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Old Oct 09, 2011, 09:17 PM
Drifting off the reservation..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptondave View Post
Moving the cg is emphatically NOT the way to fight the nose-up problem. Both the RE Radian and the Pro exhibit this unfortunate trait, ant it has been the cause of numerous crashes. It can be corrected by increasing the down-thrust offset in the motor mount or by an elevator-throttle mix. Most people prefer the latter because it is easier to do and is infinitely variable.
Or just use the control stick.
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Old Oct 09, 2011, 09:29 PM
Dixie Normious
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Im doing this!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTfr-...el_video_title
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 06:51 AM
Ready, Post, Aim
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Originally Posted by JumpySticks View Post
Or just use the control stick.
In the couple OPP flights I had on twister's RP I was just moving elevator forward as I was moving throttle. The battery was already forward so not much more to go with it. I think he has it out this AM celebrating Columbus Day and o think he is adding some throttle mix to it

Maybe a slight change to thrust angle might be a fix ... because I know I had to lay in a lot of down elevator to keep it level ... seems like that is going to get all draggy which I assume is not something one wants on a glider
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 07:49 AM
Jack
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You cannot add enough down angle on the motor on a glider to keep the plane climbing in a level attitude at high throttle, it just will not work. I have a lot of experience with that on powered flight planes and had to learn the hard way that gliders and powered flight planes are apples and oranges on this.

I added a typical amount of down thrust and right thrust to a couple of gliders as an experiment and, while it tames the climbing behavior a little at low throttle and for small speed increases, it will not stop the steep climbing behavior at higher throttle.

The change in behavior on a non-glider is that with the down thrust the plane will not pitch it's nose up and go into a steep climb. Instead it will increase speed, that increases the lift, and the plane transitions to a climb while the fuselage remains level (little or no pitch change).

But on a glider the lower wing loading and increase in speed and lift is just too much for the down thrust to compensate for. The nose pitches up and elevator has to be used if the CG is right.

The gliders I tried thrust angle on were flat nosed and had outrunners mounted on the firewall. It is easy to adjust the angle on those. Imagine trying to add much or any to a Radian or almost in other glider and it becomes more complicated. Even ugly.

Using the elevator, either manually or with throttle/elevator mixing is really the only practical way to deal with it.

If you want to fly around with a glider that flies like a non-glider you need to have a badly misplaced CG, full time up elevator trim, and a "lot* of down thrust. And as soon as you transition from power to glide you'll have to hold some amount of constant up elevator to get the best glide.

Jack
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 08:43 AM
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My experience is a bit different than Jack's. It has always been my practice on powered models to use down-thrust to achieve a condition in which the plane accelerates with little or no pitch change when power is applied. It is not fully effective on the Radian but has tamed the tendency considerably. It is important to me because I fly in an area where there is not a lot of thermal activity and have to use the motor to search for lift, or just to putter around. It makes flying the Radian more comfortable and I see no down-side to it.
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 08:58 AM
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sounds logical.. forward elevator in climbing worked.. I am sure he is not looking to eliminate climb on application of power, just mitigate the stand on tail component. I know Twister is at the field so hopefully he is going to come back with reports of happiness. gorgeous day setting up with little wind and highs near 80* with sun... should have a nice thermal fest over the concrete runway. if I keep stealing his plane to test fly it I am sure one will be in my future as well
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 11:55 AM
Old Prop Buster
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United States, CA, Grass Valley
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote: (partial)
I think the best way to get a "perfectly balanced" glider is to do a dive test as it is described here:

http://www.polecataero.com/handlaunchu/cg-location

That lets you find the aft most neutrally-stable CG location and then you can adjust the CG forward in small amounts until the plane recovers from the dive the way you prefer.

It is important to read that whole article. It is not telling you where your CG should always be, it is telling you how to find the neutral CG location and it explains the pros and cons of then adjusting it forward a little at a time to suit your flying preferences. You can tell when you have attained that by the way the plane self recovers from a momentary dive.

Jackerbes:
Thanks, I just got my RP yesterday and was going out for my maiden today, what good timing. It just started to rain so I hit the computer instead.
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 03:29 PM
Jack
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Good luck with it when you get it out there!

