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Old Aug 20, 2012, 09:26 PM
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Thornleigh - 20k N of Sydney,N.S.W.,AUSTRALIA
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Originally Posted by Fugitive_Bill View Post
LBD: Good luck with the P2K, sounds like your making sure it's set up correctly.
You'll love the Phoenix, I know I love mine, almost as much as my Graupner Cirrus 3000!
Where do you fly at?
-B!LL!
G'day Bill ... Thanks for your positive input for the P2K.
I fly ... when I can ... with the HEMFC at Fagan Park at Galston, NW Sydney.
Not the best for a free flying sailplane due to very strict boundary restrictions.
Very good field for general electric sport types though.
Daffy.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 02:15 PM
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Hopefully my new Turnigy motor I ordered for my Phoenix will get to me this weekend. It's been almost two weeks since I ordered it.
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Old Aug 23, 2012, 03:35 AM
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Australia, VIC, Chadstone
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The strong winds died down here for a few hours yesterday so I rushed out to the local soccer field with a couple of LiPo's in hand.

I'm using FrSky telemetry gear with open9x to display the altitude (as well as other data), but it can also give adjustable audio cues for the lift. The Vario sounds were good enough to help me find and stay in some lift today.

The lift was nothing spectacular but for someone new to finding thermals it was still quite exciting.
Checkout 2:20 to 3:40 in the video below (Make sure Captions are switched on to see the Altitude and the Vertical rates):

Phoenix 2000 Glider - open9x Vario helps find some lift, finally!
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Old Aug 23, 2012, 04:18 AM
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Thornleigh - 20k N of Sydney,N.S.W.,AUSTRALIA
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G'day again
I know I said a couple of days ago that I'd give posting in this thread a rest, but thought it best to correct a few observations I made earlier about the P2K's fuselage.
I reckoned then that the fuselage I received in the ARF kit of parts had a thrust line that was UP rather than down, together with a fair degree of built in UP bias to the Tailpane's mounting platform.
However I've made a more accurate assessment of the fuselage, basing this on the fuselage's side elevation horizontal datum line actually being parallel to both the servo tray, and battery tray, measured from a line drawn through the screw holes used to mount them, and in line with the motor shaft's centre line.
Mea Culpa ... My original MkI eyeball assessment about the thrust line, and the tailplane setting in relation to this line was incorrect.
In fact the thrust line was virtually Zero, not having any measurable up thrust that was apparent when eyeballing the fuselage originally.
However this LBD still reckons, if possible some down thrust would be beneficial.
However there is still a definite +ve set to the tailplane mount although not as much as was thought, and which, I've noted, some P2K assemblers have corrected by simply packing up the LE ... About 2mm apparently seems about right, and is an easy fix.
Perhaps a little more, together with a similar amount under the wing's LE, would make the Phoenix's SIT in the air better too, rather than tail-low.

I've noted that some assemblers have used epoxy to bond some parts to the fuselage ... How did they get it to adhere to the plastic fuselage?

For those Aussies putting this model together but requiring a satisfactory glue to bond wood or anything else to the fuselage, I reckon Max-Bond, or similar, would work I reckon, despite its stickiness, and difficulty to apply in small amounts and thinly. The bond achieved when dry would be permanent and defy being separated.

I will also be undertaking a radical modification to the motor mount, scrapping all the parts from the kit.
I'll post about this after it's completed.
Daffy.
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Old Aug 23, 2012, 04:22 AM
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Portugal
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I've a spare wings for phoenix glider which I don't need.
It it the 1.6m wings that also can be extended to 2.6m using the central section.
Wings comes with all reinforcement: alu tubes and rods.

Wing plastic connector is included as well.


All new on box, never opened!


PM me if interested.


Thanks
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Old Aug 23, 2012, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maca55 View Post
I'm using FrSky telemetry gear with open9x to display the altitude (as well as other data), but it can also give adjustable audio cues for the lift. The Vario sounds were good enough to help me find and stay in some lift today.
Interesting... is the beeping with lift function avalaible with the screen integrated telemetry module? (as i will probably buy it and also dont want to mod more internally the Tx apart from the smartie board)
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Old Aug 23, 2012, 08:33 AM
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Australia, VIC, Chadstone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLT_GTI View Post
Interesting... is the beeping with lift function avalaible with the screen integrated telemetry module? (as i will probably buy it and also dont want to mod more internally the Tx apart from the smartie board)
I'm not using the FrSky display screen so I'm 100% sure of it's capabilities. I'm pretty sure answer is no, but then a again a future firmware upgrade from FrSky may add the Vario audio support if you're lucky.
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Old Aug 23, 2012, 09:57 AM
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Hi, LBD.

