SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Oct 13, 2010, 04:14 PM
Registered User
Joined Oct 2010
6 Posts
Discussion
Need Experts to help with a multicopter build PLEASE! THX

Hello Everyone!,
Newbie here! yes I know... one of those guys again... I met someone and he suggested that I check with you guys as apparently you guys suppose to be the best and know your stuff...
Please help me choosea good:
Brushless Motors, FlightCtrl and BL Ctrl
Propellers = what size, which one is the best?
Thank you all in advance for your time and expertise and I hope I can start this build very soon on this board.
Cheers,
Jafang is offline Find More Posts by Jafang
Last edited by Jafang; Oct 15, 2010 at 07:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Oct 13, 2010, 04:40 PM
Suspended Account
Long Island, New York
Joined Jun 2008
6,428 Posts
Dude, does your nurse know you are on the internet again?
Tarro is offline Find More Posts by Tarro
Reply With Quote  (Disabled)
Old Oct 13, 2010, 07:30 PM
Registered User
Joined Oct 2010
6 Posts
I think I sent her a text... so I take it as you're saying not possible!!??
can you at least tell me what is the max payload it can be archived?
Jafang is offline Find More Posts by Jafang
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 13, 2010, 07:48 PM
Suspended Account
Long Island, New York
Joined Jun 2008
6,428 Posts
What you want is possible but you really have to know what you're doing to build and fly it. As far as wanting to fly it indoors, that might be impossible unless you're talking about a stadium or something.
What do you want to video? Can you use a DSLR to do the job?
Tarro is offline Find More Posts by Tarro
Reply With Quote  (Disabled)
Old Oct 13, 2010, 09:49 PM
Registered User
United States, IL, Park Ridge
Joined Apr 2010
211 Posts
Hi !
Newbie here also but with 1 T-copter build.
I will build test version first.
For egz. cheap HK motors + ESC+ gyros and 2 lb/1kg frame = $100-$150 and You can start testing controlers, stability.
Later it will be easy to change mechanical part to more pwerfull.
Only my 2 cents.
Regards
Tom

Gyros only T-copter 1100g/39oz. - hover @ 1/2 throtle, full power 23A
Sorry for video quality.
T copter (3 min 14 sec)
Tifani is offline Find More Posts by Tifani
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 14, 2010, 01:15 AM
Registered User
Joined Oct 2010
6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarro View Post
What you want is possible but you really have to know what you're doing to build and fly it. As far as wanting to fly it indoors, that might be impossible unless you're talking about a stadium or something.
What do you want to video? Can you use a DSLR to do the job?
Thanks Tarro,
I shoot mostly commercials for real states and car dealerships, sometimes at night, but I do have clinics as clients and they wanted to shoot indoor but that I can do with a steadycam arm. as for DSLR I was afraid of this question because I spend lots of money for my gears and I was struggling with the question of spend $$$ for new Canon HD DSLR gear (I have the Nikon DSLR gear but they don't shoot HD vid) or use the Canon XH A1 which is a very good camera and spend the money on a multicopter, but if it is too difficult to build such a powerful copter than maybe I have no other choice
Jafang is offline Find More Posts by Jafang
Last edited by Jafang; Oct 14, 2010 at 01:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 14, 2010, 01:36 AM
Registered User
Joined Oct 2010
6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifani View Post
Hi !
Newbie here also but with 1 T-copter build.
I will build test version first.
For egz. cheap HK motors + ESC+ gyros and 2 lb/1kg frame = $100-$150 and You can start testing controlers, stability.
Later it will be easy to change mechanical part to more pwerfull.
Only my 2 cents.
Regards
Tom
Thanks Tifani for your advice, It makes sense. Nice T-Copter, how long did it take you to learn the curve of build and flying the copter?

Also is there a calculator that can calculate what motor, prop and battery combo you need to lift X amount of weights? I found
this site but a bit confusing.
Jafang is offline Find More Posts by Jafang
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 14, 2010, 05:06 AM
Suspended Account
Long Island, New York
Joined Jun 2008
6,428 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafang View Post
Thanks Tarro,
I shoot mostly commercials for real states and car dealerships, sometimes at night, but I do have clinics as clients and they wanted to shoot indoor but that I can do with a steadycam arm. as for DSLR I was afraid of this question because I spend lots of money for my gears and I was struggling with the question of spend $$$ for new Canon HD DSLR gear (I have the Nikon DSLR gear but they don't shoot HD vid) or use the Canon XH A1 which is a very good camera and spend the money on a multicopter, but if it is too difficult to build such a powerful copter than maybe I have no other choice
Because of your lack of any RC experience, to build and fly anything commercially is going to require a huge commitment of time and money. You will first need to learn to fly and fly very good. If you plan to fly around people you are going to have fully understand the capablity of the platform in order to keep it safe. You are going to need at least 2 platforms to do commercial work. If there is something wrong with one platform you can use the other. You are going to have to do a lot of soldering, designing and tuning of the platform as well.
Tarro is offline Find More Posts by Tarro
Reply With Quote  (Disabled)
Old Oct 14, 2010, 10:42 PM
Registered User
United States, IL, Park Ridge
Joined Apr 2010
211 Posts
Hi !
Build was very easy thanks to SignGuy build log and my acces to machine shop.
Flying - I can hover it - no more.
Tom
Tifani is offline Find More Posts by Tifani
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 15, 2010, 12:18 AM
Registered User
bob4432's Avatar
United States, AZ
Joined May 2010
1,820 Posts
may i suggest a much smaller build so you can learn to fly a quad/hela/octal? from a safety view i don't think one should to learn to fly a multirotor on a 25# machine - lots of metal/carbon fiber and propellers spinning could do some serious damage or death to somebody. i would personally recommend a kk or multiwill controller - a controlller where you need to be able to fly so you can then add on the extras that some of the more advanced controllers bring to the table like hover hold, etc.

