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Old Nov 27, 2010, 01:54 PM
Wisdom can not be granted.
Orion Pax's Avatar
Shreveport Louisiana
Joined Dec 2006
6,300 Posts
Crash!!

Well it had been about 5 weeks since I flew last. I have my F4F Wildcat that I did my retract mod on. The gear is new after a botched landing. Figured th Wildcat would be good to knock the rust off my thumbs. Flew it twice and it was beautiful and trustworthy as always. Figured it was time for the Cessna 310. Put the battery in, let the esc's make their noise, did a range check, and lined up for takeoff. Throttled up gently and as the plane passed me I applied up elevator. She started to climb steeply and drift left, I pulled up the gear and proceeded with the back nine trim sequence. I saw the gear drop back down, motors went silent, she started pitching up and right so I chopped throttle and I was getting no response from the plane. I saw the gear go back up, the plane started to respond, I applied a little throttle and the gear dropped again and she pitched up and right, She is now getting behind me and I am loosing her into the sun. I cut throttle and wait for impact. At the last second I catch her as she is coming out of the sun, nose first and with no throttle and about 30 feet I gave one last effort and yanked on the elevator. She bellied in with a stern thud and slid 2 feet. I knew the gear was gone and the props were lost and the wings were fractured. I get to it and there is no debris field to speak of. I saw the battery hatch and had no problem finding the blades as they were sticking straight out of the ground. I didn't see any foam or gear so I went to the plane and picked her up. When I did the gear cycled down and back up on its own. The only damage is a few wrinkles in the first 1/2" of the nose, 1 wrinkle about 4" back on the nose, the seam on the nose withing that 4" is separating and the nose and 1 wing tip is a little dirty from the soft ground. Minimal effort to repair but some things need to change. I had in a BEC, I did full power tests, I went over this thing with a fine tooth comb, when the gear went to cycle up, that's when it went to crap. Don't know what the deal is but the motors are loud and obnoxious and personally....this will be the absolute last plane I ever fly from a lesser known company with stock electronics.

She is getting an overhaul. I have a friend who is going to be testing a Power 10 setup producing 445 watts @ 38amps of power off of 1 motor on 1 3s 2200 30c discharge. If his is successful then I will be using that setup in the Cessna. It will probably be Spring before I get to it because I am very disappointed in the plane right now and if it had not of been for that last second effort I would be shipping it back to China. I am sick and tired of products that are suppose to fly out of the box from the factory and all we get is junk. For those of you who have had success thus far, congrats, but I am tired of collecting B.S. electronics and packing foam.
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Old Nov 27, 2010, 03:11 PM
Rc Flying is my Sanity!
Fast_Eddy's Avatar
United States, CA, San Jacinto
Joined Mar 2010
487 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Pax View Post
Well it had been about 5 weeks since I flew last. I have my F4F Wildcat that I did my retract mod on. The gear is new after a botched landing. Figured th Wildcat would be good to knock the rust off my thumbs. Flew it twice and it was beautiful and trustworthy as always. Figured it was time for the Cessna 310. Put the battery in, let the esc's make their noise, did a range check, and lined up for takeoff. Throttled up gently and as the plane passed me I applied up elevator. She started to climb steeply and drift left, I pulled up the gear and proceeded with the back nine trim sequence. I saw the gear drop back down, motors went silent, she started pitching up and right so I chopped throttle and I was getting no response from the plane. I saw the gear go back up, the plane started to respond, I applied a little throttle and the gear dropped again and she pitched up and right, She is now getting behind me and I am loosing her into the sun. I cut throttle and wait for impact. At the last second I catch her as she is coming out of the sun, nose first and with no throttle and about 30 feet I gave one last effort and yanked on the elevator. She bellied in with a stern thud and slid 2 feet. I knew the gear was gone and the props were lost and the wings were fractured. I get to it and there is no debris field to speak of. I saw the battery hatch and had no problem finding the blades as they were sticking straight out of the ground. I didn't see any foam or gear so I went to the plane and picked her up. When I did the gear cycled down and back up on its own. The only damage is a few wrinkles in the first 1/2" of the nose, 1 wrinkle about 4" back on the nose, the seam on the nose withing that 4" is separating and the nose and 1 wing tip is a little dirty from the soft ground. Minimal effort to repair but some things need to change. I had in a BEC, I did full power tests, I went over this thing with a fine tooth comb, when the gear went to cycle up, that's when it went to crap. Don't know what the deal is but the motors are loud and obnoxious and personally....this will be the absolute last plane I ever fly from a lesser known company with stock electronics.