I don't have Phoenix and I can't tell you anything certain but the difficulty bonding to plastics and foams is often due to a mold release agent still being on the surface. When I have to bond most anything I: A. Clean thoroughly with rubbing alcohol. B. Sand the area. C. Clean it with alcohol again. A general purpose adhesive like epoxy will usually stick to most anything after this treatment but there are exceptions.

Another little tip. When trying to get a good idea about thrust lines I find it very helpful to mount the motor/engine with a prop or a paint stirring stick mounted. It greatly reduces the inherent limitations of the Eyeball Mk. 1

Cheers!
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Old Aug 23, 2012, 09:11 PM
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Thornleigh - 20k N of Sydney,N.S.W.,AUSTRALIA
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Originally Posted by peterlngh View Post
Hi, LBD.

I don't have Phoenix and I can't tell you anything certain but the difficulty bonding to plastics and foams is often due to a mold release agent still being on the surface. When I have to bond most anything I: A. Clean thoroughly with rubbing alcohol. B. Sand the area. C. Clean it with alcohol again. A general purpose adhesive like epoxy will usually stick to most anything after this treatment but there are exceptions.

Another little tip. When trying to get a good idea about thrust lines I find it very helpful to mount the motor/engine with a prop or a paint stirring stick mounted. It greatly reduces the inherent limitations of the Eyeball Mk. 1

Cheers!
G'day Peter ...
Thanks for your thoughts on glueing bits and pieces to this fantastic ... (sic) ... plastic P2K fuselage.
I know that Cyano doesn't work ... well it does temporarily ... but flakes off, or lets go, after a little while. Your idea to clean with de-natured alcohol and then lightly sand to roughen the surface to form a key is a good one for most none wooden surfaces (f/glass or metal) that need to either have wood glued to them, or even glued together.

(As an aside, even ply should be lightly sanded before glueing anything else to its surface ... This tip from a full size boat builder! )

However ... I'm wondering, for this type of plastic only, where wood or ply needs to be bonded to it, whether Contact Cement, thinned a little with General Purpose Automotive Thinners, and allowed to partially dry before joining, and then left to dry out, would work ?
Might give that a try on the inside of the fuselage, somewhere out of the way.

Your idea about checking motor thrust lines ... and not relying on the old faithful eyeball Mk I method ... ... is a good one.
I've used, I think, something similar to that, but which serves a Dual purpose.

Firstly, I use it for checking thrust lines ... although if you've mounted the motor bulkhead ... which in most cases is usually a separarate part ... into the fuselage correctly in the first place, then this is really just a double check.
You have no choice with the P2K though!, where the bulkhead comes moulded in, with any down and side thrust lines already included ... or not.

As noted in my earlier post, I intend to modify this on the P2K, with details to follow later.

The second use, and related to your hint, is to assist with mounting the motor to the bulkhead in the first place, which is usually a bit of a fiddle until you get the first mounting screw started.
For Instance with a motor with a 4mm shaft, I just push about a 3" - 75mm length of 4mm i.d tube over the motor shaft, with a small amount of interference fit to prevent it sliding off prematurely, and which, after feeding through the shaft hole in the bulkhead, can then be grabbed from the outside, pulling it up against the bulkhead, and at the same time twisting the motor with the tube to line up the mounting screw holes. Once you've got one screw fitted and tightened a little, the rest is easy!
Then after all four mounting screws are tightened up, and before removing the length of tubing, the length of tube itself is used as an alignment piece to check the down and side thrusts in relation to the front face of the motor bulkhead.

I have a feeling this should have gone into some sort of thread in the building section of RCG, but as it's relevant to the P2K, then hopefully both your suggestion and this one will help.

This model's assembly, and related problems, are proving to be a pain in the nether end. An ARF it most definitely ain't IMHO. More work than building my O/Ds. Ah well ... It was cheap, which unfortunately my time isn't!!!
Daffy.
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Old Aug 23, 2012, 09:45 PM
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All true, Daffy.

Some plastics are really, really, hard to glue and it's hard to do much about a motor mount that's not even close. Many years ago my dad built a Graupner with a blow molded fuse and he couldn't get anything to stick to it. After much frustration he finally found a translated version of the instructions and came up with the sanding/alcohol trick. I recently came across the remaining bits in a junk box and the epoxy is still sticking.

Plus? Sometimes one can shim a motor to correct a minor thrust line problem and having a datum helps to be sure if there even is a problem.

Tip for motor installation: Just get a 25-30mm screw of the appropriate size and thread. The longer the better. Capture the motor with the long screw and pretty much follow the same procedure as using a tube on the shaft.

