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Old Sep 01, 2010, 03:33 PM
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Best Lipo Charger for 3S-5S Lipos?

After spending HOURS on here, god theres so much info your eyes can get crossed reading here, lol, I think I narrowed it down to two chargers that can grow with my 3DHS Airplanes:

Hyperion EOS 0615i

iCharger 208B or possibley spend alittle more for the 3010b

I fly mostey 3DHS airplanes, from a 51" slick, to bigger ones, in the near future such as their 70" Slicks

I was using the Triton EQ2, which I sold, and now I need a good charger to grow with my flying needs.

Any suggestions on either charger?

Also what else is needed, do I need a power supply for the feild, and deep cycle battery's?

Whats the total cost of everything.

What I DONT want to end up doing, is spending a grand in chargers, batterys, etc to fly my planes

Thanks for your help!
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Old Sep 01, 2010, 11:17 PM
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Ok so less than $1000 but how much less? How much for the charging solution vs the batteries?

All three you mention are good candidates and I would throw in the FMA PL8 as a fourth well worth considering.

How much you spend will be influenced by how fast you want to be able to recharge batteries (a) at home and (b) at the field.

If you aim to fly a 70" model my guess is you will be looking at 6S 5000 lipos.
To charge a 6S 5000 lipo at 1C requires about 5A/120W charger output power and 150W charger input power.

So if you are happy to charge one battery at a time at 1C and wait up to an hour for each charging cycle then the EOS0615i (6S, 250W/15A) will do the job. Combine that with a cheap 13.8V/20A PS and you will be set on the bench.

If you would like to be able to charge at 3C (15A) and complete a single pack in about 20minutes or less, then you need 15A/360W charger output and 15V/450W input. The iC208B (8S, 350W/20A) combined with a Junsi PS350 will get you close, delivering about 320W output.

If you would like to charge at 5C (25A,600W) or two packs in parallel at 3C (30A, 720W) you are into the iC3010B and PL8 territory and will need a 24V PS.

The faster you can charge packs, the fewer packs you need to own, so the economics can work in your favour spending more on the charging solution (which is enduring) and less on the batteries (which are consumable).
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Old Sep 02, 2010, 06:27 AM
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Thanks for helping me understand !

I definatley want to be able to charge them more quicker. I had the Trition EQ2, and it would take over 90 min to charge a 3S lipo, it drove me nuts !

Do the chargers you mentioned work off 110 at home? Or are they 12V only?

Also charging the battery faster, I've read they catch on fire, so is it ok to charge at 3C, and how do you set the charger when charging to do that?

Also when your charging at a higher rate, is the battery being balanced?

Thanks for your help, I didnt want to spend $300 on a charger, and not be able to do all my charging needs
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Old Sep 02, 2010, 07:08 AM
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Sounds like you are fairly new to all this so I strongly recommend you spend time reading the reference material at the start of this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1287041

* Yes, fire is a significant risk with LiPo batteries and until you understand proper handling and charging rules and have read and understood the charger manual you should not attempt to use a high power charger.

* There are no reasonably priced high-power chargers that have built-in AC power supplies, they are all DC-input. Any chargers rated for more than about 250W output require more than 12V input to deliver the full output. Some need 15V, some 18V and some 24V. For example the iC208 will deliver about 280W output from a 12V/26A supply and the full 350W from a 15V/26A supply. The iC2010 and PL8 will both deliver 500W from a 12V/50A supply and 1000W from a 24V/50A supply.

When charging at high power you can choose to charge or balance charge but you must always have the balance lead connected so that the charger can monitor the per-cell voltages and throttle back the charge current if needed.

You might find this useful:
Quote:
Which power supply for my 1000W charger?
========================================
kgfly 10 Jul 2010

Why you need more power in than you want to get out
Chargers are not 100% efficient so you will always need more total input power than the maximum output power you want to use. A useful guideline is to assume 80% efficiency (bad chargers are as low as 70%, good ones are over 90%).

Hence to obtain 1000W output you will need at least 1000/0.8 = 1250W input.

Most power supplies built to a budget are not designed to run at their full rated output for long periods. Under high loads they tend to run hot and heat degrades electronic components leading to a shorter lifetime. Hence it makes sense to select a PS that is rated above the highest continuous load you anticipate. 20% headroom is a useful guideline.

Hence for a long life for a 1250W continuous load you would look for a 1500W PS.

Why 12V to 15V is not enough
While the difference between the input voltage and the output voltage has some influence on the efficiency of the switched mode power converter, that is not the reason you need more than 15V to achieve full output power. The limiting factor is the charger's maximum rated input current.

Most of the existing chargers in the 300W to 600W range are limited to around 22A to 24A input.

The current crop of 1000W chargers are rated for a maximum of 50A input. This means that the maximum achievable output power is given by:

12V x 50A x 0.8 = 500W @ 12V
24V x 50A x 0.8 = 1000W @ 24V

Increasing the input voltage further will not increase the output power above the rated maximum output but will reduce the input current needed to achieve the full rated output which will in turn improve the efficiency somewhat, lowering internal losses in the charger and hence requiring less cooling.

