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Old Aug 13, 2012, 09:28 AM
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Australia, VIC, Chadstone
Joined Dec 2011
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Originally Posted by Little Black Duck View Post
I will be scrapping all the electronic bits, together with all the servos replaced with improved quality 9gm servos in the wing, and possibly larger for the R & E.

...for my type of sport thermalling...
I'm interested to know more about 'Sport Thermalling' and why the stock motor/ESC is not sufficient for climbing to the altitude needed to catch thermals?

Also what 9gm servos will you be using/do you recommend as I am getting tired of HXT900's developing the jitters. And why larger on the R&E? What situations is the higher torque needed?
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Old Aug 13, 2012, 11:28 AM
Old Prop Buster
Sir Dumb Thumb's Avatar
United States, CA, Grass Valley
Joined Dec 2009
727 Posts
My Phoenix crash

My stock motor was getting so hot I could hardly touch it. I was taking it very easy going up and the motor was so hot!! I cut down the prop to 9 inches and it still was hot. My Castle Creations Thunderbird 36 ESC crapped out (not related to the heat issue) so I installed a Turnigy Sentry 25 and since I already had it apart I installed a older Thunder Tiger OBL 29/27-07 that fit just right in the mount. I took it out for a test flight and it was too underpowered. I needed 3/4 throttle to climb at all. So after a few climbs I gave it full throttle and I got about 30% climb. After about 2 seconds the ESC overheated and I lost all power. It went in hard at about a 45% angle and I went over with a trash bag for the parts. To my surprise it was fixable. A heat gun for the fuselage, glue for the broken wing, a new battery tray, aileron servos, and it will fly again. Maybe that is why it is called a Phoenix? I broke one of the servos so I am replacing the 4 stock servos with Emax 9 gram servos. I am putting a 1/8 inch plywood piece on the front and mounting the motor outside on the firewall. I will post pics when I am done. The moral, if ain't broke don't fix it, but that would be no fun, just cheaper.
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Old Aug 13, 2012, 03:05 PM
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Joined May 2010
71 Posts
First flight impressions

Just had my first flight with the phoenix today. First off I flew it with the stock motor, no cooling mods and no changes to the decalage. After flying however I will be changing the incidence of the rear stabilizer I am going to raise the LE of the elevator an eighth of an inch to start with. The motor was at about 225w and 25a @WOT with a 3cell LIPO and it definitely got hot quickly. I also used a 3cell LIFE which at WOT was about 150w and 20a, and I have to say this ended up being ideal while flying. Good power for climbs and motor was barely warm when I landed (again no cooling mods). So in short I am sticking with the stock motor but probably won't run LIPO's. Which for me is ok since one of the hills I frequent doesn't allow LIPO's anyway. I also will mostly use this for sloping and it will work great for that. other than those few changes it flew great with the cg at the recommended spot but I will adjust that. The only other thing I might work on is better rudder response but it was ok to start. Those of you looking to buy one I would say go ahead but you may want to get the kit, since you'll replace most of the electronics.
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Old Aug 13, 2012, 03:37 PM
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United States, IN, Bloomington
Joined Feb 2008
137 Posts
Jeebs,

I'm curious, why no lipos on the hill?
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Old Aug 13, 2012, 05:12 PM
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United States, MD, Baltimore
Joined Oct 2011
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Evolution

Peter,
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Old Aug 13, 2012, 05:21 PM
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United States, MD, Baltimore
Joined Oct 2011
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Peter,
I bought the RTF version in France this summer. The CG for the 1.6 setup need to be way back compared to the 2.6 version. I had to move the battery way back to get this even close.

The 1.6 flys much faster than the 2.6 version. The radio that came with mine was not programmable, if you have a computer transmitter, make sure to put in differential on the ailerons.

The instructions were horrible about setting up the wing joiner rods for the 1.6 version. The 2.6 uses all 4, the 1.6 uses only one.

If you have problems send me a PM.

