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Old Nov 19, 2011, 11:56 AM
OOPS
Manta1's Avatar
USA, GA, Cochran
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thanks Doc!!
WE loaded up with the camper and gonna eat a sammich and head for the campground.eatin good,ramon noodles for da wife,pb@J for me,hot dog for he youngest,and a bad of coal for my oldest with the tude today...
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Old Nov 23, 2011, 08:58 PM
bryansifsof44's Avatar
United States, AK, Anchorage
Joined Oct 2011
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Just got back from my maiden, well second maiden as on the first attempt my stupid Du-bro park flyer ski broke off on take off and spent the rest of the flight planning on bringing in a stall. Anyways, do not use Du-bro park flyer skis, I was trying them to keep down on weight but it cut a hole in covering on bottom of wing What I got setup now is the full size Du-bro. I cut and sanded them down and took off 36g of weight. Still more then I wanted to add. They float nice on the snow, so does anyone fly with a other option? Temp was -3 degrees F. I noticed rudder servo seemed slower at that temp. I flew 4 packs worth 7-8 mins a pop.

Plane flies great fast yet slow... plane darn near lands it self with minimal controls. Tumbles are outragous. I will be adding more rudder throw for better KE control, but I am sure the added ski weight doesn't help. What is the recommended max servo endpoints for the HS-65 and 85? I am new to this type of flight but have some sim time, been flying for years on other stuff mainly glow. I am sold. Just can't wait for the chance to fly her with wheels.

Only thing I was having trouble with was with harriers, was having a steady wing rock. Nothing crazy but was like it was in rhythm. I have weight within the recommended, when inverted need VERY little down elevator. Doc, nice flying but I was wondering if you have done something to keep wing level when in a dive and you give full elevator. I tried that but plane seems to drop a wing when I attempt it? (I don't have the extreme throw on elevator you have) Could my issues be from the added weight from the skies?

Setup:
Torque 2814 820 12x6e apc
Phoenix 45
CC bec
HS-65mg wing
HS-85mg ele.
Batt. turnigy nano 2650, 30C 2650, 20C 2650

Static test I get 688w with nano tech, 678w with the 30C, and 630 with the 20C.
Threw a 13x6.5e for grins and giggles and was getting 890 with a peak of 55 amps. This is what the watt meter saved do you guys use peak or continuous for results? Weight of batteries are 278g nano rech, 316g 30C, and 303g for the 20C. I am really impressed with performance per weight of the nano and the 20C is noticeably weaker, so I think I will get rid of it. Experimenting with batteries. What do you guys recommend for a economical but dependable battery if there is such a thing? Do you recommend smaller batteries?

Thanks
Bryan
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Old Nov 23, 2011, 09:11 PM
TEAM EXTREME FLIGHT
Doc Austin's Avatar
USA, FL, Largo
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Siiiiiiiiiiiick!
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Old Nov 23, 2011, 09:16 PM
Facts, Logic, 3D
Tom K.'s Avatar
Florida
Joined Nov 2010
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Where's your CG? Too far ahead (nose heavy) of neutral and you'll get some weird flight characteristics in high alpha. Too tail heavy and it will be really really weird. Neutral (hands off inverted level flight) or slightly ahead of neutral (dives ever-so slowly when inverted) is ideal. If your CG is within that range, try increasing your AOA (angle of attack). If you are below about 30 degrees, you can be moving at a rate and angle of attack that allows the wings (or one of the wings) to regain flight, rise, slow down as it rises, stall, and as that wing falls it picks up speed, regains flight again, and this leads to the ongoing phenomena we know as wing rock. Try increasing your angle of attack so there is no way either wing will regain flight.

Same thing for the parachutes (dive then full elevator). If you crank it hard with an extreme amount of elevator, the plane will quickly rotate and stall the wings allowing for a smooth transition. If you don't have enough throw, you could be allowing for one wing to stall before the other.

...or you could have a heavy wing, but I'd check/try these first.

--Tom K.
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Old Nov 23, 2011, 09:20 PM
Facts, Logic, 3D
Tom K.'s Avatar
Florida
Joined Nov 2010
3,585 Posts
As far as batteries go, the Sky Lipos are really really good available from www.hobbypartz.com and the Gens Ace batteries (also from hobbypartz) are extremely good. There was some battery analysis somewhere (I heard of it, never saw it though) that said Thunder Power 45C's were almost identical on voltage sag and internal resistance (main factors when determining battery performance) to the Gens Ace 25C's, next came the Sky Lipo 30 or 40C (I don't remember), then below that were the blue turnigy's, blue lipo, rhino, etc.