you could build this small "practice" quad for probably less than $500 or so and get a very good education of what you would want in a larger quad/hexa/octal setup.

bob
bob4432 is offline Find More Posts by bob4432
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 15, 2010, 12:36 AM
Jakub J's Avatar
Krakow/POLAND
Joined Dec 2009
1,738 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafang View Post
...
for a total of around 15 lbs/ 6.8 kg
...and fly for 20 - 30+ minutes....
Short answer - impossible with electric motors
and avialable power sources. No way.

J.
Jakub J is offline Find More Posts by Jakub J
Site Sponsor
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 15, 2010, 05:50 PM
Registered User
Joined Oct 2010
6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob4432 View Post
may i suggest a much smaller build so you can learn to fly a quad/hela/octal? from a safety view i don't think one should to learn to fly a multirotor on a 25# machine - lots of metal/carbon fiber and propellers spinning could do some serious damage or death to somebody.
Thanks Bob for your advise.
Yes after analyzing Tarro's “nurse” comments and educating myself a bit more and going to a friend who has a T-REX 700E, I felt the danger that you are talking about, in fact it was terrifying to go so close to it never mind flying it, so yes the message is loud and clear: don't drive a dump truck at your first driving lesson in downtown main street. But I am also somehow hooked to the idea of the multicopter challenge to get 8 rotors to work together and all that, so I will start a small quadcopter project with my son to learn and challenge ourselves and also to do something together.

But I really need help to pick a good platform with future expansion and growth, I rather spend $10 for a toaster that I know works great every time and can toast bagels too than spend $2 on a toaster that I have to replace every month. (I also don't want to be a sucker and pay $10 for a toaster thats worth $2) if you know what I mean.

So keeping the toaster in mind what is the best platform for future growth? Is the MK the best platform there is? I spend a great time reading about this multicopter platforms and I got confused and come back to MK for some reason!! but there are some people on this board (and other) who say that MK has a lot of issues and they point to other platform like ArduCopter, OpenPilot, UAVP-NG etc..

any comment on the platform?

Thanks
Jafang is offline Find More Posts by Jafang
Last edited by Jafang; Oct 15, 2010 at 06:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 16, 2010, 10:20 AM
Tri-Quad-Hexa-Octo-copters!!
United States, TX, San Antonio
Joined Feb 2007
14,611 Posts
Hi Jafang,
The only GPS capable high end "hobbyist-budget" type multicopter platforms with mature multicopter flying stability and performance for AVP are the MK and the UAVX and the UAVP-NG. All have long learning curves. All have some level of source and build it yourself unless you want to pay a high premium for an RTF or ARTF setup which can be up to 20x the cost of parts. I do not recommend that path because if you are serious about getting into this commercially, you or someone on your team needs to have in-depth knowledge on flying and maintaining these flying Cuisinarts for optimum performance and SAFETY. GPS might not be necessary for the kind of AVP you plan to do, but those boards listed above are mature from over 5 years of flying and development currently and have that capability and more. The others out there are still all talk and either no hardware with past history of not coming through on promised capabilities, or are still in development and will get there...someday...maybe... There are also some nice cheapo $100-200 BIY gyro only and gyro and accelerometer solutions that are easy and fun to build and learn on. Some lower cost RTF commercial quads are fun and good to learn on too. Some of those can be scaled up with larger frames and motors to carry larger payloads. I would not choose those for flying expensive camera equipment. The only suitable boards for AVP with expensive cameras are the ones with self-leveling capability that is done with a properly coded accelerometer. Many of the multicopters that are in development are having difficulty getting the accelerometer code and hardware properly integrated into their design for reliable performance.
I also concur with Jakob's comment on flying time. Flight times for multi-copters are the new "mine-is bigger-than-yours" Internet tale Expect that with most efficient frame-motor-prop builds and carrying a camera payload that 10 to 15 minutes is easily achievable allowing for a safe lipo reserve for landing. Longer duration claims are usually without payloads and carefully hovering indoors without wind. Longer than 30 minute flight time claims with normal AVP payloads are done with specially wound motors, specially designed props, expensive and high volt and mah power sources not normally available to hobbyists, and therefore extremely high equipment costs beyond $50K.
You mentioned wanting one that is uncrashable That feature comes at considerable cost of up to $100K. And they are still not completely uncrashable if solid flight and safety procedures are not followed. Despite some of the videos you might have seen demonstrated as being "uncrashable", all those models have found a way to crash at some point, due to either pilot error or flying out of the performance envelope, equipment failure, or not doing good maintenance and pre and post flight flying checklists. Also get a simulator and practice with some of the multicopter and helicopter models first! They might not all be exact feel for the controls, but they will all train you in the required stick movements and orientation. When flying RC you are not truly safe at flying if you have to do a lot of thinking before moving the sticks...
More reading for you here:
Quadrocopter and Tricopter Mega Link Index
Cheers,
Jim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafang View Post


