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Old May 04, 2011, 09:41 AM
The "Foaminator"
mikeruth's Avatar
United States, CA, Los Angeles
Joined Mar 2007
2,131 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr View Post
Radio challenges?

1) you don't need crow. If your radio needs you to flip multiple switches to get crow, skip it. If crow can be set up easily and operated from a single switch, slider or stick, then great. Othewise don't obsess over it. It is not that important for flat field thermal soaring.


2) You don't need the two flaps servos on their own channels. Having them on a Y works fine for thermal soaring. Just make sure you set them up with the flap to elevator mix for landing. If that works on a 3 way switch or a slider, that if fine. Proportional is nice but 3 positions ( off, 50% 100%) is plenty.

3) Give priority to camber control. If you can only get camber settings for the flaps and can't include the aileorns, don't worrry about it. Flaps alone will be a big help. Same for reflex. Reflex with the flaps alone will be very helpful.

If you become a committed full house glider pilot, you will eventually want a radio with glider/sailplane programming. But if your radio just doesn't do it well, don't go crazy. Keep it simple and you will make fewer mistakes, have fewer crashes and will be enjoying a lot of long flights.
I like the way you think .

Good advice to all.

Mike R
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Old May 04, 2011, 12:15 PM
cuz real planes cost too much
USA, CO, Frederick
Joined Jan 2011
823 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr View Post
Radio challenges?

1) you don't need crow. If your radio needs you to flip multiple switches to get crow, skip it. If crow can be set up easily and operated from a single switch, slider or stick, then great. Othewise don't obsess over it. It is not that important for flat field thermal soaring.


2) You don't need the two flaps servos on their own channels. Having them on a Y works fine for thermal soaring. Just make sure you set them up with the flap to elevator mix for landing. If that works on a 3 way switch or a slider, that if fine. Proportional is nice but 3 positions ( off, 50% 100%) is plenty.

3) Give priority to camber control. If you can only get camber settings for the flaps and can't include the aileorns, don't worrry about it. Flaps alone will be a big help. Same for reflex. Reflex with the flaps alone will be very helpful.

If you become a committed full house glider pilot, you will eventually want a radio with glider/sailplane programming. But if your radio just doesn't do it well, don't go crazy. Keep it simple and you will make fewer mistakes, have fewer crashes and will be enjoying a lot of long flights.
hmmm, that may be stretching the optimism.

i hear what you are saying, and not arguing at all. but notice that you are talking to a lot of folks that have bought a full house glider, not a RE/RES glider. i would think the usual midset that accompanies this kind of purchase involves looking for possibilities in control/performance. the pro is conducive to tryin every kind of control. that's why I bought the pro instaed of a RE ship. the full house idea doesn't seem like an idea developed for a minimalist.
.
jumpy, i know we all have different desires and even needs that we have to weigh when trying to pgm these radios. i really wish i got a radio that didn't limit my possibilities, but knowing that at the start is unrealistic. the salesman almost sold me a DX5. it wasn't till i read the HH pgm that mentioned "full house" pgming is not possible until you get to the DX7 that i "stepped up" to the 7ch Tx. Now i feel i'd like the airtronics sd10g, but that's more $$$.... anyways, my personal needs doesn't require proportional throttle. i was worried about it at 1st, but my fears quickly dissipated. i have a second speed pgm'd in (switch), but only occaisionally use it. now that i have the wing TE, the flaps, crow on the throttle stick, i use it ALL the time (and rudder, too). i only use motor when necessary, and still manipulate the wing when using the motor. but that's just me. in other words, i thought i wanted proportional motor, but it turns out i don't.
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Old May 04, 2011, 12:23 PM
Drifting off the reservation..
JumpySticks's Avatar
USA, LA, Broussard
Joined Jan 2011
2,296 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr View Post
Radio challenges?