She is getting an overhaul. I have a friend who is going to be testing a Power 10 setup producing 445 watts @ 38amps of power off of 1 motor on 1 3s 2200 30c discharge. If his is successful then I will be using that setup in the Cessna. It will probably be Spring before I get to it because I am very disappointed in the plane right now and if it had not of been for that last second effort I would be shipping it back to China. I am sick and tired of products that are suppose to fly out of the box from the factory and all we get is junk. For those of you who have had success thus far, congrats, but I am tired of collecting B.S. electronics and packing foam.
Sorry to hear,,

I maidened mine today but, I had the oppsite happen, Flew like a dream, worked great. Did not use the flaps cause it was breezy, Wish your's could have gone better....

video to follow soon....

Ed
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Old Nov 27, 2010, 04:22 PM
Wisdom can not be granted.
Orion Pax's Avatar
Shreveport Louisiana
Joined Dec 2006
6,300 Posts
Glad you experience was the exact opposite of mine.
I always seem to end up with the B.S. electronics in my import items.
My eRC B-25 was the same way. A bunch of crap electronics in an oversized airframe.

Looking forward to the video. I would put mine up but it is about 5 seconds long with the wife dropping the camera screaming OMG!
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Old Nov 27, 2010, 04:34 PM
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Allelectric's Avatar
Sedona, Arizona
Joined Nov 2006
284 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Pax View Post
Well it had been about 5 weeks since I flew last. I have my F4F Wildcat that I did my retract mod on. The gear is new after a botched landing. Figured th Wildcat would be good to knock the rust off my thumbs. Flew it twice and it was beautiful and trustworthy as always. Figured it was time for the Cessna 310. Put the battery in, let the esc's make their noise, did a range check, and lined up for takeoff. Throttled up gently and as the plane passed me I applied up elevator. She started to climb steeply and drift left, I pulled up the gear and proceeded with the back nine trim sequence. I saw the gear drop back down, motors went silent, she started pitching up and right so I chopped throttle and I was getting no response from the plane. I saw the gear go back up, the plane started to respond, I applied a little throttle and the gear dropped again and she pitched up and right, She is now getting behind me and I am loosing her into the sun. I cut throttle and wait for impact. At the last second I catch her as she is coming out of the sun, nose first and with no throttle and about 30 feet I gave one last effort and yanked on the elevator. She bellied in with a stern thud and slid 2 feet. I knew the gear was gone and the props were lost and the wings were fractured. I get to it and there is no debris field to speak of. I saw the battery hatch and had no problem finding the blades as they were sticking straight out of the ground. I didn't see any foam or gear so I went to the plane and picked her up. When I did the gear cycled down and back up on its own. The only damage is a few wrinkles in the first 1/2" of the nose, 1 wrinkle about 4" back on the nose, the seam on the nose withing that 4" is separating and the nose and 1 wing tip is a little dirty from the soft ground. Minimal effort to repair but some things need to change. I had in a BEC, I did full power tests, I went over this thing with a fine tooth comb, when the gear went to cycle up, that's when it went to crap. Don't know what the deal is but the motors are loud and obnoxious and personally....this will be the absolute last plane I ever fly from a lesser known company with stock electronics.

She is getting an overhaul. I have a friend who is going to be testing a Power 10 setup producing 445 watts @ 38amps of power off of 1 motor on 1 3s 2200 30c discharge. If his is successful then I will be using that setup in the Cessna. It will probably be Spring before I get to it because I am very disappointed in the plane right now and if it had not of been for that last second effort I would be shipping it back to China. I am sick and tired of products that are suppose to fly out of the box from the factory and all we get is junk. For those of you who have had success thus far, congrats, but I am tired of collecting B.S. electronics and packing foam.
O. P.,

Sorry about your incident, glad it was not worse. It reminded me of a mishap I had with my since departed Eflite F-15. Everything was fine after takeoff until I hit the retract switch. From there, I was behind the curve until it well, splat! Turns out it was low voltage causing the 2.4 RX to "brown out", hence a continuous delay in the signal from my TX. Too many servos. On your 310, I would count 5 servos plus 3 more motors on the retracts, right?

When you say, "I had in a BEC", did you mean a separate UBEC? If not, my suggestion would be to disable the BECs on the ESCs and install a 5 amp UBEC. Just my 2 cents. If you do have one, I'm at a loss for suggestions. Keep us posted!

