SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Jul 08, 2003, 09:22 PM
(AKA) Boomerwankanobi
Stocker's Avatar
dark matter
Joined Jun 2003
2,403 Posts
North East X-treme Boomer

Hey thank you for the plug Mr. thompson,
Check out the latest thread on the Boomer! I do have 2vidio's
from the 4th (sorry no website yet guys) but if you send me your e-mail I will be glad to send them out to you ASAP. I will build a web as soon as I can get my buddy free to help me with it.
I will say the Boomer is an awsome Flat Land Wing.
I am currently flying it with a

Hitec Neon Radio
4MG Receiver
HS-55 servo's
110Mah 4 cell
this is no real special gear and it fly's fantastic.
Also please be carfull of building these wings too light as you
will loose to much penatration and thats not good if you can't reatain energy on a wing. (Too light is not good) that is why I made the W2 version.

Regard's, Mike Baker
Stocker is offline Find More Posts by Stocker
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Jul 08, 2003, 09:45 PM
Gambler-AG DLG Designer
Allan Wright's Avatar
Lee, NH, USA
Joined Jun 2001
5,188 Posts
Hi Dimple,

The Gambler will out perform an extended wing bug. I think they are equal in durability, maybe even an edge to the Gambler because of the glassed pod. Remember the spar on the Gambler is reinforced top and bottom with CF so it's basicly a composite spar - very durable.

I'm not familiar with the other planes on the list (other than the bug) but the Gambler is an S3021 airfoil with wing loading of 3.5-3.9 oz/sq. ft. That makes it quite a floater. I doubt you'll get wingloading like that from the flying wings in your list. The spinner may have some advantages in thermaling with the camber changing airfoil, but I'd bet it's wingloading is much higher. Really all of the planes you list are in a similar 'class' i.e. affordable, entry-level HLGs. If you already have a bug and know you like HLG, you might consider saving a few more dollars and stepping up to one of the $200 DLGs available.
Allan Wright is offline Find More Posts by Allan Wright
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 09, 2003, 12:07 AM
Registered User
New Zealand
Joined Feb 2003
357 Posts
So what is this chamber-changing business? excuse my ignorance... Is it just the fact that the ailerons are controlled by individual servos and thus the reflex can be adjusted on the fly?

Allan -

I think I like HLG and I do agree with you that eventually I should get into one of those higher end ships. However I am still relative new and I don't want to end up spending lots on something that I may end up crashing into pieces. The bug I have is not much of a trainner coz the hang time is so short. This is why I focus on these ships which as you say, are affordable entry-level HLGs.
dimple is offline Find More Posts by dimple
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 09, 2003, 02:01 AM
Registered User
New Zealand
Joined Feb 2003
357 Posts
List of technical data

Gambler
Span 48"
Wing area 256 sq in (calculated)
Weight 6.6Oz
Wing Loading 3.7Oz/sq ft
Span Loading 0.41Oz/sq ft (calculated)
Airfoil S3021
Construction balsa, CF reinforced spar

Spinner
Span 60"
Wing area 390 sq in
Weight 15Oz
Wing Loading 5.5Oz/sq ft
Span Loading 0.6Oz/sq ft (calculated)
Airfoil AG44-AG46
Construction EPP, CF spar

Seeker
Span 42"
Wing area 180 sq in (calculated from estimate)
Weight 3.75oz Midrange
Wing loading "<3Oz/sq ft"
Span loading 0.31 (calculated)
Airfoil not specified
Construction EPS what else?