So why rate chargers for more than 24V input?
The reason some chargers are rated for inputs above 24V is not to achieve higher efficiency, although that is a side benefit, but rather to allow them to be powered from Pb batteries which for 12S (eg two 12V Pb in series) can be up to 28V fully charged or for 18S (three 12V Pb in series) up to 42V fully charged.

Hence Hyperion and Junsi chargers in the 250W to 350W range released over the past couple of years have been rated for up to 28V input.

All the updated/new Hyperion chargers coming out later this year in the 250W to 1000W range are rated for up to 29V input.

The new 3010B (10S, 1000W/30A) is rated for up to 38V which is usable with three 12V Pb in series that are not fully float charged.

The FMA PL8 is AFAIK rated for up to 24V.

So what PS to buy for my shiny new 1000W output charger?
This is a tough question to answer if money is a factor. There are not yet any low cost off-the-shelf solutions (and there may not be, 50A-rated electronics are not cheap) and most cost as much or more than the chargers themselves.

The Meanwell RSP-1500-27 (27V/56A, 1512W) is one candidate. This PS has Power Factor Correction (PFC) which is an important feature at these power levels and particularly so if you are running off a small generator.

Another option is the Mastech 3050EX (30V/50A, 1500W). Since this is a proper benchtop supply rather than a raw SMPS it is a much safer and more convenient choice for most users.

If you can accept less than 1000W output the number of options increases.

Up to 500W output
There are some hobby PS now coming available that are around the 15V/40A range so should support towards 500W charger output. They can be hard to find.

In addition I recently learned that the new generation PC power supplies (ATX 12V v2.2/2.3) in the range 750W and above are capable of providing 12V/50A for under $150. They have the advantage of being widely available, inherently safe (no exposed AC or DC terminals, over-current/over-temp protection etc), use standard AC leads and have large fans so may not be too noisy. Some also have PFC. The Corsair CMPSU-650TX is one example.

Up to 750W output
The Mastech 3030EX (0-30V/0-30A, 900W) is a lot less expensive than the 3050EX and will still get you over 700W output.

The MRGN-900 (0-30V/0-30A, 900W) is similarly an interesting candidate.

Of course there is also the Meanwell SE-1000-24 (24V,42A/1000W) or its PFC cousin the RSP-1000-27 (27V,37A/999W) to be found. To see the full range of Meanwell supplies and their specifications, look here: http://www.meanwelldirect.co.uk/rang.../5/default.htm

Is there a low cost option?
For those with the interest, knowledge and skills, it is possible to build a safe 24V PS relatively cheaply (under $100) using two server PS in series. This thread shows how it can be done safely: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=183
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Old Sep 02, 2010, 09:12 AM
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common wisdom also applies here.

"Good - fast- cheap", is just not gonna happen'
pick any two.
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Old Sep 02, 2010, 11:38 AM
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I just bought the 51" Slick, which takes 3S 2600mah lipos, and I'll be buying a 70" eletric plane here soon also, which will be either two 3S lipos parrell together, or a 5-6S brink, not sure until I buy it all at that time

So with these taken into considerations, do I really need a 1000 watt charger/PS ?

Also how are you getting more then 12v at the feild? Running two
deep cycle batteries @ 12v a pc?

I didnt want to have to be lugging two deep cycle batteries around, plus chargers, PS, just to fly a 70" plane that weighs around 7 lbs , that seems way over kill. And I dont want to buy 4 batteries for each plane either, @ $100 bucks a pop or more

I dont mind spending $500 on a charger and PS, but then I need all the 12v batteries to support the input I guess, geez, this is allot , with Nitro, I just gas the plane and fly
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Old Sep 02, 2010, 08:45 PM
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Again, it is up to you how many packs you want to charge at a time and how fast and hence how much charger power you need/want.

Yes, to get maximum charger output at the field you either need a 2000W generator + 24V/1200W PS or a pair of 12V deep-cycle Pb in series to give 24V. Of course just because the charger is capable of 1000W doesn't mean you have to use it all. You can economize on the power source and simply accept a lower limit on the charging power.

Consider...

Charging a 3S 2600 lipo at 3C needs about 100W@8A charger output.
Charging a 3S2P 5200 at 3C needs about 200W@16A charger output.
Charging a 5S 5000 at 3C needs about 300W@15A charger output.
Charging a 6S 5000 at 3C needs about 360W@15A charger output.

So a good solution for you could be your choice amongst iC208B (8S, 350W/20A), iC3010B(10S, 1000W/30A) and PL8 (8S, 1000W/30A) together with a P350 (or perhaps a Corsair CMPSU-650TX) PS for home and a single 12V Pb for field. That solution will give you over 300W charging at home and up to 500W at the field (either of the 1000W chargers plus a BIG Pb) which seems it would meet your anticipated needs.
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Old Sep 02, 2010, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgfly View Post
Again, it is up to you how many packs you want to charge at a time and how fast and hence how much charger power you need/want.

