 Posts
Try to not correct with ail and more with rudder!! Correcting with ail will cause wing rock.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:04 AM
Video Juggernaut
Wingbreaker's Avatar
FL
Joined Nov 2003
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Originally Posted by powerlines View Post
Try to not correct with ail and more with rudder!! Correcting with ail will cause wing rock.
makes sense, thanks.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:58 AM
Got the Slickness
gabrielisrael's Avatar
Seattle, WA
Joined Jul 2010
2,520 Posts
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Originally Posted by Wingbreaker View Post
My harriers and elevators are hit or miss. sometimes they are perfect others it seems like I just can't get it locked. I'll try your suggestion. Thanks.
Find what angle of harrier position your plane likes the best. I have seen alot of people struggle with too much angle in the beginning. If you experience any wing rock, and EF airframes should have little if no wing rock, a slight touch on the rudder helps.

When turning, make sure you inside wing is slightly lower. If it is higher than the outside wing, it will not turn for you.

Lastly, CG can make a big difference. This is true for many 3D manuevers. You should experiment alittle with slightly nose heavy, neutral and slighty tail heavy.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:16 AM
Video Juggernaut
Wingbreaker's Avatar
FL
Joined Nov 2003
2,653 Posts
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Originally Posted by gabrielisrael View Post
Find what angle of harrier position your plane likes the best. I have seen alot of people struggle with too much angle in the beginning. If you experience any wing rock, and EF airframes should have little if no wing rock, a slight touch on the rudder helps.

When turning, make sure you inside wing is slightly lower. If it is higher than the outside wing, it will not turn for you.

Lastly, CG can make a big difference. This is true for many 3D manuevers. You should experiment alittle with slightly nose heavy, neutral and slighty tail heavy.
I finally got my CG where I think it needs to be. All rock issues are me now. If I use little to no input besides throttle the thing is stable as heck in elevator or harrier. I'm just heavy on the thumbs so I'm sure it is just me needing to lighten up on the controls. I was using ailerons though so this was probably my biggest issue.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 10:58 AM
Not as Good as The Kid
Aeroplayin's Avatar
South Pasadena, FL
Joined Sep 2009
6,449 Posts
I had trouble with this too until I finally asked Tom what I was doing wrong. He understand it so well and communicates the process so well that I felt like an azz waiting so long to ask him. Correcting with rubber, like powerlines said, is the main thing because it seems so natural to correct the wing rock with ailerons. But what's really happening is that the wings are 'swimming' more than they are simply going up and down.

As one wing stalls first, it experiences more drag, which makes it slower than the other wing, which speeds up from the plane yawing in the direction of the stalled wing. As with a full scale plane, if you use aileron to lift a stalled wing, the down aileron only creates more drag, which can make things worse.

The Rudder applied in one direction will yaw the plane in that direction, speeding up the stalled wing. Over compensation will slow the flying wing and cause it to stall if you're behind in the correction.

So the yawing from side to side speeds up or slows down a wing and causes the faster wing to fly and the slower wing to stall. This is what I mean by swimming as opposed to rocking -- there is forward motion involved, along with the up and down motion.

As far as angle of attack, pulsing the throttle with the elevator back will help increase the AOA and stall both wings. If both wings are stalled at the same time, the rocking goes away.

Forward motion tends to try to level out the plane again and one will will usually start flying first. Using vectored thrust from the prop over the up elevator will keep the tail down so that both wings remain in stall. Good throttle control and a nice big prop disk will help.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:39 AM
Video Juggernaut
Wingbreaker's Avatar
FL
Joined Nov 2003
2,653 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroplayin View Post
I had trouble with this too until I finally asked Tom what I was doing wrong. He understand it so well and communicates the process so well that I felt like an azz waiting so long to ask him. Correcting with rubber, like powerlines said, is the main thing because it seems so natural to correct the wing rock with ailerons. But what's really happening is that the wings are 'swimming' more than they are simply going up and down.

