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Old Sep 30, 2011, 07:30 AM
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France
Joined Sep 2011
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Really hot today, but with a bit of wind. Hope I will take some time to fly.


BTW here is a general view of the new layout (yes the lipo is present )


It's here:


Closer view of the servo part with the RX.


ESC part (quite empty


And my 5minutes made balancer:
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Old Sep 30, 2011, 11:00 AM
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United States, NY, Buffalo
Joined Mar 2002
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i had ZERO drama with CG. with a 3s 2200 she balanced fine on the factory CG marks on the wings. it just seems odd that so many of you are having so much drama trying to balance yours. mine had a bad crash and is sitting waiting on me to try a repair. the wing is a 4 piece now.
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Old Sep 30, 2011, 11:44 AM
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Ireland, Cork
Joined Oct 2010
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Originally Posted by doomracing View Post
i had ZERO drama with CG. with a 3s 2200 she balanced fine on the factory CG marks on the wings. it just seems odd that so many of you are having so much drama trying to balance yours. mine had a bad crash and is sitting waiting on me to try a repair. the wing is a 4 piece now.
What you need is some
cock tail sticks / white Gorilla Glue and masking tape for the repair , once glued and set ,,,then tape over the whole wing with fiber tape..
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Old Sep 30, 2011, 12:35 PM
Not a newbie anymore..
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Originally Posted by doomracing View Post
i had ZERO drama with CG. with a 3s 2200 she balanced fine on the factory CG marks on the wings. it just seems odd that so many of you are having so much drama trying to balance yours. mine had a bad crash and is sitting waiting on me to try a repair. the wing is a 4 piece now.

Same here..

Using 2200mAh Li-po , CG set at 70mm ..

Nose is heavy , but still flys well...

.
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Old Oct 05, 2011, 10:46 AM
CURIOSITY Has Landed!
Fugitive_Bill's Avatar
Sydney, Australia
Joined Jul 2005
1,158 Posts
Battery 2s vs 3s in Phoenix...

From day one I've been using a Turnigy 2450mAh 2s 30-40c battery (which I ordered by mistake, I thought I ordered a 3s), so I decided to use that battery anyway after reading all the horror stories of people melting the plastic nose on 3s batteries and/or running the motor for too long - Even though I've done my best to modify the motor mounting so that the motor can't melt the plastic too easily.

I wanted to use 3s and I promised myself and my flying buddy that I'll be careful not to run the motor too long, but in the end we agreed that I'm too stupid and would try to get to 1000' in 30 seconds and end up melting the thing or burning something out, so we stuck with the 2s battery.
Still, I'm REALLY temped to fly with a 3s, I want to see if the glider can go a decent vertical, but I don't trust myself not to run the motor for too long.

Here's a picture of the batteries, I like the 2s battery, it's nice flat shape and fits in the glider nicely.
(Note I've marked the servo leads VERY clearly so I NEVER make the mistake of plugging the Ailerons and Flaps in around the wrong way again. And don't get me started on doing control surface checks before flying, the damned first time I forget to check and they were plugged in wrong. It's a long story)

Also note in one photo of the 'test' gear, I have 2 servo covers which I'm cutting up and going to put on the fuselage motor vents to try and stream some more air flow through. What do ya think?

While I was taking the photo's of the 2s and 3s batteries for this post, I thought I'd do a few AMP/WATT/RPM/TEMP tests using the two batteries for everyone's reference/information. (FYI and mine so to speak) Hope it's of SOME use!

Here are the Results: (Using stock Prop, Motor and ESC)
Each motor run was for 20 seconds on fully charged, near new batteries (with a break of 20 mins between tests to cool motor to ambient temp)

Battery:............2450mAh 2s 30-40c (155 grams).....2200mAh 3s 30-70c (190 grams)
Amps:...............15.5.......................... ................25.7
Watts:..............119.1......................... ...............290.2
RPM:................5800.......................... ................6930
Motor Temp(c):..60.5.................................... .......82.5

NOTES: RPM and TEMP
RPM - Not to be trusted. I had to turn off the fluo lights and use a torch. Even trying with incandescent lamp was giving weird readings. I should do tests during the day rather than 2am in the morning!