Red herring (EPS)
Span 34"
Wing area 290 sq in
Weight 4.75Oz Midrange
Wing loading 2.35Oz/sq ft (recalculated)
Span loading 0.59Oz/sq ft (calculated)
Airfoil RH-1
Construction EPS, delta

Red herring (EPP)
Span 34"
Wing area 290 sq in
Weight 7.5Oz (midrange)
Wing loading 3.72Oz/sq ft (recalculated)
Span loading 0.93Oz/sq ft (calculated)
Airfoil RH-1
Construction EPP, delta

Miniweasel
Span 24"
Wing area 168 sq in
Weight 4.1Oz (midrange)
Wing loading 3.5Oz/sq ft (calculated)
Span loading 1.0Oz/sq ft (calculated)
Airfoil proprietary
Construction EPP, delta, wooden spar

Bug standard
Span 29.5"
Wing area 163 sq in
Weight 3.5Oz
Wing loading 3.1Oz/sq ft
Span loading 0.58Oz/sq ft
Airfoil ?
Construction balsa, CF spar

Bug extended wing
Span 34.5"
Wing area 242 sq in (estimated from mean chord of 7")
Weight ? say 4Oz
Wing loading 2.38Oz/sq ft
Span loading 0.48Oz/sq ft
Airfoil ?
Construction balsa, CF spar

My current substandard bug
Span 29.5"
Wing area 163 sq in
Weight 4.5Oz
Wing loading 3.98Oz/sq ft
Span loading 0.74Oz/sq ft
Airfoil ?
Construction balsa, CF spar

Ranking based on data
================
Wing loading - lightest to heaviest
EPS red herring 2.35
Extended bug 2.38
Seeker "<3"
Bug 3.1
Miniweasel 3.5
Gambler 3.7
EPP red herring 3.72
My current substandard bug 3.98
Spinner 5.5

Span loading - lightest to heaviest
Seeker 0.31
Gambler 0.41
Extended bug 0.48
Bug 0.58
EPS Red herring 0.59
Spinner 0.6
My current substanard bug 0.74
EPP Red herring 0.93
Miniweasel 1.0

Conclusions
1. These figures explain why my bug underperforms!
2. Seeker's performance looks best on paper
3. If getting red herring, it must be a EPS. No point getting EPP red herring coz it is not much better than my current bug
4. Extended bug if built correctly is very good too
dimple is offline Find More Posts by dimple
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 09, 2003, 02:14 AM
Feeling FrSky
surfimp's Avatar
United States, CA, Santa Barbara
Joined Feb 2003
20,091 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by dimple
Miniweasel is certainly the second most economical option (after the bug) because I have all the electronics / radio already. It is durable which is a real plus but how easy is it to achieve that low weight?
Easy. Just leave the tape covering off Durability is still good, we fly that plane on the slope as well and it's holding up quite well. Penetration is not so hot of course, but honestly it really hangs in there in light lift and will make the most out of any thermals it encounters.

Now, that said, is it as much of a flat field performer as the other planes mentioned here? I have no idea, I don't know anything about the other planes mentioned in this thread. I suspect it's not as good, to be totally honest. It's a micro slope glider that can also be SALed and had fun with on a flat field, as opposed to a DLG/HLG that's designed primarily for that task.

Quote:
Do you fly the miniweasel on flat field regularly?
Not recently as the slope lift has been fairly decent, but I will be transitioning to primarily flat field flying soon as the summer wears on and the slope lift gets bad.

I think there's a bunch of good info in this thread, I like my miniWeasel but like I said it probably doesn't compare so well to the more focused HLG/DLGs mentioned. Works for me, FWIW. Your mileage may vary
surfimp is offline Find More Posts by surfimp
RCG Plus Member
Old Jul 09, 2003, 08:08 PM
Registered User
John Gallagher's Avatar
Lindenwold, NJ, USA
Joined Dec 2000
3,163 Posts
Dimple,
There's at least two more factors that should also be considered.
The weights you used to calculate the loadings can vary. In one of the Gambler threads, one builder mentioned that his Gambler came out less than six ounces. My extended wing bug will be about 3.25-3.5 ounces - I've found some lightweight balsa. From what I've read, the Seeker design and kit is so optimized that most of them are coming out at 3.75 to 3.8 ounces. It's probably still best to go with the weights you used.

Launch height will be much higher with the spinner. The others mentioned are probably in the 50 to 70 foot range, while the spinner could top over 100 feet. If you throw an extended bug 50 feet up and the spinner 100 feet, you would probably get the longer no-lift flight from the spinner. This is further complicated by the fact that thermals are stronger at 100 feet than at 50.