Yes, to get maximum charger output at the field you either need a 2000W generator + 24V/1200W PS or a pair of 12V deep-cycle Pb in series to give 24V. Of course just because the charger is capable of 1000W doesn't mean you have to use it all. You can economize on the power source and simply accept a lower limit on the charging power.

Consider...

Charging a 3S 2600 lipo at 3C needs about 100W@8A charger output.
Charging a 3S2P 5200 at 3C needs about 200W@16A charger output.
Charging a 5S 5000 at 3C needs about 300W@15A charger output.
Charging a 6S 5000 at 3C needs about 360W@15A charger output.

So a good solution for you could be your choice amongst iC208B (8S, 350W/20A), iC3010B(10S, 1000W/30A) and PL8 (8S, 1000W/30A) together with a P350 (or perhaps a Corsair CMPSU-650TX) PS for home and a single 12V Pb for field. That solution will give you over 300W charging at home and up to 500W at the field (either of the 1000W chargers plus a BIG Pb) which seems it would meet your anticipated needs.
Thanks for your help, its greatley appreicated. After reading your post on the forms on the PL8 having a better balancing then the 3010B, I'm going to call david tomorrow at progressiverc and order the PL8

I spent 3 hours tonight on the phone with a good friend, and he explained how to figure out all the charging needs I would, and like you, he said I could either go with two deep sea cycle batteries, and just use those, or one deep cycle battery, and have a PS for the home.

One thing we couldnt figure out is, a deep cycle battery lets says has 850 cca, but how many amps would it supply for charging constant for a total of two hours charging time ( estimate of how long of charging vs flying at the feild )

I think for now, I'll go with the PL8, and go with one deep cycle battery, and when I buy my next bigger plane, and I'm going to run two 4S batteries in parrelle, I'll buy the next marine battery. For now , I'll only be charging one battery at a time. The problem is when i get into bigger packs, and run them in parrelle and want to charge them in parelle, then I'll need 24v and 1000 watts
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Old Sep 02, 2010, 11:21 PM
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Cold cranking amps (CCA) is a measure that is usually prominently quoted for starting or hybrid batteries. A real deep cycle battery should have an amp hour rating or a reserve rating from which you can calculate amp hours. (There is no conversion from CCA, which is a rate, to AH which is a capacity.)

Then adjust for the voltage difference and the efficiency of the charger's voltage conversion (~80%) and you know how many charges you can get. By the way most deep cycle batteries still don't like to be more than half-way discharged. (There are a few exceptions) so factor that in.
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Old Sep 03, 2010, 11:33 AM
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Read this to understand about Pb batteries: http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

You will probably need one in the 75 to 125 AH range depending upon how many batteries you want to charge in a day at the field.
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Old Sep 03, 2010, 03:08 PM
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I just bought from Dave at progressive rc, the PL8 charger, and the 1000 watt power supply. I also ordered a Honda EU 2000 generator

I started off not wanting to spend over $1K, and ended up at $1,700.00

( we needed the generator for our boat for A/C in the summer time anyway ) So this just gave me an excuse to buy one

Thanks all for your help, looks like I have allot of reading now to do
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Old Sep 03, 2010, 06:41 PM
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Cool setup! Enjoy. Post back in a while when you have had a chance to use it and share your impressions.

I presume David advised you about accessories such as the FUIM3 PC interface cable (needed for software upgrades, data logging and fancy setups) and the Safe-Parallel charge-Adapters (SPA)?
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Old Sep 03, 2010, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgfly View Post
Cool setup! Enjoy. Post back in a while when you have had a chance to use it and share your impressions.

I presume David advised you about accessories such as the FUIM3 PC interface cable (needed for software upgrades, data logging and fancy setups) and the Safe-Parallel charge-Adapters (SPA)?
10/4, He walked me through everything, the charger, PS , all the charging cables for paralle charging, I was on the phone with him for a 1/2 hour, their the best!

I cant wait to use the software either via USB

Thanks for your help, I REALLY appreciate it!
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Old Sep 04, 2010, 08:32 AM
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You are welcome
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Old Sep 04, 2010, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgfly View Post
Cool setup! Enjoy. Post back in a while when you have had a chance to use it and share your impressions.

I presume David advised you about accessories such as the FUIM3 PC interface cable (needed for software upgrades, data logging and fancy setups) and the Safe-Parallel charge-Adapters (SPA)?
Does the PL8 have a means of bosting volts?

My wife didnt want to spend $1,200 on the generator right now, so I'm back to maybe buying a deep cycle battery.

I ordered a PS with the charger, so I was thinking of going to the feild with 3 charged packs, and maybe having to charge them one more time each at the feild.

If I were to buy one deep cycle battery, which is 12 volts, and the packs are 4S, which is 14.8 volts, would I be able to charge them at the feild?

Or am I back to buying two deep cycle batteries to have 24 volts?

If thats the case, I'll just get the generator now then, as either way we needed it, we just didnt need it right now, we were thinking of getting it before next summer for the A/C for the cabin on our boat.

I'm going back to the store now to see if they have the Honda EU200 on sale for this weekend
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