TEMP - Not to be trusted. I wasn't checking temps quick enough, plus I could smell melting plastic after the 3s run. I left it at WOT for too long try to get a decent RPM reading in torch light, I just hope there is no damage - as the motor feels a bit tighter now. When I finally got a reading of 82.5c and that was enough hurt my finger I was NOT impressed, so I think I'm going to stick with 2s battery or be careful with throttle settings and run time.

In fact I think the whole exercise was a failure to prove too much.

B!LL!
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Old Oct 05, 2011, 12:08 PM
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skyhawk newbie's Avatar
Ireland, Cork
Joined Oct 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugitive_Bill View Post
Battery 2s vs 3s in Phoenix...

From day one I've been using a Turnigy 2450mAh 2s 30-40c battery (which I ordered by mistake, I thought I ordered a 3s), so I decided to use that battery anyway after reading all the horror stories of people melting the plastic nose on 3s batteries and/or running the motor for too long - Even though I've done my best to modify the motor mounting so that the motor can't melt the plastic too easily.

I wanted to use 3s and I promised myself and my flying buddy that I'll be careful not to run the motor too long, but in the end we agreed that I'm too stupid and would try to get to 1000' in 30 seconds and end up melting the thing or burning something out, so we stuck with the 2s battery.
Still, I'm REALLY temped to fly with a 3s, I want to see if the glider can go a decent vertical, but I don't trust myself not to run the motor for too long.

Here's a picture of the batteries, I like the 2s battery, it's nice flat shape and fits in the glider nicely.
(Note I've marked the servo leads VERY clearly so I NEVER make the mistake of plugging the Ailerons and Flaps in around the wrong way again. And don't get me started on doing control surface checks before flying, the damned first time I forget to check and they were plugged in wrong. It's a long story)

Also note in one photo of the 'test' gear, I have 2 servo covers which I'm cutting up and going to put on the fuselage motor vents to try and stream some more air flow through. What do ya think?

While I was taking the photo's of the 2s and 3s batteries for this post, I thought I'd do a few AMP/WATT/RPM/TEMP tests using the two batteries for everyone's reference/information. (FYI and mine so to speak) Hope it's of SOME use!

Here are the Results: (Using stock Prop, Motor and ESC)
Each motor run was for 20 seconds on fully charged, near new batteries (with a break of 20 mins between tests to cool motor to ambient temp)

Battery:............2450mAh 2s 30-40c (155 grams).....2200mAh 3s 30-70c (190 grams)
Amps:...............15.5.......................... ................25.7
Watts:..............119.1......................... ...............290.2
RPM:................5800.......................... ................6930
Motor Temp(c):..60.5.................................... .......82.5

NOTES: RPM and TEMP
RPM - Not to be trusted. I had to turn off the fluo lights and use a torch. Even trying with incandescent lamp was giving weird readings. I should do tests during the day rather than 2am in the morning!

TEMP - Not to be trusted. I wasn't checking temps quick enough, plus I could smell melting plastic after the 3s run. I left it at WOT for too long try to get a decent RPM reading in torch light, I just hope there is no damage - as the motor feels a bit tighter now. When I finally got a reading of 82.5c and that was enough hurt my finger I was NOT impressed, so I think I'm going to stick with 2s battery or be careful with throttle settings and run time.

In fact I think the whole exercise was a failure to prove too much.

B!LL!
Hi Bill,
easyest way to stop to much heat melting the firewall is to fit a piece of plywood between motor and firewall ...

Stock motor and ESC , I'd recommend you change... Fit a UBEC ( a must do )

Extra cooling , Look through the thread , a very good idea that was posted ,was using some plastic tea spoons as air scoups ( great idea, never seen it done before)...


Sean
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Old Oct 05, 2011, 02:29 PM
CURIOSITY Has Landed!
Fugitive_Bill's Avatar
Sydney, Australia
Joined Jul 2005
1,158 Posts
Thanks Sean, Yup that's all being sorted or being sorted...

1/ Ply firewall mod from supplied for slope soarer spinner. (Pic1)
2/ Air scoops made from Chinese soup spoon, spoon handle or servo cover. (Pic2,3,4) (or perhaps from 12mm tube cut diagonal)
3/ Turnigy 3Amp (max 5A) BEC. (Pic5)
4/ Supply of new and used motors for when the stock one quits. (Pic6)

But I think being nice to the stock motor using it on 2s or 3s only using short WOT runs it should last a while.