1) you don't need crow. If your radio needs you to flip multiple switches to get crow, skip it. If crow can be set up easily and operated from a single switch, slider or stick, then great. Othewise don't obsess over it. It is not that important for flat field thermal soaring.


2) You don't need the two flaps servos on their own channels. Having them on a Y works fine for thermal soaring. Just make sure you set them up with the flap to elevator mix for landing. If that works on a 3 way switch or a slider, that if fine. Proportional is nice but 3 positions ( off, 50% 100%) is plenty.

3) Give priority to camber control. If you can only get camber settings for the flaps and can't include the aileorns, don't worrry about it. Flaps alone will be a big help. Same for reflex. Reflex with the flaps alone will be very helpful.

If you become a committed full house glider pilot, you will eventually want a radio with glider/sailplane programming. But if your radio just doesn't do it well, don't go crazy. Keep it simple and you will make fewer mistakes, have fewer crashes and will be enjoying a lot of long flights.
All very good points indeed. In fact my camber setting is adjusted so that the ailerons do not drop quite as far as the flaps. this helps to reduce tip stall at slow speeds, where camber is typically used. I don't use crow much either.

The mixing of aileron and flaps is done with the Flap/sys program, and eliminating that might allow for the throttle switching. Thanks for the suggestion.

As it stands now, I can select flaps, crow, camber and reflex as per the stock setup. Flaps and crow both can be slightly adjusted using the three way camber/reflex switch. Crow includes about 45 degree flap. Crow combined with flap gives nearly 90 degree flap with crow. So I should not be complaining too much.

Just thinking that flaps and throttle on same stick would be really neat for glide slope control.

What would really be the ultimate IMHO would be flaps full down with the throttle stick back, then flaps raised as the stick moves forward, to 0 flap at neutral stick.Then a small null gap in the throttle stick. Then the top half of the throttle stick proportionately raising the throttle to full at the forward position. The ultimate glide slope control IMHO.

Second choice would be a switch on the throttle changing it between flap and throttle.
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Old May 04, 2011, 12:29 PM
Drifting off the reservation..
JumpySticks's Avatar
USA, LA, Broussard
Joined Jan 2011
2,296 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretendpilot View Post
hmmm, that may be stretching the optimism.

i hear what you are saying, and not arguing at all. but notice that you are talking to a lot of folks that have bought a full house glider, not a RE/RES glider. i would think the usual midset that accompanies this kind of purchase involves looking for possibilities in control/performance. the pro is conducive to tryin every kind of control. that's why I bought the pro instaed of a RE ship. the full house idea doesn't seem like an idea developed for a minimalist.
.
jumpy, i know we all have different desires and even needs that we have to weigh when trying to pgm these radios. i really wish i got a radio that didn't limit my possibilities, but knowing that at the start is unrealistic. the salesman almost sold me a DX5. it wasn't till i read the HH pgm that mentioned "full house" pgming is not possible until you get to the DX7 that i "stepped up" to the 7ch Tx. Now i feel i'd like the airtronics sd10g, but that's more $$$.... anyways, my personal needs doesn't require proportional throttle. i was worried about it at 1st, but my fears quickly dissipated. i have a second speed pgm'd in (switch), but only occaisionally use it. now that i have the wing TE, the flaps, crow on the throttle stick, i use it ALL the time (and rudder, too). i only use motor when necessary, and still manipulate the wing when using the motor. but that's just me. in other words, i thought i wanted proportional motor, but it turns out i don't.
You make a very good point. Just thinking about it now, I rarely use the motor on less than full power any more. Gotten much better at getting back to the landing zone without those little power blips. Aeajr's contests have helped me tremendously in that regard.
The argument for your programming setup is very convincing. Thanks!
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Old May 04, 2011, 12:35 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
LI, New York, USA
Joined Mar 2003
24,244 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretendpilot View Post
hmmm, that may be stretching the optimism.