Lou
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Old Aug 13, 2012, 08:07 PM
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fbm224's Avatar
Mexico, MEX, Naucalpan
Joined May 2009
29 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Dumb Thumb View Post
I am putting a 1/8 inch plywood piece on the front and mounting the motor outside on the firewall.
Sorry to hear about your crash, just keep in mind that moving the motor forward, on the other side of the firewall will affect a lot the C.G. and you will have to compensate this somehow.
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Old Aug 13, 2012, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamoore01 View Post
Jeebs,

I'm curious, why no lipos on the hill?
The clubs hill is on private land and due to the fire danger of lipos none are allowed. Surprisingly the landowner didn't request this but instead the club decided on it. As I have learned this is not as big an inconvenience as i originally thought it would be. I found it refreshing that the club decided to be proactive about the safety of their flying site rather than reactive. Anyways with this glider if your using the stock motor the 3 cell LIFE's are a good substitute that will not overtax the motor with the stock prop.
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Old Aug 13, 2012, 10:41 PM
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Thornleigh - 20k N of Sydney,N.S.W.,AUSTRALIA
Joined Aug 2001
746 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by maca55 View Post
I'm interested to know more about 'Sport Thermalling' and why the stock motor/ESC is not sufficient for climbing to the altitude needed to catch thermals?

Also what 9gm servos will you be using/do you recommend as I am getting tired of HXT900's developing the jitters. And why larger on the R&E? What situations is the higher torque needed?
Oh come on ... Surely you've read most of this thread ... Both the OE motor and the ESC are CR@P,and severely underrated for this airframe,,,!!!

Perhaps my 'Sport Thermalling' description of the type of flying I prefer was a bit vague. It is in direct contrast to 'Competition' flying where with my 'vague' Sport Thermalling description, it's really me just competing against Mother Nature I suppose, in reading the conditions and hopefully improving my thermalling ability.

I use BMS371s for the wing servos ... bought, as you'd expect, from HK, although I'd prefer to use Dymond D47s if they were still available.
If you have access to the July issue of QEFI mag, there's an article in it about choice of servos, and states that if you've got the room to fit them, a more powerful and/or speedy servo should be used, without going overboard of course.
There was a time not so long ago when all you could have we're Standard sized servos, which were very heavy in comparison to any current servo generally used in sailplanes, and typically similar to those I fitted into the Airtronics Aquila sailplane, my first RC aircraft, on which I learned to fly, back in the late 70s.

I digress ... OK ... Because I have at least eight Hitec HS82MG servos in my inventory, I thought it would be a simple job to substitute two of these for the R&E and bin the cheap OE servos, albeit with a few extra grams weight penalty. I know that generally Hitecs are reliable, and if the el-cheapo wing servos fail dismally, I should stand a chance of steering the PK2 home with the Rudder alone.

I'll keep posting on my progress, both with the mods. and with flying it as an aileron trainer.

Daffy.
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Old Aug 14, 2012, 01:12 AM
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Thornleigh - 20k N of Sydney,N.S.W.,AUSTRALIA
Joined Aug 2001
746 Posts
Quick P.S.

At the risk of repeating myself from another thread, where I asked if my proposed setup would be suitable for this, or any 1kg 2m span e-Sailplane, here is what I intend fitting iin the PK2, and my o/d sailplane later:
Motor ... Hyperion Gs2218-12 which comes with a 4mm shaft, and will therefore need a new spinner.
ESC ... Hobbywing 40A switching BEC ESC, or equivalent TGY Switching BEC because Six servos will be used.
Lipo ... 3S in the range 1300 - 1800mah, although a 2000 could possibly be used.
Prop ... 10 or 11x6 with a 45mm dia alloy spinner. And I believe I can go as big as a 12x6.5 without straining the little Hyperion motor ... Quite surprising ...
Servos have been mentioned previously, and all six may end up all being BMS371s or their MG equivalent.

This may help, but shouldn't hurt anyone upgrading from O.E.

Daffy.
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Old Aug 14, 2012, 07:06 AM
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Australia, VIC, Chadstone
Joined Dec 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Black Duck View Post
Oh come on ... Surely you've read most of this thread ... Both the OE motor and the ESC are CR@P,and severely underrated for this airframe,,,!!!
Yes I have read the posts of burnt out motors and the odd ESC failure. After reading them I smile and go out for another session of flying with the stock setup.

I've been flying the Phoenix with stock motor and ESC now for well over 6 months. Over 100 flights and this CR@P is still going strong
I limit the climbs to 45s and added a $5 UBEC to help out the ESC and give a little peace of mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Black Duck View Post
'Sport Thermalling' ... it's really me just competing against Mother Nature I suppose, in reading the conditions and hopefully improving my thermalling ability.
This sounds similar to the way I like to fly the Phoenix - like a glider ! I'm still learning and it's just my opinion, but I feel that the stock setup makes the competition against Mother Nature more interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Black Duck View Post
..severely underrated for this airframe
Have you flown the Phoenix with the stock setup? I find the stock setup adequate for getting up there and gliding. If I feel like fast vertical climbs and long extended motor runs up into the clouds I'll bring a different plane.