B!LL
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Old Oct 05, 2011, 02:41 PM
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United States, FL, Miami
Joined Jul 2010
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Watch for noise on that BEC affecting your Rx. If you can, try moving it away from the receiver if possible.
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Old Oct 05, 2011, 02:43 PM
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skyhawk newbie's Avatar
Ireland, Cork
Joined Oct 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugitive_Bill View Post
Thanks Sean, Yup that's all being sorted or being sorted...

1/ Ply firewall mod from supplied for slope soarer spinner. (Pic1)
2/ Air scoops made from Chinese soup spoon, spoon handle or servo cover. (Pic2,3,4) (or perhaps from 12mm tube cut diagonal)
3/ Turnigy 3Amp (max 5A) BEC. (Pic5)
4/ Supply of new and used motors for when the stock one quits. (Pic6)

But I think being nice to the stock motor using it on 2s or 3s only using short WOT runs it should last a while.

B!LL
Looks like your sorted...
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Old Oct 05, 2011, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by salkeld17 View Post
Watch for noise on that BEC affecting your Rx. If you can, try moving it away from the receiver if possible.
Well spotted..

Yeah... you wanna have at least 5cm apart , same with Rx and Sat reciever,

the further away from each other the better...

Point antenna's one Horizontal , one Vertical . . . .

Sean..
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Old Oct 05, 2011, 08:51 PM
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Australia, New South Wales, Sydney
Joined Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugitive_Bill View Post
...When I finally got a reading of 82.5c and that was enough hurt my finger I was NOT impressed, so I think I'm going to stick with 2s battery or be careful with throttle settings and run time.

In fact I think the whole exercise was a failure to prove too much.
On the contrary. I think you're very methodical and it's certainly useful to have the numbers. A few thoughts:

20 or so seconds of static WOT on a bench is torture for the motor - far worse than anything it experiences in the air. There's no forward motion to decrease the prop's AoA, so the motor is working extra-hard to keep the prop rotating. A second or two of that sort of treatment is sometimes unavoidable during launching (are you forced to launch at WOT on 2S?), but twenty seconds with a borderline overworked setup like the P2K's is perhaps hazardous.

To compound the issue, there's even less cooling than usual. The prop doesn't push all that much air down near its base (lower tangential speed), so without the forward motion of the plane the amount of air entering those cooling ducts on the side is less than normal.

IMHO, the ducts themselves are close to useless as far as the motor is concerned, even while the plane is in flight. Your scoops are very clever and they probably help, but I suspect the angle of the air jet being force-fed into the fuselage would prevent it from doing all that much for the motor right up at the front.

A ported spinner keeps the motor significantly cooler. Unfortunately, it requires a fair amount of reworking and redrilling at the front, to open holes in the firewall for the air to reach the motor.

Where do you fly the Phoenix out of curiosity? I've had to drive out quite a ways since there are no suitable fields anywhere near me.
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Old Oct 06, 2011, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by H2SO4 View Post
A ported spinner keeps the motor significantly cooler. Unfortunately, it requires a fair amount of reworking and redrilling at the front, to open holes in the firewall for the air to reach the motor..
The Firewall is weak enough as it is, without drilling breather holes into it...


It's a Glider , Not a Hotliner . .

Fit

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idproduct=8139

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=2165

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idproduct=5565

9x6 prop ,you'll get the best out of the motor,but hobbyking only sell a 9x5..


..
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Old Oct 06, 2011, 03:23 AM
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Australia, New South Wales, Sydney
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Originally Posted by skyhawk newbie View Post
The Firewall is weak enough as it is, without drilling breather holes into it...
Agreed. But once a doubler plate or or other suitable reinforcement is added, the weakening effect of the holes is not noticable IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyhawk newbie View Post
It's a Glider , Not a Hotliner . .
It gets quite "warm" with a bigger prop and motor. I enjoy gliding, briefly, before letting 'er rip
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Old Oct 06, 2011, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by H2SO4 View Post
Agreed. But once a doubler plate or or other suitable reinforcement is added, the weakening effect of the holes is not noticable IMHO.