Thanks Bob for your advise.
Yes after analyzing Tarro's “nurse” comments and educating myself a bit more and going to a friend who has a T-REX 700E, I felt the danger that you are talking about, in fact it was terrifying to go so close to it never mind flying it, so yes the message is loud and clear: don't drive a dump truck at your first driving lesson in downtown main street. But I am also somehow hooked to the idea of the multicopter challenge to get 8 rotors to work together and all that, so I will start a small quadcopter project with my son to learn and challenge ourselves and also to do something together.

But I really need help to pick a good platform with future expansion and growth, I rather spend $10 for a toaster that I know works great every time and can toast bagels too than spend $2 on a toaster that I have to replace every month. (I also don't want to be a sucker and pay $10 for a toaster thats worth $2) if you know what I mean.

So keeping the toaster in mind what is the best platform for future growth? Is the MK the best platform there is? I spend a great time reading about this multicopter platforms and I got confused and come back to MK for some reason!! but there are some people on this board (and other) who say that MK has a lot of issues and they point to other platform like ArduCopter, OpenPilot, UAVP-NG etc..

any comment on the platform?

Thanks
jesolins is offline Find More Posts by jesolins
Last edited by jesolins; Oct 16, 2010 at 10:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 16, 2010, 06:21 PM
Registered User
Joined Oct 2010
6 Posts
Thanks Jim,
I really appreciate your explanation, It help us a lot in our never ending discussions.

One thing we got out of our way is that if (that is still a BIG if) we go for the AVP platform, our team member who flys the T-Rex 700e would be the pilot (we have worked together for 9 years), its almost impossible to shoot and fly at the same time except you're one hell of a heli pilot and a very experienced Camera man or you're James Cameron

We already made a decision to go lighter with a Canon 5D Mark III (coming end of 2011) instead of the Canon XH A1 that we have, right there we cut the weight to 60% less with Lens and all.

So now we are talking about a maximum of 1500g weight to lift.... still too high but maybe by the time we build, train and purchase the camera (10-12) months from now there will be a better technology available both from the camera and copter side (propellers, motors, frame, etc..) that can shave more from the weight and lift.

Maybe we should modify the T-Rex 700e as he already knows how to fly it, (he crashed it 5 time already though) but again good luck finding someone brave enough to fly this monster over very expensive cars dealership. So lots of stress on our little brain... if we had tons of free cash, that would be no issue, Draganflyer X8 but at over $45,000 for a fully AVP platform that can lift a max of 1000g for 12 minutes. Is just as crazy as my original idea of lifting 25 lbs.

Hiring a full size helicopter for AVP is not always economic and more importantly not always possible because of the no-fly zone due to Hospital, Emergency, government air route or to many obstacles in view as the copter can't get close enough without blowing everything away. Also time sensitive as the cost could go way up if ground crew not ready on time (never happened that things went on schedule in my experience), fuel cost alone could make someone dizzy.

Thanks again to everyone for your help.
Jafang is offline Find More Posts by Jafang
Last edited by Jafang; Oct 16, 2010 at 06:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion I need help to build quadcopter study 3D Electric Heli Flying 2 Oct 15, 2010 06:54 PM
Help! Need help from the experts(you know who you are) Z06 Tony Multirotor Talk 14 Oct 13, 2010 09:20 PM
Discussion EZosd hook-up with RMRC 900 mhz system ?s please help carbonbmw FPV Talk 12 Oct 10, 2010 06:02 PM
Discussion Need help with a build please! hamashi Electric Power Cars 9 Feb 24, 2010 06:15 PM
Help! Please help with E-starter build suggestions, need advise minobu Beginner Training Area (Aircraft-Electric) 7 Jul 29, 2007 07:20 PM