I think it is a good process for learning about glider flying. I was fumbling around until I got that sorted out. I did it on a calm day and each time I landed to move the battery pack and make a CG adjustment, I would also recenter the elevator and also reset my TX trim to the center. After I got the CG right, the elevator was also centered and it was much easier to see the effect of a click or two of up or down elevator on the glide.

After I got the CG right, when I launched I could add a little elevator trim to get a nice hands off glide into the wind glide for that day's winds. But the CG was always the same. As the winds picked up I needed to add more down elevator to keep it driving into the wind.

I lived in The City in the mid 60's and used to go up to Rough and Ready and Grass Valley occasionally. I had some wonderful times up there boon docking up around the old gold mines and stuff, wonderful area. Then the draft board got me...

I was a Californian until I moved to Maine from Sonoma in 2001. No regrets though.

Jack
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 09:06 PM
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I am just wondering if anyone here has used or uses the free RC Sim called RC Desk Pilot? I use it to and I really like it. In the download section I happened to find the Radian and Radian Pro and they seem to be fairly accurate in flight as compared to the real ones, at least for the Radian Pro. and thatís because the RP is the only plane I have at the moment. I do like flying the Radian in the sim and I am considering getting a real Radian. I just thought toss this info. out there.

P.S. A few posts back some people were talking about flying in windy conditions. I was flying my RP last week, had at least 4 flights and on the 5th flight the wind was picking up bad so as I was bring the RP in and boom, wind shear! About 8 feet off the ground the bird banked sharp and did a one point landing! The fuselage ended up in 3 parts, it was beyond repair. I had to break out the extra fuselage. The RP does not like the wind and neither does my skill level. But I love this plane!
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 10:52 PM
VOLTS > AMPS
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Joined Jul 2011
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Can someone explain to me that down wind turn that was mentioned a page back? Its kinda late so I am not totally coherent but I have seen down wind turns mentioned other places in the sail plane areas.

What is the big deal with them? If you maintain speed it should be no different then upwind turns. If wind is blowing left to right, the right is downwind and the left is upwind (correct)?
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by stgdz View Post
Can someone explain to me that down wind turn that was mentioned a page back?
There is a popular misconception that down wind turns are dangerous because they can cause the plane to lose airspeed and stall. It is a false notion because the plane flies in a moving mass of air, and there is no "down wind" or "up wind" as far as it is concerned. You do not have to speed up to maintain airspeed. The concept applies to all aircraft, not just sail planes.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 12:02 AM
VOLTS > AMPS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptondave View Post
There is a popular misconception that down wind turns are dangerous because they can cause the plane to lose airspeed and stall. It is a false notion because the plane flies in a moving mass of air, and there is no "down wind" or "up wind" as far as it is concerned. You do not have to speed up to maintain airspeed. The concept applies to all aircraft, not just sail planes.
Thats just bonkers, I just couldn't figure out what others were talking about.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 08:17 AM
Drifting off the reservation..
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The dreaded "downwind turn" argument rears its ugly head! Get out the popcorn...
The downwind turn is an issue for rc pilots because we fly the plane from a stationary position on the ground, and the air through which the plane is flying is moving relative to us. Unless you have airspeed telemtry that you can look at while flying, you have to mentally add the wind speed to your ground speed to maintain the same airspeed going downwind. If you don't, you will likely lose a lot of altitude (or stall) going into the downwind turn. That's all.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 12:57 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by JumpySticks View Post
The dreaded "downwind turn" argument rears its ugly head! Get out the popcorn...
The downwind turn is an issue for rc pilots because we fly the plane from a stationary position on the ground, and the air through which the plane is flying is moving relative to us. Unless you have airspeed telemtry that you can look at while flying, you have to mentally add the wind speed to your ground speed to maintain the same airspeed going downwind. If you don't, you will likely lose a lot of altitude (or stall) going into the downwind turn. That's all.
All you have to do is not try to maintain the same groundspeed while going downwind. In other words: DO NOT reduce power on the downwind leg. Very simple concept.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpySticks View Post
The dreaded "downwind turn" argument rears its ugly head! Get out the popcorn...
The downwind turn is an issue for rc pilots because we fly the plane from a stationary position on the ground, and the air through which the plane is flying is moving relative to us. Unless you have airspeed telemtry that you can look at while flying, you have to mentally add the wind speed to your ground speed to maintain the same airspeed going downwind. If you don't, you will likely lose a lot of altitude (or stall) going into the downwind turn. That's all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry__ View Post
All you have to do is not try to maintain the same groundspeed while going downwind. In other words: DO NOT reduce power on the downwind leg. Very simple concept.
While the above covers most of it, there's a bit more in the details. The craft has mass, and will not change direction and/or speed without consuming energy. With a glider that energy comes from only two sources, altitude (potential energy) and motion (kinetic energy). Motion in this case may or may not be directly related to airspeed.