Cheers!
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Old Aug 23, 2012, 10:19 PM
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United States, CA, Grass Valley
Joined Dec 2009
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Glue

LBD
I will tell you 2 adhesives that won't work, the first is PVC glue for gluing PVC plastic pipe together. I used PVC pipe for sprinklers at the house. The other is Welder's contact adhesive. This glue is similar to Goop, Shoe Goo, etc. Welder's works great on EPP foam. When I modified the firewall, and tail I used screws and a bit of epoxy for good measure. I put a 71 gram motor on the front replacing a 61 gram stock motor. Overall after all of my mods and repairs I think I added about 40- 50 grams of weight and it does not float as well as it did stock. It still does okay and it did not change a lot, but it is noticeable. I think it is a better plane and overall flies better than stock.
Gary
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 01:28 AM
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Thornleigh - 20k N of Sydney,N.S.W.,AUSTRALIA
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Thanks for that Gary,

Reduces trying some of those particular adhesive options.

FYI intend to make a motor firewall sandwich ... i.e. 1/8" (3mm) ply inside and 1/8" (3mm) ply on the outside, with the original firewall 'sandwiched' between them, with the whole shebang all screwed, and, if possible, glued together.
The inner circular piece of ply and the original firewall itself, will both have 30mm holes cut in them.
These holes should easily clear the outside of most motors intended to be used for this sized aircraft.
The outer circular piece of ply now becomes the actual motor mount proper.
This motor mount, with its edges sanded down to contour the original fuselage shape, should, I reckon, enable a 40mm dia. Spinner to be used, rather than a somewhat oversized 45mm type.
For additional strength 4mm (5/32") ply could be used, and either way, would add very little weight to the front end, especially as the original mounting hardware would be scrapped ... after possibly using one of them as a template.

I intended waiting until I did this mod. before making this post, but would would appreciate any constructive criticism of what I intend doing, and any suggested improvements to it, please ... ???
Daffy
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 01:52 AM
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Thornleigh - 20k N of Sydney,N.S.W.,AUSTRALIA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterlngh View Post
All true, Daffy.

Some plastics are really, really, hard to glue and it's hard to do much about a motor mount that's not even close. Many years ago my dad built a Graupner with a blow molded fuse and he couldn't get anything to stick to it. After much frustration he finally found a translated version of the instructions and came up with the sanding/alcohol trick. I recently came across the remaining bits in a junk box and the epoxy is still sticking.

Plus? Sometimes one can shim a motor to correct a minor thrust line problem and having a datum helps to be sure if there even is a problem.

Tip for motor installation: Just get a 25-30mm screw of the appropriate size and thread. The longer the better. Capture the motor with the long screw and pretty much follow the same procedure as using a tube on the shaft.

Cheers!
Thanks Peter ... All good info.
Regarding your last motor mounting method I've highlighted, thinking back, I've actually used that method too, using a length of M3 threaded rod, or a long M3 screw with its head cut off. Works a treat!
As, in some instances, the tube method does as well ... but yours is sometimes better than my tube method, unless the motor shaft hole is particularly hard to get at, but generally larger than all the M3 sized mounting holes and therefore easier to find and then feed the tube through.
Either way mounting a motor in a deep nose well is always a little difficult at the best of times ...
Your method is particularly good if you have to R & R the motor at any time.
Daffy.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 02:08 AM
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Has anyone found a practical way of adding ballast to the Phoenix? obviously the perfect place would be under the central servo tray but in my case and im guessing most cases that space is ocupied by the receiver..and there is no room to get the hands in there..


Im curious as to see how this would fly in the slope with added weight to increase speed in moderate to hind wind conditions..

Tought it can be a bad idea in stock form...i see the Phoenix wings flex quite a lot even in mid speed passes as it hits different lift zones... going high speed and pulling up seems potentially catasthropic unless reinforcing wings
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JLT_GTI View Post
Tought it can be a bad idea in stock form...i see the Phoenix wings flex quite a lot even in mid speed passes as it hits different lift zones... going high speed and pulling up seems potentially catasthropic unless reinforcing wings
I have pulled some very tight loops, and have pulled out hard from some fast dives. Recently I noticed that I managed to permanently bend the wings a little but have had no catastrophic failures... yet.

The worst case was when I was experimenting with rearward CGs of 90mm and a lifted rear stab. The dive tests were not too bad until without thinking I added a keychain cam to the tail plane which shift the CG well past 97mm.

For those you haven't flown their Phoenix in this configuration, it is particularly scary when you first enter a dive and the speed just continues to build and build with no sign of the usually self pull-out. You need some major elevator input to pull out of one of these and the wings really flex when you do.
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