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Old Nov 05, 2010, 11:17 AM
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Beaverton, OR
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Hi Ueli,

thanks for your help.

Lift,

- Bob -
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 12:22 PM
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Joined May 2006
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Thanks Ueli! Nice to meet you!
Tell us more about the Eurocup - qualifications for Spain etc.....
I'll google it, but if you have some sites of high relavance/interested please share them with us.
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 01:38 PM
yyz
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Originally Posted by zenoid View Post
Hi Ueli,

I have one, I've read in the rules that only 433Mhz modem are allowed and the use of skyNav. Is it necessary to take part in a "GPS triangle" comp. ?
If not, what if the telemetry suit have a real sensitive vario build around barometric ic and not GPS data ?

Regards Y.
Along those same lines, several of us are looking into the 900 MHz ZigBee Pro radios that have great distance and are inexpensive.

Personally, I am working on a WiFi (802.11) bridge that can take the 900 MHz telemetry data from all of the planes and make it available to a wider variety of devices on the ground (PDAs, iPhone, Kindle, Android, laptop connected to a projector, etc) such that they use their built-in WiFi hardware rather than having to add another radio to each of them.

I've had several nice exchanges with Christoph and he is very supportive of making the entire system less expensive and getting more people participating in formal events as well as posting personal flights to the http://www.skynavigator.net/ site.

It sounds like we finally have some momentum going and hopefully it will continue,

Mike
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 03:10 PM
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It's a nice idea to bridge the data to a central point. It's like in the 1:1 scale world championship where one can follow the competitors in real time, it's a good way to learn too and a good support for the organizers.
Perhaps it is time to set a kind of open standard for data presentation that abstract the different hardware for this goal ? Scoring ?

For example, my data are like this at the PDA serial port :
NMEA GGA + RMC + custom frame @ 4hz.

Custom NMEA frame is :
VZ (m/s), IAS (m/s), QNH (m) pressure height, C centigrade, any Voltage (v), RSSI, Throttle (%) (spy engine usage).

I've also opted for round turpoint that can be define anywhere in any size. Plus, they can be stacked (min and max height) and time windowed. That add the possibility to race on slope or plain vertically and horizontally (I like it )
Regards. Y.
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 03:36 PM
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Information / Help

Hi

At this time what does one need to be able to fly in this event. Where does one get the equipment, what is needed in the airplane. Will the contest director supply the equipment , Will the way points buzz when you get over the turn point, do you need a helper or can you fly with out one?

This sounds fun.

Thanks
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 04:30 PM
yyz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenoid View Post
It's a nice idea to bridge the data to a central point. It's like in the 1:1 scale world championship where one can follow the competitors in real time, it's a good way to learn too and a good support for the organizers.
Perhaps it is time to set a kind of open standard for data presentation that abstract the different hardware for this goal ? Scoring ?

For example, my data are like this at the PDA serial port :
NMEA GGA + RMC + custom frame @ 4hz.

Custom NMEA frame is :
VZ (m/s), IAS (m/s), QNH (m) pressure height, C centigrade, any Voltage (v), RSSI, Throttle (%) (spy engine usage).

I've also opted for round turpoint that can be define anywhere in any size. Plus, they can be stacked (min and max height) and time windowed. That add the possibility to race on slope or plain vertically and horizontally (I like it )
Regards. Y.
NMEA is a maritime standard. Though it "kind of" works for our purposes, I think the standard we should be following is from the IGC:

http://www.fai.org/gliding/

This is what the full-scale guys are using and have been for quite some time. The standard is designed specifically for sailplane racing and cross-country flying unlike the NMEA standard.

Having said that, the IGC requirements for a logger -- for our purposes -- are way over the top (difficult and overkill). Any logger, whether airborne or on the ground, IMO should create IGC files and contest officials, etc just trust that they haven't been tampered with.

Using that standard, we get existing flight planning and analysis tools, web sites, etc without having to do much if any work.