i hear what you are saying, and not arguing at all. but notice that you are talking to a lot of folks that have bought a full house glider, not a RE/RES glider. i would think the usual midset that accompanies this kind of purchase involves looking for possibilities in control/performance. the pro is conducive to tryin every kind of control. that's why I bought the pro instaed of a RE ship. the full house idea doesn't seem like an idea developed for a minimalist..
.
jumpy, i know we all have different desires and even needs that we have to weigh when trying to pgm these radios. i really wish i got a radio that didn't limit my possibilities, but knowing that at the start is unrealistic. the salesman almost sold me a DX5. it wasn't till i read the HH pgm that mentioned "full house" pgming is not possible until you get to the DX7 that i "stepped up" to the 7ch Tx. Now i feel i'd like the airtronics sd10g, but that's more $$$.... anyways, my personal needs doesn't require proportional throttle. i was worried about it at 1st, but my fears quickly dissipated. i have a second speed pgm'd in (switch), but only occaisionally use it. now that i have the wing TE, the flaps, crow on the throttle stick, i use it ALL the time (and rudder, too). i only use motor when necessary, and still manipulate the wing when using the motor. but that's just me. in other words, i thought i wanted proportional motor, but it turns out i don't.
My note was directed to those who want to fly a full house glider but who are not prepared to invest in a glider radio. Having a feel for what is important and what is not can help destress the set-up.

Certainly if you are willing to spend $400-$800 for a competition sailplane radio to fly your $200 RR Radian Pro, I would never discourage you. I am sure you will want to be sure it has at least 5 flight conditions each with fully adjusted mixes, expo, and the like.

But, are 5 flight conditions enough? I don't have this, but somehow seem to get around the sky just fine.

There are lots of people flying full house gliders that don't have full blown sailplane radios. And that is just fine.


> Choosing a Sailplane Radio - What to Consider
> http://forums.flyesl.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=223
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Old May 04, 2011, 12:53 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
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Joined Mar 2003
24,244 Posts
What if all you had was the basic DX5e and the AR500 to fly your Radian Pro. Would you be able to to fly? ABSOLUTELY!


The AR500 has a second aileron slot that acts like a built in Y cable for the ailerons so they can operate on one channel.

You can set up aileron differential mechancally. In fact I think the Radian Pro comes with the ailerons set-up for aileron diff done at the servos. BTW, aileron differential is not mandatory. You just use a little more rudder to overcome adverse yaw.

You can move the throttle to the gear switch. You only need throttle for climb so climb at full throttle, then shut it off.

Put the flaps on a Y cable and put them on the left stick and have fully variable flaps. The flaps are installed in such a way as to allow this. Now you have a lot of flexibility to manually create reflex, camber and use full range flaps for landing. Learn to add some down elevator as you apply flaps when you are landing. This is how full house RC gliders were flown before there were computer radios.

Reflex - flaps up 1/4" - you can do this with a few clicks of the trim button.

Thermal camber - flaps down about 1/4" - Again, a few clicks of the trim button.

Now you have all you need to fly a full house glider on a cheap 5 channel standard radio and receiver with no computer mixes and no sailplane programming.

Would this be my recommended radio? No! But if you have it and don't want to buy a new radio right now, then use it and fly!

You wlll learn to coordinate rudder and ailerons to fly coordinated turns.

You will learn to add elevator to flaps to maintain a smooth landing approach.

It works!
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Old May 04, 2011, 01:07 PM
Clear to launch... Delta Out!
Outrider Delta's Avatar
Eleele Hawaii
Joined Jan 2011
65 Posts
Well I fly all my planes from the DX6i and there is a plane for every memory slot on the radio. I don't have any of these issues. Flaps and Crow are all I have programmed due to the limitations of the radio I picked I hardley ever crash and I am in the air twice the amount time as most of our pilots. That being said. Make the most of what you have. Having a 1000 dollar radio doesn't make you a better pilot or person. I'm sure most of the pros could take a four channel radio and fly circles around me all day long. Even if I was on the top of the line transmitter. The only downfall I see is that I will not know how to use all the functions when I eventually do buy my dream radio. I wouldn't be surprised if I crash a few planes while learning to manipulate the buttons and switches.
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Old May 04, 2011, 01:58 PM
Skill Seeker
Cordelia, CA
Joined Jan 2011
268 Posts
I've got a DX6i and have flaps and crow or reflex(depending on the site) programmed as well. I am using one mix for aileron to rudder, but was just thinking I could pull that and use it for camber.