Nothing is ever simple, but I think you can't go wrong with the Spinner, Gambler, or extended bug.

John
John Gallagher is offline Find More Posts by John Gallagher
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2003, 05:53 AM
Registered User
New Zealand
Joined Feb 2003
357 Posts
John

I agree with you completely. My calculations were just an attempt to simplify things for myself. Today I read an article on quiet flying and as the author suggests, the airfoil is the most important in DLG rather than the wing loading.

However the calculations do help because after seeing the results I do not intend to get a herring or miniweasel anymore, but I guess I have always been biased towards the more traditional plane anyway. Like you have suggested I have narrowed my choice to the spinner, gambler, and the seeker; or to build an extended bug.

I think I will definitely try the extended bug since I have the material around anyway. The monetary cost to me is virtually zero although I am a bit busy at work and I wanna fly more than cutting balsa to the exact shape. I wish the bug has a kit... Don't get me wrong, I like building, but I like flying more when time is limited. Also I do think I will grow out of even an extended bug reasonably quickly, since as you pointout the launch height for the bug is lower and hence dead air time is shorter. I suspect the extended wing bug has the lowest performance c.f. the rest of the remainder planes. Of course it will remain good as a fly any time no fear of trashing type of plane.

I will most likely end up buying one of the 3 commercial planes, as a transition to the more high end ones like taboo.

It seems that the spinner is the most durable, has the highest launch height, but also the most expensive

The gambler and seeker probably has similar performance, price and durability?

I am deciding between two options. For approx US$140 I can (a) buy a spinner only or (b) Use the same money to get a seeker and the plan for gambler. There will still be money left for some balsa / raw material to build the gambler.

It appears that option (b) is a more economical choice, but if spinner is definitely going to outperform a gambler / seeker by a abig margin, I will probably take option (a) - one durable plane of higher performance is better than 2 of less durability and ??less performance.

Can some one please quote some dead air time / launch height for the spinner, seeker and the gambler?

Thanks
dimple is offline Find More Posts by dimple
Last edited by dimple; Jul 10, 2003 at 06:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2003, 09:21 AM
Registered User
John Gallagher's Avatar
Lindenwold, NJ, USA
Joined Dec 2000
3,163 Posts
Sorry I meant to say that you couldn't go wrong with the seeker, gambler , or extended bug.
Dead air time isn't thermalling performance. I'd go with option b, although the Gambler is more for a novice than the Seeker.
After you have gained experience, durability won't be so necessary and you can go for a dlg like the Janco Avenger ($250) or even the Taboo, XP-3.
John Gallagher is offline Find More Posts by John Gallagher
Last edited by John Gallagher; Jul 10, 2003 at 09:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2003, 10:50 AM
Registered User
Scottsmoor, FL
Joined May 2003
4 Posts
My Seeker (3.6oz) launches quite a bit higher than my Bug (3oz). Dead air times for the Seeker are around 40sec versus the Bugs 30sec or so. As compared to the Bug, the Seeker excels in penetration and its ability to range out. Also seems more responsive to lift.
carl_k is offline Find More Posts by carl_k
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2003, 11:09 AM
Registered User
San Francisco
Joined Jul 2000
982 Posts
The Seeker does penetrate quite well (better than other built up floaters I have seen) and I have flown mine in pretty windy conditions with success. One note about the Seeker though - it is designed for specific equipment so if you already have gear that you plan to use make sure it will fit. I can tell you a Hitec 555 won't do the job and if you're servos are too thick you'll also be out of luck as there's no modifying the pod.

Greg
greg morrison is offline Find More Posts by greg morrison
Last edited by greg morrison; Jul 12, 2003 at 12:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 12, 2003, 07:32 AM
Registered User
New Zealand
Joined Feb 2003
357 Posts
Thanks all for the reply. After so much deliberation I think I will go with option (b). I am sure spinner is a good plane but I am happy to give it a skip for now. It is the most expensive and there is no guarantee it will work as well on flat field as the other planes. Thank you John for clarifying your opinion. I do find it a bit odd at first when you put spinner on your suggested list.