The energy required to change the direction of the craft's travel must come from somewhere, it's not free. Where does this energy come from? You could drop the nose a bit (trading off potential energy for airspeed), raise the nose (further reducing the craft's airspeed) or do nothing (usually slightly reducing both altitude and airspeed depending on elevator input entering the turn).

The requirement for additional energy and loss of airspeed due to a sudden tail wind can cause serious problems. This happens easier with R/C craft, because the tail wind is often a larger fraction of the craft's airspeed.

Setup:
10 MPH wind out of the North
Landing area runs North and South
RP is flying slowly, less than 20MPH, entering landing approach pattern.

Before entering the landing pattern you're flying from East to West about to cross the landing area. Airspeed 20MPH, ground speed 20MPH. As you turn South (downwind) after crossing the landing area the craft's airspeed will suddenly reduce to 10MPH (20 MPH airspeed - 10MPH tail wind). The craft doesn't instantly increase to 30MPH ground speed and 20MPH airspeed, because it has mass.

Over the next few seconds the craft will increase its airspeed due to decreased drag (lower airspeed creates less drag) if the craft's attitude is maintained. However, during and after the turn the tail wind reduces the craft's airspeed. During this period it's easier for the pilot to allow the craft's airspeed to drop below the craft's stall airspeed.

It's easier for this to occur than you might think, because the wings are under additional load during the turn due to non-vertical lift, G-forces generated during the turn (energy expended changing the craft's motion) and the temporary loss of airspeed due to a tail wind.

If the wind speed is a large fraction of the craft's airspeed it's easy for the craft's airspeed to drop below the craft's stall speed. The RP flies slowly making it easy for a light breeze to become a problem. With an airspeed of 20MPH, a 10MPH tail wind reduces the craft's airspeed to only 10MPH until it recovers airspeed lost during the turn and to a tail wind.

Pilots make this situation worse by noticing their craft pick up ground speed as it starts the downwind leg and use up elevator to attempt to slow down. It appears to increase its speed during the downwind leg, but it's not safe to raise the nose to slow down.

This is a serious problem, because R/C craft fly slowly making even light tail winds an issue and their pilots cannot determine the craft's airspeed. Unlike full-scale, we don't have an airspeed indicator and cannot feel and hear the craft's reaction to airspeed changes.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 03:28 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
Gerry__'s Avatar
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Originally Posted by LizardMan View Post
While the above covers most of it, there's a bit more in the details. The craft has mass, and will not change direction and/or speed without consuming energy. With a glider that energy comes from only two sources, altitude (potential energy) and motion (kinetic energy). Motion in this case may or may not be directly related to airspeed.

The energy required to change the direction of the craft's travel must come from somewhere, it's not free. Where does this energy come from? You could drop the nose a bit (trading off potential energy for airspeed), raise the nose (further reducing the craft's airspeed) or do nothing (usually slightly reducing both altitude and airspeed depending on elevator input entering the turn).

The requirement for additional energy and loss of airspeed due to a sudden tail wind can cause serious problems. This happens easier with R/C craft, because the tail wind is often a larger fraction of the craft's airspeed.

Setup:
10 MPH wind out of the North
Landing area runs North and South
RP is flying slowly, less than 20MPH, entering landing approach pattern.