I then found out that I could put flaps on the left stick, move throttle to the gear switch, and have fine control of the flaps as well as fixed camber and reflex on the ailerons.

But I've already found a used 9303 and will move the Radian Pro to that radio. Going through the manuals I realized that a used 9303 is some serious "bang for the buck." It has to be the best value for features I've seen in this hobby.
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Old May 04, 2011, 01:59 PM
Crash McNooblet
ci_phon's Avatar
United States, KY, Lexington
Joined Nov 2009
47 Posts
Sink or too heavy?

HowD howD!


If I may...

I maidened my RP yesterday afternoon after having it sitting on a table for 3+ weeks.... waiting for a break in the wind and rain. I didn't want to try trimming it out and whatnot with too much wind, so I had been waiting for a 'calm' spell, and that was yesterday afternoon after a cold front passed through following a previous cold front the day before... just kept getting colder and colder....bleh!

The maiden and following flight weren't bad, but they weren't that good either. There was a slight breeze every so often... like gentle gusts of maybe 5mph, lasting up to 15seconds per gust. They became more noticeable as time passed and as the RP reached about 250ft and higher. The clouds were finally moving on and the sun was coming out for the first time, I could feel the sun's warmth... but I could also feel that the air temperature was steadily dropping too. (This was from 6:30pm to 8:00pm Eastern, sun set around 8:30pm).

I felt I should describe all that in the event the temps/weather had an impact on my issue.....which is:

Myy RP just didn't want to stay up! With the plane level as level can be.... it just kept right on losing altitude... whether I was headed up wind or down... cross wind or circling. There were only 2 times/conditions in which it didn't want to fall, the first and most obvious would be when using the motor, the second is what I'm assuming was my very first thermal! I was flying with the wind but at a slight angle, wind blowing from the rear-right of the plane if you will.... then, within seconds of both the short gust stopping and my feeling the heat on my face, the plane just jumped up...still level and not going forward very fast... it just jumped UP like something hit it from the bottom... but then was lost about 40ft later... I turned around and headed towards that general vicinity, not more than 100ft up from the ground, and it did it again. This time I quickly rolled and turned with both ailerons, rudder, and a good amount of up elevator. I circled for about 3 minutes, constantly gaining altitude and trying my best...not knowing what I was doing... but trying my best to keep it from picking up so much speed.

I got tired of this quickly, sadly, because I was still wanting to finish getting a better feel for the plane and making sure the trim was good, and so I banked down and straight, flipping my switches to apply what little 'crow' I had set, but only for a few seconds just to keep from picking up too much speed.

So, with all that in mind, I need to throw this in last.....

My RP was slightly tail heavy, enough to cause it to porpoise, and porpoise none the less.... but I need to stress that it was very slow at doing so. In other words, my CoG is maybe 2-3mm too far forward at most.

Also, my RP's total weight/AUW was 1008 grams, or 35.55579 oz, or 2.222237 lbs. That is 28 grams more than the stated AUW in the manual, and is attributed to... having swapped out the stock 1300mAh pack for a 2200mAh pack. I did this because it was easier to balance the plane with the 2200 pack than it was to balance it with the 1300...because of how tail heavy the plane was.