Anyway I will spend the $140 odd dollar I have on a gambler and some new hs 50 servos. I originally intended to get the seeker as well but I think I will get the servos first this time round since I only have some hs 55 left at the moment and they are a bit heavy. Next time I upgrade I will certainly put seeker on top of the list, but I am hoping I can go directly to a taboo xl.....

Thanks again guys. I will keep you posted when my gambler arrives
dimple is offline Find More Posts by dimple
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 12, 2003, 07:41 AM
Registered User
New Zealand
Joined Feb 2003
357 Posts
BTW, the reason I chose gambler over seeker was because the gambler came with a plan, and is within my ability to rebuild if I damage it because it is built up. I admire the seeker for its lightness and its good reputation but I am not sure if I am capable of repairing it if I damage it because it is foam. My good old foamie sloper was EPP reinforced with strapping tape and never really needed repairs. All up the seeker is also more expensive, because not only will I get some new servos I will probably need to get a new rx as well to fit.

I will certainly reconsider a seeker once my skills are better and I have saved up some more.. may be in 1/2 years' time?
dimple is offline Find More Posts by dimple
Last edited by dimple; Jul 12, 2003 at 07:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 20, 2003, 12:48 AM
Registered User
John Gallagher's Avatar
Lindenwold, NJ, USA
Joined Dec 2000
3,163 Posts
Quote:
Ranking based on data
================
Wing loading - lightest to heaviest
EPS red herring 2.35
Extended bug 2.38
Seeker "<3"
Bug 3.1
Miniweasel 3.5
Gambler 3.7
EPP red herring 3.72
My current substandard bug 3.98
Spinner 5.5

Span loading - lightest to heaviest
Seeker 0.31
Gambler 0.41
Extended bug 0.48
Bug 0.58
EPS Red herring 0.59
Spinner 0.6
My current substanard bug 0.74
EPP Red herring 0.93
Miniweasel 1.0


I wanted to look up the span loadings listed by dimple and realised that they were calculated wrong.

(weight/span squared) X 100
Seeker 3.75/(42 X42) X 100
(3.75/1764) X 100 = .213


Seeker - .213
Gambler - .286
Bug ext. - .336
Bug - .402
Red H. - .410
Spinner - .417
Bug 4.5oz- .517
R.H. epp - .649
Mini W. - .712

John
John Gallagher is offline Find More Posts by John Gallagher
Last edited by John Gallagher; Dec 20, 2003 at 12:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 20, 2003, 03:36 AM
Registered User
Seattle ish
Joined May 2003
164 Posts
The answer.... Either buy a lot of aircraft, or find a field with a bunch of flyers so you can see them fly or try them out.

I am very intrigued by wood also. It's great to be able to get the plans out and rebuild something back to perfect.

On the other hand an airfoil without sags between the ribs must account for something (foam or sheeted, or glass whatever).

I had a hard time accepting foam, but after absolutely abusing both a Seeker and a Red Herring, I have come to the conclusion that a really light foam aircraft doesn't carry enough inertia to easily damage itself. I have a few little dings and dents on the leading edge, but I have not noticed any degradation in flight characteristics. They both still fly close to a 1 minute dead air hang time, and they both still catch lots of thermals.

Have fun,

Chris
oxcart400 is offline Find More Posts by oxcart400
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion YAJBT (Yet another Jart build thread) nauga Slope 67 Oct 21, 2007 08:41 PM
Discussion Yet Another Raptor Build Thread A6INTRUDER Slope 22 Apr 07, 2006 09:49 PM
Uh...need a little help. Maybe. Yet another XRB newbie thread... Harv Coaxial Helicopters 17 Apr 02, 2005 12:51 PM
Yet another Dave Drive thread!! Heli Mod Man Electric Heli Talk 19 May 18, 2004 12:20 AM
Yet Another Brushless Switchback Thread 02ViperTwin Parkflyers 89 Oct 22, 2002 02:07 PM