Before entering the landing pattern you're flying from East to West about to cross the landing area. Airspeed 20MPH, ground speed 20MPH. As you turn South (downwind) after crossing the landing area the craft's airspeed will suddenly reduce to 10MPH (20 MPH airspeed - 10MPH tail wind). The craft doesn't instantly increase to 30MPH ground speed and 20MPH airspeed, because it has mass.

Over the next few seconds the craft will increase its airspeed due to decreased drag (lower airspeed creates less drag) if the craft's attitude is maintained. However, during and after the turn the tail wind reduces the craft's airspeed. During this period it's easier for the pilot to allow the craft's airspeed to drop below the craft's stall airspeed.

It's easier for this to occur than you might think, because the wings are under additional load during the turn due to non-vertical lift, G-forces generated during the turn (energy expended changing the craft's motion) and the temporary loss of airspeed due to a tail wind.

If the wind speed is a large fraction of the craft's airspeed it's easy for the craft's airspeed to drop below the craft's stall speed. The RP flies slowly making it easy for a light breeze to become a problem. With an airspeed of 20MPH, a 10MPH tail wind reduces the craft's airspeed to only 10MPH until it recovers airspeed lost during the turn and to a tail wind.

Pilots make this situation worse by noticing their craft pick up ground speed as it starts the downwind leg and use up elevator to attempt to slow down. It appears increase its speed during the downwind leg, but it's not safe to raise the nose to slow down.

This is a serious problem, because R/C craft fly slowly making even light tail winds an issue and their pilots cannot determine the craft's airspeed. Unlike full-scale, we don't have an airspeed indicator and cannot feel and hear the craft's reaction to airspeed changes.
Completely wrong. The tailwind does NOT reduce the airspeed. The only thing that can reduce the airspeed is drag, which you can counter by adding thrust, if you have a motor, or trading altitude for airspeed if you're gliding.

Even a sudden increase in the tailwind's speed will have little effect on a model with relatively low mass and inertia.

Windspeed and direction only effects landing, takeoff and navigation, it has no effect on aerodynamics.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 04:15 PM
Crashing into the sky!
jackosmeister's Avatar
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Go fly on the slope, Turn plane back towards slope and look what happens to your controls

If windpseed has no effect on airspeed, why do real planes take off and land into the wind? Just for the fun of it?

I love some of the crazy physics theory's on rcgroups
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 04:21 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
Gerry__'s Avatar
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Originally Posted by jackosmeister View Post
Go fly on the slope, Turn plane back towards slope and look what happens to your controls

If windpseed has no effect on airspeed, why do real planes take off and land into the wind? Just for the fun of it?

I love some of the crazy physics theory's on rcgroups
Windspeed/direction has no effect on airspeed. Planes takeoff and land into wind because that gives the lowest possible groundspeed for those phases of flight.

Like I said:
Quote:
Windspeed and direction only effects landing, takeoff and navigation, it has no effect on aerodynamics.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 04:23 PM
Crashing into the sky!
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Lowest possible groundspeed, with enough airspeed over the wings too fly


Say we have a plane that needs 200 knots air speed to fly.

If we have 0 wind, the plane needs to hit 200knots on the run way to rotate. ( 200 = 200 )
If we have a 100knot tailwind, plane needs to hit 300knots ground speed to rotate and fly. ( 200 = 300 -100)
If we have a 100knot headwind, plane needs to hit 100knots ground speed to rotate and fly. (200 = 100 + 100)

Why is it any different in the air than to when the plane is on the ground? the planes wings dont give a hoot about groundspeed.

The wing are moving in a moving mass off air. If the planes ground speed is 100knots, and it has a 100knot tailwind, the airspeed over the wings is 0 knots, plane drops.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 04:27 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by jackosmeister View Post
Lowest possible groundspeed, with enough airspeed over the wings too fly
Exactly. The stall airspeed remains the same whether you are taking off into wind, or with a tailwind. The only thing the wind is effecting is the groundspeed at which the plane takes off. Windspeed and direction only effects landing, takeoff and navigation, it has no effect on aerodynamics.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 04:38 PM
Crashing into the sky!
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So your saying the laws of physics change once airborn?


