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Old Nov 05, 2010, 09:23 AM View Post
allanlevi1
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 10:15 AM
Huckfest or bust!
cryhavoc38's Avatar
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You will find there are a couple factories that have contracts to create ESC's and motors for that matter for many big names.

Does that mean the internals are the same across the lines, no of course not, nor is the elevated programing features, however, the differences in price between an OEM such as the ZTW, and the highest priced unit, that being the hacker/Jeti versions, is in no way associated with the level of hardware installed.

Big name means big price.

You forgot to mention a couple other esc's that come from this factory.
Airboss, Quantum and Common Sense.

I've got a couple of the ZTW units from a couple sources, OKHOBBY.HK and from a fellow RC group member TMO, who has a hobbyshop and imports the ZTW's. They have proven, to me, to be very reliable, solid, and low cost.
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 10:21 AM
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I have a hacker 55 and an Airboss 45....they look identical. I still have the packaging they came in....identical. Even the odd shape of the cutouts in the packaging are identical as well as the cardboard insert....both the same size.
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 10:28 AM
Huckfest or bust!
cryhavoc38's Avatar
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Have a look at these as well.

I was sent a couple from the owner to try out.
They work just fine and you will notice that they are exactly like a couple well known brands with higher prices attached.

http://www.sonicelectric.com/Merchan...egory_Code=ESC





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Old Nov 05, 2010, 10:28 AM
**** 37130 ****
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Three letters - FET

When a semiconductor manufacturer makes a product, be it processors for computers or FETs for speed controllers, they do not deliberately produce a range of performance. All commercially produced semiconductors are made in large batches and then tested and then sorted by performance. FETs are graded by their speed and power handling. A FET that runs at 50 deg C at 75% of its rated power will command a higher price than one that hits 100 deg C at the same power. So a manufacturer may carry several grades of the same product or may sell off the ones that do meet their specification, for re-branding at a bargain price.

Many ESCs are custom made by the same company, in the same factory but with varying performance specifications. Unless you can identify the individual components on each you cannot be sure that they are identical.
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 10:32 AM
Huckfest or bust!
cryhavoc38's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobC(UK) View Post
Three letters - FET

When a semiconductor manufacturer makes a product, be it processors for computers or FETs for speed controllers, they do not deliberately produce a range of performance. All commercially produced semiconductors are made in large batches and then tested and then sorted by performance. FETs are graded by their speed and power handling. A FET that runs at 50 deg C at 75% of its rated power will command a higher price than one that hits 100 deg C at the same power. So a manufacturer may carry several grades of the same product or may sell off the ones that do meet their specification, for re-branding at a bargain price.

Many ESCs are made by the same company, in the same factory but with varying performance specifications. Unless you can identify the individual components on each you cannot be sure that they are identical.
Very true. very very true as I mentioned in my first post...BUT, the price of a premium fet versus a lesser capable fet is not measured in dollars, but in cents.
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 11:09 AM
Landings are not optional
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You've linked an old Hyperion esc, the new ones are made by/same as Scorpion, and can be programmed with an infrared remote.

The firmware in an esc is a critical part of it's operation, as evidenced by many of the issues even top manufacturers (Castle) have had with firmware updates. The proper firmware can mean a big difference in power and throttle response, even on identical hardware.
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Old Nov 06, 2010, 10:24 PM
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Airboss and Sonic ESC's also same .....

So it seems from the various comments so far:
That Airboss and Sonic ESC's are also the same as .... Hacker, Hyperion, ZTW, Black Mantis, JPEnErg, Mystery, PowerHD, and Hawk(Logic) ESC's .....
-so that is 10 different names put on essentially the same ESC device ...

And the other amazing fact is that the price of these very similar ESC devices can vary from 23 ($37; Black Mantis) to 81 ($131; Hacker)
-I have a distinct feeling that with Hacker, you end up paying $100 just for the Hacker badge ....
-and that Hacker simply depends on some modellers wanting what they perceive to be "the best" ....
-Whereas in reality, Hacker are just laughing at all the modellers and taking huge advantage of them -by supplying a device that is so very cheap and made in a Chinese factory ( -probably costs them $5 or $10 to buy), slapping their name on it, and then selling it for $130 .....