Stock will climb at 4-5m/s so will get you to 150-200m before getting hot. Even with no lift you can get 3-4 minutes of gliding from this height and that's more than enough time for the motor to cool for the next climb. I've even had the Phoenix well over 400m without burning the motor.

I'm definately no expert but I have gathered some flight experience with this plane. Learning to fly solo I have no doubt my technique is all wrong. I'd like to learn more about gliding from expert pilots, so I'm really interested to know how the more powerful motor/prop/ESC combo will help me catch the thermals?
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Old Aug 14, 2012, 07:36 AM
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Gold Coast Australia
Joined Sep 2010
263 Posts
Hi Guys
Like Macca I am amazed at all this talk about the stock set up being c.. p
I have over 50 flights dead stock and I give this bird absolute heaps including up to 1min
WOT climbs. I can climb out at a real steep angles ( and do outside loops ).
I get up to a half hour out of a 2200ma with approx 50% mixed power on / 50% gliding and it comes down with battery only warm, speedy warm but not hot enough to worry about , motor hot but can still hold a finger on it. Crude I know but the old finger touch and good smell test still works for me.
Just a thought are we sure we are all talking about the same model ???
Is the one us happy chaps have got a V 2 version and those that have burnt out esc / motors old V1 stock ?
My one has the metal plate on the outside of the engine mount and side air vents.
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Old Aug 14, 2012, 07:40 AM
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Australia, VIC, Chadstone
Joined Dec 2011
137 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Black Duck View Post
I use BMS371s for the wing servos ... bought, as you'd expect, from HK, although I'd prefer to use Dymond D47s if they were still available.
If you have access to the July issue of QEFI mag, there's an article in it about choice of servos, and states that if you've got the room to fit them, a more powerful and/or speedy servo should be used, without going overboard of course.
There was a time not so long ago when all you could have we're Standard sized servos, which were very heavy in comparison to any current servo generally used in sailplanes, and typically similar to those I fitted into the Airtronics Aquila sailplane, my first RC aircraft, on which I learned to fly, back in the late 70s.
Thanks for the tips on servos. The BMS371 is added to my wishlist, but at three times the price of an HXT900, I may just get one to try out first.

Wow the Dymond 47S look like it packed some punch! I don't have access to the QEFI article, but doesn't using a smaller 5gm servo instead of a 9gm go against whay it said about using larger servos?
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Old Aug 14, 2012, 08:19 AM
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Australia, VIC, Chadstone
Joined Dec 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles51 View Post
...it comes down with battery only warm, speedy warm but not hot enough to worry about , motor hot but can still hold a finger on it. Crude I know but the old finger touch and good smell test still works for me.
Yep finger touch method on landing is what I was using for a few months
I still use it, but was curious about the winding temp so I bought a little IR temp gage. It shows that the windings can be a good 10-20deg hotter than the case temp.

In cooler weather I have pushed the motor for 70s, then another 45s with only a 1min break inbetween climbs. This was probably pushing the little motor a little too hard and I wouldn't recommend it, but it still wasn't damaged or discoloured.

Recently I attached the FrSky temp sensor to the motor, so I now have live temp data and an adjustable alarm in open9x for if things get too hot. I've got it set at a 60deg and can easily keep it under that. It will be harder in Summer though I'm sure!

Anyone know at roughly what temp a motor will be damaged? I'm guessing it would be over 90deg, but I'm only guessing. I'll try some longer climbs next time I'm out and report back with the max temp seen.
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Old Aug 14, 2012, 08:32 AM
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Thornleigh - 20k N of Sydney,N.S.W.,AUSTRALIA
Joined Aug 2001
746 Posts
Could be that the blokes having no problems with their motors/ESCs DO have a V2 version, possibly with better equipt. Alternatively, of course, they may have just been lucky. Hopefully it's the former. But as I bought the less expensive, motor-less version, and had the little Hyperion motor, and a much better ESC, this LittleBlack Duck, won't have to worry about it!
Daffy.
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