I really suggest you go try slopesoaring and test your theory. Flying on the slope exaggerates the effects a lot makes it very obvious.

Flying away from the slope into the wind, lots of lift due to airspeed as well as lift from the slope itself, lots of control response due to airspeed over flight controls. Very little ground speed (comparatively)

Flying towards the slope, away from the wind, All the lift from the airfoil dissapears, only slope lift remains, VERY mushy controls due to very low airspeed, Very high ground speed (comparatively)
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jackosmeister View Post
So your saying the laws of physics change once airborn?
No I'm not saying that. I think you need to go and have a little rethink.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 04:54 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackosmeister View Post
Lowest possible groundspeed, with enough airspeed over the wings too fly


Say we have a plane that needs 200 knots air speed to fly.

If we have 0 wind, the plane needs to hit 200knots on the run way to rotate. ( 200 = 200 )
If we have a 100knot tailwind, plane needs to hit 300knots ground speed to rotate and fly. ( 200 = 300 -100)
If we have a 100knot headwind, plane needs to hit 100knots ground speed to rotate and fly. (200 = 100 + 100)

Why is it any different in the air than to when the plane is on the ground? the planes wings dont give a hoot about groundspeed.

The wing are moving in a moving mass off air. If the planes ground speed is 100knots, and it has a 100knot tailwind, the airspeed over the wings is 0 knots, plane drops.
In reply to your edit:

Very good examples. So you agree that the airspeed required for the plane in your example to take off remains the same (200knts) regardless of whether it is taking off into wind or with a tailwind? And further you agree that the only thing the wind is effecting is the groundspeed required for the plane to reach the airspeed required for flight?

In other words:
Quote:
Windspeed and direction only effects landing, takeoff and navigation, it has no effect on aerodynamics.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackosmeister View Post
So your saying the laws of physics change once airborn?


I really suggest you go try slopesoaring and test your theory. Flying on the slope exaggerates the effects a lot makes it very obvious.

Flying away from the slope into the wind, lots of lift due to airspeed as well as lift from the slope itself, lots of control response due to airspeed over flight controls. Very little ground speed (comparatively)

Flying towards the slope, away from the wind, All the lift from the airfoil dissapears, only slope lift remains, VERY mushy controls due to very low airspeed, Very high ground speed (comparatively)
In reply to your other edit:

Completely and utterly wrong.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 04:59 PM
Crashing into the sky!
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Quote:
it has no effect on aerodynamics.
That is where we disagree, it could be entirely due to the definition of "aerodynamics"
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 05:00 PM
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Received my Contour HD camera today and attached it to the plane. I just ground down a flat area in the fuse just behind the canopy, then glued in the flat mount with some white gorilla glue. It feels pretty solid. The camera attaches to the mount with that velcro like setup where there are a bunch of plastic "pins" that interlock with each other. I guess we'll see how it works in flight. I'm just waiting on some good weather to fly now.

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Old Oct 11, 2011, 05:02 PM
Crashing into the sky!
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Quote:
Completely and utterly wrong.
Hahaha

So if we put a runway sticking out from the top of the slope into the wind, then physics would revert back to normal?
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 05:08 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by jackosmeister View Post
That is where we disagree, it could be entirely due to the definition of "aerodynamics"
No, you're a bit confused about what is going on. When you takeoff into a headwind the climb angle is increased. Inversely, if you took off with a tailwind, the climb angle would be reduced.

You are confusing an increase in climb angle with an increase in climb rate, when actually the rate of climb is the same. This is a misconception that confuses many RC'ers.
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 05:13 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackosmeister View Post
Hahaha

So if we put a runway sticking out from the top of the slope into the wind, then physics would revert back to normal?
No, no. You need to address/defend your point, which is:
Quote:
Flying towards the slope, away from the wind, All the lift from the airfoil dissapears...
Can you please explain how the lift is lost in your theory?
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Old Oct 11, 2011, 05:24 PM
Crashing into the sky!
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In exactly the same way as the plane on the runway example above.
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