I've been using the Sky Lipos and I really like them. I have yet to try the Gens Ace... but all that is holding me back is getting time to solder my connectors onto them.

--Tom K.
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Old Nov 23, 2011, 09:43 PM
Poiltics is a Contact Sport
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SnowBird looks great!
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 01:06 AM
bryansifsof44's Avatar
United States, AK, Anchorage
Joined Oct 2011
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CG is center of the recommended in manual. When inverted I need small down elevator input... throttle position observation wasn't precise but will go through the some of the techniques posted earlier in this thread. I do appreciate the comments and remarks. As far as the parachute that totally makes sense as I was noticing this in more of a gradually applied elevator, and with the harrier i think the wings were bouncing back and forth from stall to flight creating the rhythmic wing rock. I will increase alfa angle and post how it went.
I will try to get some airtime in the morning... haven't been flying a lot as it gets dark here by 5pm and when I get off from work to late. I am excited to fly during the holiday break, and this plane makes me that much more excited.

Was wondering what you guys are running for throws and expos? I've seen some but would like to get a concensus on what others are running.

Bryan
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 01:08 AM
bryansifsof44's Avatar
United States, AK, Anchorage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyCush View Post
SnowBird looks great!
And it actually performs very good in snow, very smooth in 2-4 inches!
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 04:48 AM
bryansifsof44's Avatar
United States, AK, Anchorage
Joined Oct 2011
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So here is my dilemma... I was trying to fallow advice from this thread and the consensus seamed to be as much rudder throw without hitting elevator... well for me on the pull of the rudder the servo has a little room left on the end point but the control arm to the rudder straightens out where it won't allow servo to pull any more. (see pic) The push I could run my endpoints all the way out with out binding. The pull I can't get past 100%. Are you guys modifying anything?
Doc, what mod did you do to get all that elevator throw. BTW, nice article.
Thanks
Bryan
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 08:21 AM
Facts, Logic, 3D
Tom K.'s Avatar
Florida
Joined Nov 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansifsof44 View Post
Was wondering what you guys are running for throws and expos? I've seen some but would like to get a concensus on what others are running.
Glad you're having fun! I don't own this plane(but I have three Edge EXP's and an Extra), but all my planes have an extremely similar setup which is 30%expo (-30% on Futaba) with about 35 degrees of aileron, as much elevator as I can get, and enough rudder so it is parallel to the elevator at full deflection (that's about as far as I can get without the pushrod binding on the control arm).

--Tom K.
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 08:56 AM
TEAM EXTREME FLIGHT
Doc Austin's Avatar
USA, FL, Largo
Joined Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansifsof44 View Post
Doc, what mod did you do to get all that elevator throw.
One question: If you take the servo arm off the servo, can the rudder move more than it does now? Whenever I have a problem with the surface not moving right I always check the range of motion. If you hinge too tight that can restrict movement.

Mine looks just like yours. All I can think of to check on yours is to make sure the arm is perfectly centered. Get it as close as you can by positioning, and then use the sub trims to dial it in dead straight. That way you will have equal throw in both directions. If it's not centered, that can screw up the geometry. Outside of that, it is really hard to tell without looking at it in person and seeing it in action.

The way it is now, you've only got about 5-10 degrees left before the control horn hits the fuselage side, so there ain't that much more to get. Even if you fly it the way it is, that's still a good amount of rudder. I'll look at mine later today, but I don't think I get much more throw than you are getting.

Glad to see the MXS thread getting some action. I think all the MXS pilots have been out flying all week instead of on their computers! I've had my Project Blue MXS out every day this week and it's been a blast.
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 09:26 AM
TEAM EXTREME FLIGHT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansifsof44 View Post
What is the recommended max servo endpoints for the HS-65 and 85?
I try to max out my end points on everything because that gives you higher resolution and a smoother feel. If I have to turn the end points back too much because the surface is binding, or has too much movement, I will take the throw out mechanically and turn the end points back up.

Quote:
I am new to this type of flight but have some sim time, been flying for years on other stuff mainly glow.
Get Scott Stoop's Mastering Radio controlled Flight. I look at my copy almost every day. It's been an enormous part of my development as a 3D pilot.

Quote:
Only thing I was having trouble with was with harriers, was having a steady wing rock. Nothing crazy but was like it was in rhythm.
The MXS can rock a little if your technique is bad. I get some rock out of mine, but it is, like you say, rythmic and didn't really effect the plane's heading or control. It's sort of like a little dance.