Without any packs installed, my RP's weight is 818 grams. With the 1300mAh lipo it weighs 914 grams. Doesn't that sound wrong to anyone? I've got a few planes, and not once have I had one that was "underweight"!!! Not by such an extreme amount anyways! Most of the time, after adding a few strips of tape here and there to protect the leading edges of wings, I always end up with a slightly heavier than stated plane...but never under!!!!!

Regardless, it balanced out, so back on track I go!

To the point/question.... Which is most likely the cause for my plane to simply keep losing altitude even while the plane is level by whatever means, and is traveling quickly & with the wind: A) Plane is too heavy, B) that there was a lot of "sinking" going on if/and/or because of the much colder air coming in and was too late in the evening for the sun to compensate enough to keep the air buoyant enough for a glider, or C) the bad COG, which caused the very slight porpoising, which if "any" porpoising is present is still way too much?

(would those conditions cause a "sink"? cold air, warm setting sun, but constantly and drastically falling temps with a slight breeze slowly picking up in frequency and speed).

Oh yeah, I couldn't get "upwind" without using the motor, regardless of how high up I started out at when turning from down to up, and no matter how I moved the control surfaces, with a DX6i set up as described in the video linked to in post "3403"

(video)

Sorry for the long drawn out post, I wanted to make sure that I made as much detailed information available as possible. I don't know everything there is to know about gliders or how to remain "gliding" in different weather/wind conditions. I've read some of the information from the link provided much earlier on in the thread, about hunting for the elusive thermals and sloping... and I am learning. Also, the last time I had a plane lose altitude like that, when that plane was level for whatever reason and by any means.... it was an Aerobird 3 with the wings improperly "shimmed" combined with the V-tail's angle (2 screws to adjust it's angle front - rear).

The first thing I'm going to do is re-balance for use with the 1300mAh pack, even if I have to move the ESC down into the battery cavity and place the lipo where the ESC is by default.... I need to try to eliminate the porpoising. But can that (very slow and gentle, **hands-off) porpoising combined with it being slightly tail heavy really cause it to sink and remain level? (Der... by the way, the porpoising and sinking while level don't happen with each other at the same time... I mean, when the plane is porpoising it WILL still lose altitude, but if I am on the sticks and am keeping the plane level...manually with the elevator, will is still fly like crap and sink like it just isn't meant to "glide"?

I would appreciate any advice at this point. I've been looking forward to flying "a" Radian for a long time now just so I could "glide" and stay up there for an hour or so.... and now that I have one, it fricken glides about as well as my Corsair or Typhoon 2!

Thanks in advance, even if it's just someone telling me to pull my you know what out of my 'doopa' lol, and first fix what I've admitted to knowing is bad to begin with.


Again, sorry for such a long drawn out post, and again again...
Thank you...whomever/everyone, my RP was intended to become my main flyer and preferred AP doojob. It means a lot to me...let's just say it that way.

-Scott
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Old May 04, 2011, 04:09 PM
Clear to launch... Delta Out!
Outrider Delta's Avatar
Eleele Hawaii
Joined Jan 2011
65 Posts
I was not pleased with my Pro the first few days until I got the prop and balance issues under control. I use a 2100 battery and added 1 quarter and 1 penny to the vertical stab. Now she is as pretty and smooth in the air as you could ask for. I deal with too much wind here on a daily basis to use the 1300. better penetration with the larger battery for me. I think you will find once you get it all trimmed and balanced for your style, the flights will get much longer and more enjoyable. It's never gonna float as pretty as the radian 1 (at least not in my inexperienced hands) but it is a great application for a daily flyer. for the first time in months I left mine at home this weekend since I was maidening a new hotliner and after all was said and done I kept looking back at my pit area thinking I should have brought the pro. She did get out last night to flap her wings in some 25mph gusty wind, and like always she took it in stride and is resting at home waiting for her next run.
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Old May 04, 2011, 04:21 PM
cuz real planes cost too much
USA, CO, Frederick
Joined Jan 2011
823 Posts
scott, give it another try or two on better days (better times). you don't want to troubleshhot your plane for what might be issues with the weather. i've tried to fly a couple times, during previous/colder months, when the plane just flew like a rock. even once like a heavy rock. seems like those cold fronts can have some very wide/large down-drafts. they can also magnify the thermal effects on your plane.
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Old May 04, 2011, 05:32 PM
Drifting off the reservation..
JumpySticks's Avatar
USA, LA, Broussard
Joined Jan 2011
2,296 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr View Post
What if all you had was the basic DX5e and the AR500 to fly your Radian Pro. Would you be able to to fly? ABSOLUTELY!