As one wing stalls first, it experiences more drag, which makes it slower than the other wing, which speeds up from the plane yawing in the direction of the stalled wing. As with a full scale plane, if you use aileron to lift a stalled wing, the down aileron only creates more drag, which can make things worse.

The Rudder applied in one direction will yaw the plane in that direction, speeding up the stalled wing. Over compensation will slow the flying wing and cause it to stall if you're behind in the correction.

So the yawing from side to side speeds up or slows down a wing and causes the faster wing to fly and the slower wing to stall. This is what I mean by swimming as opposed to rocking -- there is forward motion involved, along with the up and down motion.

As far as angle of attack, pulsing the throttle with the elevator back will help increase the AOA and stall both wings. If both wings are stalled at the same time, the rocking goes away.

Forward motion tends to try to level out the plane again and one will will usually start flying first. Using vectored thrust from the prop over the up elevator will keep the tail down so that both wings remain in stall. Good throttle control and a nice big prop disk will help.
throttle management is the hardest part of 3d IMO.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:42 AM
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7oneWo1f's Avatar
United States, MN, Minneapolis
Joined Nov 2011
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For me I think it's inverted rudder managment.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:50 AM
bryansifsof44's Avatar
United States, AK, Anchorage
Joined Oct 2011
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Originally Posted by LoneWolfRC View Post
For me I think it's inverted rudder managment.
Just remember coming towards you... You point the rudder stick the way you want the nose to go. Then the rest will come. After enough time you don't even have to think what stick movements to do, it just does what you want it to.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 01:50 PM
Not as Good as The Kid
Aeroplayin's Avatar
South Pasadena, FL
Joined Sep 2009
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Originally Posted by LoneWolfRC View Post
For me I think it's inverted rudder managment.
And this is where time on the Sim comes into play. I spend all my time on the Sim getting to the point where I don't have to think about thumb input for inverted and KE flight anymore. When I have to think what my thumbs are doing, I get behind the plane and the only thing that saves me is that I'm still flying at least a mistake high. I have the addiction of two pilots to support, you know.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:01 PM
Wherever you go there you are
7oneWo1f's Avatar
United States, MN, Minneapolis
Joined Nov 2011
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Originally Posted by Aeroplayin View Post
And this is where time on the Sim comes into play. I spend all my time on the Sim getting to the point where I don't have to think about thumb input for inverted and KE flight anymore. When I have to think what my thumbs are doing, I get behind the plane and the only thing that saves me is that I'm still flying at least a mistake high. I have the addiction of two pilots to support, you know.
I agree. I got the KE's instinctive, and get the inverted down if I just do it for a bit of time. But sim did and continues to help.

We both have two pilots to support. And, like you, my son gives me tips now--good ones.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 03:11 PM
Got the Slickness
gabrielisrael's Avatar
Seattle, WA
Joined Jul 2010
2,520 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroplayin View Post
And this is where time on the Sim comes into play. I spend all my time on the Sim getting to the point where I don't have to think about thumb input for inverted and KE flight anymore. When I have to think what my thumbs are doing, I get behind the plane and the only thing that saves me is that I'm still flying at least a mistake high. I have the addiction of two pilots to support, you know.
+1 on the use of the sim.

It just takes alot of practice..

Eventually you will want to do figure 8's for turning and control.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:09 PM
On loan to Texas
Ohio AV8TOR's Avatar
United States, TX, Benbrook
Joined Oct 2005
5,188 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroplayin View Post
And this is where time on the Sim comes into play. I spend all my time on the Sim getting to the point where I don't have to think about thumb input for inverted and KE flight anymore. When I have to think what my thumbs are doing, I get behind the plane and the only thing that saves me is that I'm still flying at least a mistake high. I have the addiction of two pilots to support, you know.
What models do you fly in your sim sessions?
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:14 PM
Registered User
Burke, VA
Joined Sep 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerlines View Post
Try to not correct with ail and more with rudder!! Correcting with ail will cause wing rock.
It also helps to use a pretty fair amount of expo to keep rudder movement minimal around center stick. This keeps you from over controlling in harrier as well, you have to use very little rudder usually.
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