Anyway, not to sound like an expert, but I've been noodling this for a while and writing the software to translate whatever is coming out of the telemetry system (GPS, ASI & pressure altitude sensors, etc) into IGC format is pretty trivial. The effort should on building and making the hardware available as inexpensively as possible. It sounds like we're collectively making some ground there.

The SkyNavigator software that runs on the PDA does a great job so I don't think there is much need in reinventing the user interface wheel other than to make it available on other platforms and accept data formats other than NMEA.

That was much longer than I wanted it to be,

Mike
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 04:39 PM
yyz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mack5 View Post
Hi

At this time what does one need to be able to fly in this event. Where does one get the equipment, what is needed in the airplane. Will the contest director supply the equipment , Will the way points buzz when you get over the turn point, do you need a helper or can you fly with out one?

This sounds fun.

Thanks
Mack,

This is what most of the Europeans are using but Ueli can verify that:

http://www.icare-rc.com/skynavigator.htm

From the reading I've done, both online and in Aufwind, most of the guys are flying 1:3 scale sailplanes but most competitions are open to other sizes and non-scale ships as well.

Also, it doesn't sound like they are "measuring" the gliders (as the initial set of rules suggests) to make sure your "Ventus 2C" isn't some tricked-out F3B hotrod. They're trying to build more interest in the sport so the rules are intentionally pretty loose.

The Sky Navigator software has audible feedback so I imagine you could practice by yourself. The idea of a pilot and navigator pair flying the task together is a great idea. Another set of eyes, another brain, etc.

Mike
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by yyz View Post
NMEA is a maritime standard. Though it "kind of" works for our purposes, I think the standard we should be following is from the IGC:

http://www.fai.org/gliding/
Mike
Mike,

The NMEA is the "raw" output from all GPS modules. The RMC and GGA are NMEA strings that used the most. They contain data like time, date, LAT, Long, speed, altitude, etc. These strings are used to create the IGC files that you desire.

I agree about using the IGC file as the standard.

- Bob -
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 05:04 PM
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Beaverton, OR
Joined Apr 2002
165 Posts
Possibly using WinScore to score the contest

Let me say upfront that I haven't spent much time looking at the SkyNavigator app or docs so I'm not sure if this would work.

If everyone is using some type of GPS downlink, then there would be no problems having WinScore score the contest. This is provided that the GPS downlink can provide an IGC file of the flight.

- You can set up WinScore to look at the starting altitude and set penalties if 500M is exceeded.

- I haven't tried but the turn radius should be able to be reduced from the 0.2 mile radius we used at Montague and CA Valley to say 0.1 miles. Since all turns should be outside (around) the turnpoint the radius value should not be an issue.

If everyone were to also carry the SkyTraceGPS loggers we used at Montague and CA Valley, then IGC file generation is automatic. All you would then need is some way to make sure you made it around the turnpoints.

Just some thoughts.....

- Bob -
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 05:23 PM
Team Horizon
United States, CA, Montague
Joined Jan 2004
211 Posts
Here is a link to the Sky Navigator manual in English, brought to you courtesy of a link found on the Icare website: http://www.icare-rc.com/document/Sky...%20v%20_2_.pdf

Pages 8 and 9 describe creation of the course and actually flying the task.

Once again, I would encourage anyone wanting to write their own software to study this manual to discover all the things this program can do. As someone who has used this software to actually do the task, I can tell you that I cannot think of anything that it needs to do better. Sure, it would be nice to put the display on a JumboTron mounted across the field from the pilot, but it's not going to happen. The display on the Ipaq works fine. Of course it would be nice if the software ran on other devices. Is it possible to write or find software to make that happen? If it is running on a smart phone, what happens when, just as you near a turn point and need to hear the tone that you have cleared it, the phone rings? I'm not trying to be a smart, it is a serious question. I know you can turn the phone part off, but would people really be willing to do that? And would they remember to do it?