The AR500 has a second aileron slot that acts like a built in Y cable for the ailerons so they can operate on one channel.

You can set up aileron differential mechancally. In fact I think the Radian Pro comes with the ailerons set-up for aileron diff done at the servos. BTW, aileron differential is not mandatory. You just use a little more rudder to overcome adverse yaw.

You can move the throttle to the gear switch. You only need throttle for climb so climb at full throttle, then shut it off.

Put the flaps on a Y cable and put them on the left stick and have fully variable flaps. The flaps are installed in such a way as to allow this. Now you have a lot of flexibility to manually create reflex, camber and use full range flaps for landing. Learn to add some down elevator as you apply flaps when you are landing. This is how full house RC gliders were flown before there were computer radios.

Reflex - flaps up 1/4" - you can do this with a few clicks of the trim button.

Thermal camber - flaps down about 1/4" - Again, a few clicks of the trim button.

Now you have all you need to fly a full house glider on a cheap 5 channel standard radio and receiver with no computer mixes and no sailplane programming.

Would this be my recommended radio? No! But if you have it and don't want to buy a new radio right now, then use it and fly!

You wlll learn to coordinate rudder and ailerons to fly coordinated turns.

You will learn to add elevator to flaps to maintain a smooth landing approach.

It works!
Very well said. The only thing missing is crow, which is not really needed.
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Old May 04, 2011, 05:41 PM
Drifting off the reservation..
JumpySticks's Avatar
USA, LA, Broussard
Joined Jan 2011
2,296 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ci_phon View Post
HowD howD!


If I may...

Myy RP just didn't want to stay up! -Scott
I'm betting You will find days and locations where your RP does not want to come down!

We know you had thermals. Where there are thermals there is also sink. It was also late in the day and as you say, cooling. A lot working against you there.

It does take some work to get the CG right, and it's different for every plane, so measurements, weights and other CG advice are nearly useless. It's that glue they use to put the plane together. This is definately not done by machine, it's done by Chinese laborers and the glue is not applied the same for any plane. What you have is a unique sailplane!
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Old May 05, 2011, 02:20 AM
MB326 Dino Driver
Macchi326Driver's Avatar
Newcastle, NSW Australia
Joined Dec 2006
80 Posts
heya guys,... i have gone through this thread so many times,.. well all 240 post of it now i am about to buy the battery for mine,.. just wondering how big a battery you guys are running,.. or just sticking to what is reccomended?? im running the stock setup Servo/motor and esc wise,... and going to run a AR6200 Rx,.. any advice would be great,..
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Old May 05, 2011, 04:58 AM
Gravity is patient............
Joined Mar 2006
1,908 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcatdriver14 View Post
heya guys,... i have gone through this thread so many times,.. well all 240 post of it now i am about to buy the battery for mine,.. just wondering how big a battery you guys are running,.. or just sticking to what is reccomended?? im running the stock setup Servo/motor and esc wise,... and going to run a AR6200 Rx,.. any advice would be great,..
I'm running a 3s 1750mah 45c lipo from here:

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...C-111V-1750mAh

It has the advantage of fitting tightly in the foam and getting the weight just right when pushed all the way back. (I prefer the cg at 77mm instead of stock.) I did have to remove the stock battery strap, but that was awful/a pain to deal with anyway.
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