However, seems to me that this cannot continue -in a very short time, the vast majority of people will only buy direct from HobbyKing and other Far East suppliers, and Hacker will then simply go out of business. Hacker are simply too greedy ..... and will be found out by everyone ....

(Of course, exactly the same situiation also exists with brushless motors -almost all of them are made by the XYH / EMP Factory, or by EMax (YinYan Model -see their website).
-The XYH motors are sold under dozens of different names -Turnigy, Turnigy SK, Purple Power (4-max), Tornado Thumper (Overlander) and many many other names ....
-Whereas the EMax motors are re-badged as Turnigy "G" Series, E-Flite, and also many other names ....)

It seems to me, that this widespread re-badging of all items, is at best misleading, at worst simply dishonest.
Dr Allan Levi
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Old Nov 08, 2010, 02:59 PM
TMO
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Dear Allen,
The truth is that there are only 2 serious Chinese OEM manufacturers of quality speed controls- Hobbywing and ZTW. These guys do their own design, spec and fabrication, and their designs are original. There are other manufacturers of course, but they are producing clones of the designs of these companies, and in most cases these clones are several generations removed from current production, using lowest cost components, etc. Cryhavoc has pointed out this out over a long time here on the site and has been a tireless advocate for the average hobbyist.

For a decent and honest vendor like myself, rather than have ZTW or Hobbywing create a new label to stick on the speed control that I can call "my own brand" with the associated premium that must come with such a labelling, I've dispensed with the formality and choose instead to simply use the factory branding- and bring it to my customers at the lowest posiible price that I can.

So your list should really should begin with ZTW, and then identify all the others that OEM from ZTW. For reference, the 40A SBEC version that you identify costs $32.5 (20.15 GBP) in my shop under the ZTW brand label.

Along with Hobbywing's higher end models like the Pentium and Platinums, ZTW's are very very good.

When I get serious projects with the most demanding ESC requirements, I always choose/recommend Castle Creations.

As to "rebadging" etc, I'm not so sure that it is really dishonesty. OEM manufacturing and subcomponent contracting are totally pervasive in virtually every consumer electronic device today. Apple and Ericsson's main assembly plants are both within 1 mile of Hobbywing and ZTW. There are plenty of subcomponents going into these products that are knocked off, and put into inferior products. In hobby as well as pda's, it's the design and component quality that separates the wheat from the chaff. When you're dealing with a reputable dealer, it should go without saying that he knows his product and has at least understood the playing field. Although Hobbyking is excellent for alot of stuff, they rely on you and the rest of the hobby community (in the form of feedback) to vet out products and do quality control. There are still alot of people who deal with stores like mine, where I've already done that. For example, when I look through the feedback pages on turnigy lipo's on HK's site, I estimate a failure rate of about 15% based on user commentary. I buy packs contructed from the same cells from the same factory and probably even the same production run, but pack assembly is done by another smaller factory that I know does excellent work. I have yet to have a failure or even a puff after over 1000 sold. Amazing. I don't even charge much of a premium either. My point is that this is an example of the rebadging shell game that works against HK. So they may continue to grow and even become dominant, but the products are not as generic as they may appear at first glance.

But yes, it is outrageous what some companies charge for a ZTW with a different label. Cryhavoc posted a field guide to hobbywing rebadges awhile back, and the spread in price was similarly wide. It is worth mentioning though, that there is the third category- clones- and in most cases these are inferior products, done with rejected components and midnight shift assembly. You really have to watch out for these. When you know what the factory label costs, it becomes pretty clear which ones these are.

-Tim
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Old Nov 15, 2010, 09:16 PM
Watts is where its at!
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I just ordered a 40A ESC from quantumhobby, the site user TMO runs. I also have on hand a 60A Reaper ESC for comparison that is over a year older than the ZTW.


IMG_3674 by gareth.ky, on Flickr

Its clear that they share same PCB design. The 60A version is a double stack of two 40A boards. Right down to the slight twist with which some of the components are placed on the PCB by the pick and place machine. (Look at the 3 resistors to the North East corner of the CPU on each board!)