Talk about irony though. I splatted my Wildcat today! It's always been a challenge flying it against a clear-blue sky, but today it completely disappeared, and even two friends watching couldn't find it either! Oh well..........next! LOL! I did maiden my new FMS Hellcat today and it's really sweet! Like it much better than the Wildcat! Flies similar to the PZ Corsair. Flew the 310 again today, and I have to say it's my favorite of them all!

John
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Old Nov 27, 2010, 04:45 PM
Wisdom can not be granted.
Orion Pax's Avatar
Shreveport Louisiana
Joined Dec 2006
6,300 Posts
Yeah I used a separate BEC from Hyperion. That is why I am so perplexed, I disconnected both red wires of the esc RX leads and I soldered in the BEC. There was no room for error. I always put in a BEC when my servo count goes over 4. Oh well, the airframe survived and I will rebuild it. I am looking at a 900 watt setup for it for right at $100. Not sure how long it will fly on a 2200 mah battery but by God it will have power.

Sorry to see your Wildcat go. I love mine. It is still may sweetest flier to date. Even after I installed retractable landing gear and steerable tail wheel her flight characteristics are the same as when she came out of the box.
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Old Nov 28, 2010, 12:58 AM
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Palo Alto, CA, USA
Joined Nov 2000
1,019 Posts
OP, Sorry about your plane. The first time I fired up the motors also I did not like the loud whine but I have had a bunch of people comment on the nice sound. It may be the twin thing. Don't give up too soon. Mine is all stock and it is flying great. I did hover it a couple of times today. Kind of a weird sight As the video showed I have mixed rudder into throttles and one of my favorite stunts is to go into a hover and do a pinwheel stall turn. I may increase the mixing to see if I can get it go completely around. My retract set is on the way from Philip. Hopefully the added weight does not affect the flight characteristics too much. I will add a CC BEC when I install the retracts. Also, I have 15% down elevator compensation for the flaps with a max flap down of about 40 degrees.

FastEddy Congrats on your maiden.
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Old Nov 28, 2010, 11:39 AM
Wisdom can not be granted.
Orion Pax's Avatar
Shreveport Louisiana
Joined Dec 2006
6,300 Posts
Well after talking to some friends of mine I think we have deduced the problem.

The plane, without retracts, flies just fine on the stock equipment. Apparently others who use these cheap Chinese DSR retracts are having brown out issues. Most only notice this after installing the retracts but not a BEC. Most of us know that a BEC is a must after 4 servos. I have a BEC installed on my plane and it still did the brown out situation. Well the BEC I used was out of another plane that acted really funky in flight a few times too. This leads me to believe that the BEC may be bad. In any case I smelled burnt electronics when I was hanging the plane back up last night so the stock equipment is fried. The airframe, thankfully, made it out with just a few scrapes, Nothing some steam and spackle can't solve. I will upgrade my electronics and hopefully will end up with about 900 watts of thrust. Should be fun.

Orion
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Old Nov 28, 2010, 01:51 PM
Rc Flying is my Sanity!
Fast_Eddy's Avatar
United States, CA, San Jacinto
Joined Mar 2010
487 Posts
Here's the video, Not the greatest, but,

Flies great! pretty scale like flight, not a rocket, smooth take off's and landing's, Not sure if i will ever use the flaps........

Flight times look to be in the 6-8 min. range. Thats with a 2200 3S 20C

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H0bDKN9EBk
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Old Nov 28, 2010, 03:21 PM
No, it's a old one
Joined Jul 2006
36 Posts
Sorry to hear about your misfortune Orion Pax. I am sure when you have some time you will make it work. It is sad when we spend hard earned money and get low quality stuff. I have a lot of Tower Pro 9g servos (3.99 to 4.99 ea) and T pro 9g servos (2.77 from Hobby Partz) and they are inexpensive. Although they are cheap they seem to work better that the stuff that comes in the inexpensive planes from China. Makes me wonder how cheap in quality the "cheap" China stuff really is. When I recieved my plane the Rudder Servo was dead. It would not move or make any noise and did not matter what channel it is put on. I resolved the issue with NP and I installed a Tower Pro SG90 in it's place for now. I didnt want to do any upgrades until I was able to see it fly. Friday I got off work early and made it home just befor dark and got the maiden out of the way. I called my friend Don and he recorded it. I think it was a little too dark outside for the camera but you can still see if fly. I have a set of the HobbyKing servoless rectacts but I am concerned on using them. I have some EFlite electric retracts on my Super Airliner and they are GREAT. The HK ones do not work as well at the EFlites. The jury is still out on this one. Anyway here is the vid.
Astra