Your's might be pilot induced. Like you say, you're new to this, so you are going to have little imperfections in your technique. Work you harrtier over and over and over until you are blue in the face (or your hands are frozen). It is a crucial skiill to 3D, and it is completely foreign to what you learned sport flying.

Practise your harrier the first flight of every day, and do nothing but harrier. Pretty soon you'll get it, and it will be so much fun that it will be all you want to do. I don't practise harrier any more because about 75% of my flights are in harrier anyway.

Quote:
I have weight within the recommended, when inverted need VERY little down elevator.
I like them to drop a little. Part of it is that I have conditioned myself to remember I am upside down by feeling the stick pressure when I push forward. Also, if they are a little bit forward of neutral, they track and groove better at high speed.

Quote:
Doc, nice flying but I was wondering if you have done something to keep wing level when in a dive and you give full elevator.
I try to build a straight airplane. That's the best thing you can do. Outside of that, be careful to pull straight back and not accidentially add any aileron. And....... for Gawd's sake, stay off the rudder!

Quote:
I tried that but plane seems to drop a wing when I attempt it? (I don't have the extreme throw on elevator you have)
Maybe you don't have enough and the plane is just falling off. The idea is to rotate the plane so hard and so fast that both wings stall instantly. If you rotate slower or less violently, that just gives one wing time to stall before the other, and it only takes about a half second. That can definately drop a wing. When you rotate the plane hard in a wall or parachute, it has to be all you've got. I'de suggest you run no less than 50 degrees on the elevator.

Best bet is to get a pitch guage that measures in degrees. Then you can dial the set up in perfectly and there is no guessing.

Also remember that there is no such thing as "mild 3D," and a "mild 3D set up" is asking for trouble. Anything less than full throws and full expo is a plane that is not agile enough for 3D, and too twitchy for sport flying. You gotta run the set up that the manual gives you. Later on down the road you can play around with your expos, but if you are new to 3D, you need the big expo or you will be getting into trouble right away.

Quote:
Could my issues be from the added weight from the skies?
If one is heavier than the other, absolutely.
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 09:44 AM
Facts, Logic, 3D
Tom K.'s Avatar
Florida
Joined Nov 2010
3,585 Posts
Bryan,

Now that I gave your photo a second glance... that's all you are going to get. Notice how the pushrod is straight? The servo is going to pull that pushrod in a straight line and due to the curvature of the control horn, all the servo will be doing from that point is trying to pull the control horn out of the rudder. I'd stop there.

--Tom K.
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 10:02 AM
TEAM EXTREME FLIGHT
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USA, FL, Largo
Joined Dec 2005
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I had to back my end point off a little because the control horn was digging into the fuselage. The supplied servo arm extension is just about perfect, but you have to center the servo arm to get equal throw in both directions.

Bryan, can you post a pic of the servo with the radio on? The second picture is what you want it to look like.
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Last edited by Doc Austin; Nov 24, 2011 at 10:09 AM.
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Old Nov 24, 2011, 01:16 PM
bryansifsof44's Avatar
United States, AK, Anchorage
Joined Oct 2011
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Sorry but I don't know how to do the individual quotes (one-liners).

Tom, thats what I was thinking, the control arm is pulling in a strait line and physically can't go further. Endpoint is 100% on Futaba, I know Doc you said to take it out physically to eliminate resolution, so do I set max endpoints and drill holes in the control arms to get rid of the physical restraint. Darn because I was looking for a little more rudder authority in KE.

Doc, Rudder without rod connected could move freely until control arm actually hits fuselage. Notice gap between arm and fuselage in photo, that was as far as the servo would move it. I could move it manually with no problem, but since rod was strait with arm it couldn't go any further on the servos pull.

As far as elevator, I maxed out the endpoints and it was able to handle that and I will be using your guy's techniques on parachute today. Still nothing like your 88 degree throw doc. It is as much as the supplied arms and the radio gear (futaba + HS-85mg) would allow. BTW, any of you have experience with the Hi-tec Aurora 9? I was wanting to start integrating telemetry to monitor batteries. A flying buddy of mine is using a DX8 + telemetry with success.

Ski weigh exactly the same down to the gram... I was actually proud of this as I didn't need to adjust any for difference after i modified them. I just didn't want to add a lot of weight.

I like the graphics on the blue MXS you have Doc... the white SFG's are sweet, where do I get some? I do appreciate you guys insight.

Thanks
Bryan
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