It gets quite "warm" with a bigger prop and motor. I enjoy gliding, briefly, before letting 'er rip
True..If you reinforce the firewall,you could then drill breather holes ..

Then use a Turbo Spinner ,to cool every thing down..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HFS45x4-0-...item336bd33bf8

I mainly Slope Soar my Pheonix,but some times bring it up to the club field and zip around there and with the 2836 motor / 9x6 prop it is quite warm at WOT...

.
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Old Oct 06, 2011, 10:37 AM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined Jul 2005
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Andre,

All very points, I'm more or less aware of each;

I hate static running a motor under load (or even free spinning) for more than say 5-10 seconds - as it will over heat very quick as you say the motor is under much more load than it would be if it was moving through the air. I guess it would be similar to spinning the wheels on a front wheel drive car on skid pan with the hand brake on.

I was thinking of doing the test for only 10-15 seconds, but thought that would not provide enough info about how hot it was getting. Believe me the 30 second run on 3s and fumbling in the dark with the torch and the tacho was extremely painful and felt more like 10 minutes and the whole time all I could think of was the pain the motor must be starting to get in.

Then when I almost burnt my finger on the hot motor, I knew I had been foolish for such a long loaded static run on a system that is dodgy to begin with - ie: a fuselage nose that can melt easily, a cheap motor and esc, AND the NOISE AT 2.00 AM!!
(My shed/garage/workshop is rather close to the next neighbours bedroom window!)

Launching, I guess I give it 3/4 to WOT, as the static run time is very short when someone else is throwing it and I think there is little torque roll on the glider, particularly with that motor/prop/battery combo.
If I'm throwing it, (and I now generally use a TX strap on the DX6i or Turnigy 9X so I don't drop one of the damned things again and break another switch off! and use my chin to quickly ramp up the volume then turf it (the plane!), so the throttle generally ends up at WOT.
Agreed the stock 'cooling vents' are next to useless. Ducting air in using a spoon or the cut up servo covers is going help a little and again as you mention I was also toying with the idea of piping the incoming air flow up toward the motor using ~10mm of some type of tubing, but I can't be bothered doing that for now!

I've seen and thought about those hollow-point/headless spinners that can port some air through, but never really got around to really researching or sourcing them, mainly due to mods required to the already weak nose of the glider, but I guess it wouldn't really be that hard to stuck in and strengthen the thing right up like some else did earlier in this by using fine fibreglass and resin.

Regarding Salkeld17's mention of the Turnigy 5A UBEC being too close to the RX, I'll have too look into that as it has a ferrite coil on it and I thought those particular BEC's were low noise. The thing is, I've never had any control problems with the plane other than when I plugged the ailerons into the flaps - DoH - Arrghh!

As for Skyhawk Newbie's mention of the Orange RX, I recall plugging an AR6200 satellite into and it and from memory I don't think it worked. I'll have to look into that as well, but I only have one AR6200 and I'd rather have that in my current prized plane, a P-51 Mustang, well at least until I've finished converting the Turnigy 9X TX over FrSky TX DHT TX module and D8R-II RX with Telemetry then I'll use the 9X on all my models as I don't really trust the DX6i and I'd rather go with the latest technology of the FrSky gear.

My biggest problem is, and I'll bet all of us here have this same problem, which is always having about 10 projects going at once, be it building, modding and of course REPAIRING! LOL.

Flying Field: I fly at PEMAC (it's on the RCGroups Map) it's only a new club that we formed four years ago, but has come a long way and things just keep getting better and better by the week. Located at Emu Plains, near Penrith.

According to the RCGroups 'Distance from you' you are only 21km away from me, I live Prospect, half way between Parramatta and Penrith. So possibly you are close enough to Penrith to pay us visit sometime at the field sometime which would be great, or even join the club if your interested.(!?

Website: http://whlsites.com/pemacflyers
Forum: http://whlsites.com/forum/index.php or link the forum from the PEMAC Website.
If you (or anyone here) happens to decide to join the PEMAC Forum, PM me here on RCG and I'll approve the account straight away, as I've set it so it's not automatic approval and has to be physically be done by an Admin to keep spammers and trouble makers out!

Cheers,
B!LL!
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