Astras Cessna 310 Maiden 11-26-2010 (7 min 9 sec)
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Old Nov 28, 2010, 05:32 PM
Wisdom can not be granted.
Orion Pax's Avatar
Shreveport Louisiana
Joined Dec 2006
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Glad to see the plane is flying great for everybody. I may be out of touch for a while on this plane but I will check in from time to time. I'll be back when I get around to making my plane a functioning part of aeronautical society.
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Old Nov 28, 2010, 06:46 PM
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Holtenbacker's Avatar
Modesto, California USA
Joined Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Pax View Post
Well after talking to some friends of mine I think we have deduced the problem.
Orion
From the CC BEC FAQ section question #7- Their BEC will handle 10 amps but the plugs will handle only 5 amps. With that many servos and the 3 electric retracts, you definitely went over that limit. frying your connections (the smell of burned electronics)
http://www.castlecreations.com/suppo...ec.html#ccbec7
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Old Nov 28, 2010, 07:40 PM
Wisdom can not be granted.
Orion Pax's Avatar
Shreveport Louisiana
Joined Dec 2006
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Originally Posted by Holtenbacker View Post
From the CC BEC FAQ section question #7- Their BEC will handle 10 amps but the plugs will handle only 5 amps. With that many servos and the 3 electric retracts, you definitely went over that limit. frying your connections (the smell of burned electronics)
http://www.castlecreations.com/suppo...ec.html#ccbec7
You present an excellent point but lets analyze this for a second.

There is only 1 plug that comes on the CC BEC and that's the one that goes to the RX. So if this plug is only capable of supplying 5 amps to the RX and servos we need to look at the draw that these items have.

1 Futaba 3114s High Torque servo pulls at any given time .1 amps. That means I can have 10 Futaba 3114s servos and it would equal 1 amp if all were in usage at the same time. If I stall the servo out with my hand so it does not move it pulls a max of .3 amps, thus if you have 10 of these servos all stalled out at the same time you would not pull more than 3 amps. Still well withing the 5 amp limit of the plug.

The Dynam Grand Cruiser has 6 servos that are lesser quality than the Futaba 3114 and 3 servoless retracts. That is equivelent to 9 junk servos. One of my junk servos does not even register on the watt meter when I manipulate it with the TX. When I stall it out with my hand so it doesn't move, it shows .2 amps. With the stock setup if for some reason all 9 electrical components stall out it will not register more than 1.8 amps on the watt meter. Well within the 5 amp limit of the plug.

Further proof that this is not the case is that I have a P-38 Which employs 9 High torque servos, 3 E-Flite DSR retracts and 5 programmable navigation lights. I have 1 CC BEC and it flies great. I would put a CC BEC in any plane that needs one without hesitation.

So while you raise a good point and one worth exploring, it really isn't the answer to this problem. Plus I didn't use a CC BEC. It was a Hyperion Sport BEC and it will be the last one I ever buy. I have CC BECs in all of my other planes and will never deviate again regardless of the deal I get on some lesser brands.

Thanks for trying to help.

Orion
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Old Nov 28, 2010, 08:29 PM
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Modesto, California USA
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Good analysis. Have you measured what the draw is on the actual retracts used? Could the lower quality servos and retracts could use more power. I also am not familiar with the specs on the Hyperion BEC It all points to the use of the retracts and resulting brown out on the RX? (too much draw for the electronics and not enough going to the RX?). Were you using the stock TX / RX? Sorry for the inquisition. I'd like to learn what happened so I may possibly avoid an out of control AC and a great looking airplane.
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Old Nov 28, 2010, 08:38 PM
Wisdom can not be granted.
Orion Pax's Avatar
Shreveport Louisiana
Joined Dec 2006
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The junker servos don't pull more that .2 amps stalled out. The retracts are still in the plane so I am not sure. Its hung up right now so I wont get to it till I bring it down for repair. I do have some of the Chang Sung retracts from Hobby king and those don't register on my watt meter till I stall them out and stalled out it registers .1 amps. Still less amp draw that the quality products I typically run. I use a DX7 radio and Spektrum ESCs.
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Old Nov 29, 2010, 12:25 AM
Clear Lake near NASA
United States, TX, Houston
Joined Jul 2010
83 Posts
Some quick advice please?

the ESC's are tied together with a y-cable and both BEC's are hot to that y-cable. I thought one was supposed to be cut (red) and only feed BEC from one ESC.

Then if that was the case would not the ESC supplying the Rx have less current for the motor? See how confused I am???

I am going to run Pillips retracts and flaps so i think I want to just go with the UBEC external BEC tied to the battery. Like the CC BEC yes?

thanks in advance.
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