IMG_3680 by gareth.ky, on Flickr

They both use Rubycon capacitors from the same series "LZ". They are a very highly regarded Japanese capacitor manufacturer. If your buying caps you want them made in Japan.

Some of the surface mount capacitors are different but they have the same ratings. The MOSFETS that I can see are different. The ones on the Reaper are these (IR2101(S)) made by International Rectifier. The ZTW uses these (ISL6700IBZ) from Intersil. Based on the spec sheets I can't really tell what the difference is functionally. Maybe someone can say something about the quality of these components?

The CPU's are different. Reaper has an ATMEGA8 16AU and the ZTW is using a ATMEGA8A AU. The chip on the ZTW is fractionally cheaper but its functionally identical. It's go a lower minimum operation voltage of 2.7V, the chip on the Reaper cuts out at 4.5V. This pdf probably explains the difference, the Reaper I have is older and Atmel stopped making them. The new chip on the ZTW uses less power, is cheaper and is a drop in replacement for the old chip.

The ZTW controller comes in a black plastic heatshrink, probably in deference to its many customers that do re-badging. You don't want people comparing controllers in the field.

Basically what I'm saying is, these controllers came from the same production line. They use many of the same components that appear to be of good to excellent quality.

Now I really would love to get hold of a recently manufactured Hacker to see if they are the same thing. Anyone got a Hacker 40A and a camera with Macro capability and care to take a few pics?
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Old Nov 15, 2010, 11:01 PM
Landings are not optional
DeuceTrinal's Avatar
Van Nuys, CA
Joined Sep 2003
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Great work, interesting to see. I'm definitely putting a ZTW in my next plane.
I have a Hacker X-55sb that I'll try to photo next time I have the cowl off my SHP if it looks similar.

I still think the software is very important, I still love my Hyperion (Scorpion) simply for the fact that I can change LVC in 0.1V increments in the field with an infrared remote. Makes handling changing temperatures/battery sizes easy. In flight I can't tell a difference between any of the high-end ESC brands, but I find huge value in ease of programming.
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Old Nov 27, 2010, 09:38 PM
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Just stumbled upon this thread.

I have been running several of these ESC's... as sold by OKHobby. OKHobby does not appear to brand their ESC's with any labeling... not even a model number. I marked mine just so I could remember the amp rating.

Left to right: 18A ESC underside, heatsink side, programming card with 6A ESC in background.
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Old Nov 27, 2010, 09:56 PM
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OK so here's a question:

I've seen several variations on the programming cards for these:

CommonSenseRC:


Mystery:


HobbyKing BlueSeries:


The ZTW as listed on Quantum Hobby:


Of course the programming card I posted previously:


I'm sure there are others.

Any guess if these programming cards are cross compatible???
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 07:46 AM
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I have just received new Infinite 12A and 35A (with 3A SW BEC) from OKHobby. They now have the Infinite logo and rating stamped on the heat sink. I'll post some detailed photos when I get a chance.
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Old Jan 07, 2011, 06:34 AM
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Update: Many well known "makes" of motor are actually made by XYH / EMP

Just like speed controllers are only manufactured by just a few factories in China, and re-badged by many companies as their "own make":
-It is quite clear that all the following makes of brushless motor (at least) are made by the XingYaoHua (XYH) factory in Shenzhen, China: The company is also known as "EMP" -Electric Model Power:

Turnigy
Turnigy SK
Purple Power
Overlander "Thumper"
DualSky

see: http://www.xingyaohua.com/web/en/pro...p?pid=19&id=23
and: http://www.xingyaohua.com/web/en/pro...p?pid=19&id=13
and: http://www.xingyaohua.com/web/en/pro...p?pid=19&id=12

The "C" series of XYH motors are identical to standard Turnigy motors.
The "N" series of XYH are identical to TurnigySK motors.
There is also a series of micro-motors -suitable for Indoor flying.

Also: Worth noting that motors manufactured by EMax motors are simply re-badged as:
Turnigy "G" Series
E-Flite
-and also several other names

In addition: Hyperion ZS series of motors are made by Scorpion (according to information on this thread)

Seems there is nothing new in this world .....
Best wishes, Happy New Year, Allan L
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