For me, the $200 for an Ipaq to run this software and be able to participate in this facinating segment of the sport is not a big deal. It's a lot less than most any other single component I use for flying scale sailplanes. Of course I didn't actually have to pay $200 for a new Ipaq. I got one for free from the local bleeding edge geek. It had been sitting unused in his garage ever since it was obsoleted (according to him) 6 months after he bought it. I bet you could find one for free too if you know enough geeks. (I work in a building full of them)

Enough talking. I need to get back to work with the other geeks here at work so I can afford to buy more hardware to try.

Rick

PS
I am not trying to discourage anyone from developing anything they think will contribute to the sport.
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Old Nov 05, 2010, 06:07 PM
yyz
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USA, CA, Paso Robles
Joined Dec 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HLGNut View Post
Mike,

The NMEA is the "raw" output from all GPS modules. The RMC and GGA are NMEA strings that used the most. They contain data like time, date, LAT, Long, speed, altitude, etc. These strings are used to create the IGC files that you desire.

I agree about using the IGC file as the standard.

- Bob -
Thanks Bob. Not quite true about "all" GPS units using NMEA for output. Higher end devices typically have a vendor-specific binary format that provides far more information than is included in the NMEA sentences.

Glad we agree on what should be the standard though,

Mike
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Old Nov 06, 2010, 03:52 AM
Ueli Nyffenegger
Switzerland
Joined Nov 2010
42 Posts
Good morning!

The question why we are not allowing to use other systems then Skynavigator is verry simple: After we started flying longer time ago we was only about 6 Pilots with 6 Skynavi system and 6 Varios all on 433 MHz. After we was more and more Pilots (and Systems) we became problems with transmissions of datas. So, there came the decsission to allow only Skynavy System and the Problems where solved! Now with the new coming up systems on the 2.4 Backchanel, Vario`s can be used again. We are allready testing some Systems for Jeti Duplex and Weatronic now. More coming up soon. And they`re all compatible with the Skynavi Software.
The other thing you are discussing is the Hard- and Software. After the system has becomming "open", means other Systems are compatible with the SW, we should think about using all the same Software! That is because to the Skynavi Software there is a Competition administration Software available. After you have finished a flight, you`ll get all Datas out of the Skynavi SW together with a Checkcode. In the Admin SW well be generated the same Checkcode if all Datas are Correct. So it is verry simple to have a perfect Rankinglist. And if we`re all are using the same SW, we can have a Competition together like the WC in Spain next year and all are working at the same level.
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Old Nov 06, 2010, 10:54 AM
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United States, CA, Folsom
Joined Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEAN GRADWELL View Post
Bob,
Yes it will be what I believe is the standard course.
Imagine yourself standing in a field. 500m in front of you is a turnopoint, on your left 500m away is a turnpoint and the same for the right.
Starting altitude 500m max.
Glider is easy to see without having eagle eyes.
At Montague the course would be behind the hangars.

Regards Dean
Dean,
Am I reading this right? This event will not be XC, just a triangular course approximately 1/2 mile to a leg? To whit, flown standing in one spot versus hitting the road?

JT
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Old Nov 07, 2010, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEAN GRADWELL View Post
Bob,
Yes it will be what I believe is the standard course.
Imagine yourself standing in a field. 500m in front of you is a turnopoint, on your left 500m away is a turnpoint and the same for the right.
Starting altitude 500m max.
Glider is easy to see without having eagle eyes.
At Montague the course would be behind the hangars.

Regards Dean
As I understand it the course should look like this - is this then correct?

- Bob -
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Old Nov 07, 2010, 06:00 AM
Ueli Nyffenegger
Switzerland
Joined Nov 2010
42 Posts
Yes exactly.To creat a new Triangel, just open in the Skynavi SW "creat a new Triangel". First you stand with the complete GPS System about 10m before point X (flyingdirection), then click to: save position. After that, walk about 10m after X and do the same. Thats all, the Triangel is ready. Now you save the Triangel to the SD Card in your PDA. Then give this SD Card to all Pilots, they import the Triangel in to there own PDA. So you`re shure all Pilots have excatly the same Triangel.
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