HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Feb 03, 2012, 07:29 PM
Registered User
capteasy's Avatar
USA, Texas Hill Country
Joined May 2008
1,774 Posts
Dave,
With your experience and background, Horizon should take stock in your problem - at least they're customer service history reflects that. I would hope they should send a replacement airframe.
I hope you can get it resolved , best of luck with it in any case.
Dick
capteasy is online now Find More Posts by capteasy
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: E-flite hawker Hurricane 25E
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Feb 04, 2012, 01:42 AM
Registered User
Gamerjoe's Avatar
United States, CA, Diamond Bar
Joined Jul 2011
514 Posts
Well... After a couple of weeks of having good fun flying my P-51B, mine finally exhibited the crazy tip stall-spin that you see on many of the videos and stories on this thread. I was making the final approach turn at 50% like I always do, and this time the plane decided to drop a wing violently and spin nose first to the ground. The only thing left of the plane that is salvageable is the main wing.

Time to strip out all the electronics and forget about this crazy plane. I think I will get one of those new FMS FW190A's that are coming out, and put my Power 32 motor in it.
Gamerjoe is offline Find More Posts by Gamerjoe
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 02:13 AM
Balsa&Tissue
payne9999's Avatar
United States, OR, Beaverton
Joined Jan 2011
2,392 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamerjoe View Post
Well... After a couple of weeks of having good fun flying my P-51B, mine finally exhibited the crazy tip stall-spin that you see on many of the videos and stories on this thread. I was making the final approach turn at 50% like I always do, and this time the plane decided to drop a wing violently and spin nose first to the ground. The only thing left of the plane that is salvageable is the main wing.

Time to strip out all the electronics and forget about this crazy plane. I think I will get one of those new FMS FW190A's that are coming out, and put my Power 32 motor in it.
Joe,

Are you sure the plane is not rebuildable? Believe it or not I just did my third rebuild today. I did some careful examination of the plane and I found something interesting:

1. The elevator surfaces can twist independent of one another with just a slight wiggle of the main pushrod.

2. Each surface can flex in relation to the other and quite easily.


This could, under the right circumstances turn the airplane into a spin by rolling it at low speed. I am not saying this with a lot of confidence yet but I wonder if it could be a factor and if there is some degree of variability....in-other-words are some planes flexing between the two elevator surfaces more than others?

I am not happy with the elevator linkage and I made some adjustments in mine but I still worry about it so I am going to sleep on it and try to come up with a way to stiffen the pushrod system or link the two surfaces together.

Also, I am going to try an old trick I learned years ago:

-add 2-3 degrees of up reflex in the ailerons to add some washout. These wings have zero washout. By adjusting the ailerons so at neutral positions (center stick) both are up ever so slightly this will help stop a certain amount of tip stalling.

BTW, each time I smashed mine into the ground I thought it was toast and unrepairable but it wasn't. Last time I flew it the canopy was peiced together with super glue and the cowling had been caved in. I got a new cowl and canopy today so it looks almost new again. I sure hope it doesn't auger in a 4th time. This time I am going to video the setup details, balancing and other pre-flight tests. I WILL NOT be told again by somebody at Horizon that it is tail heavy when it isn't and it flies like it has 10 lb's of lead in the nose (until I slow it down)!

I am still pursuing my own design in CAD. Started working with the Uncle Willies plans drawings today.

Best Wishes,

Dave
payne9999 is online now Find More Posts by payne9999
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 02:59 AM
Registered User
Gamerjoe's Avatar
United States, CA, Diamond Bar
Joined Jul 2011
514 Posts
I may try to fix it, but the fuselage snapped in half right now. The canopy hatch is also toast. The only good things left are the tail section and the main wing.

It was just very frustrating to turn the plane in a normal fashion, like I have done a dozen times for landing, and it decides to spin to the ground. Makes me wonder if the work is even worth it. I like a plane that I can at least trust to make a simple turn at 50% throttle. I was really starting to like this plane too.

I wil be thinking about it for a few days.
Gamerjoe is offline Find More Posts by Gamerjoe
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 08:37 AM
Got the Slickness
gabrielisrael's Avatar
Seattle, WA
Joined Jul 2010
2,514 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by payne9999 View Post
Well, I don't really know what the answer is for my P-51 but I have tried on 8 occasions now and I cannot figure out what is wrong. I am glad many folks have had good luck with this plane but I am thinking it is going to be my last ARF.

In 30 years time I have built hundreds of planes from rubber powered FF Comet models to .60 size aerobatic scale models. Nothing I ever built myself failed to fly correctly. Sometimes I had to make adjustments but nothing perplexing like this.

I bought some scale drawings from Uncle Willie and I own a CAD system so the next phase of my P-51B project is to design one myself from drawings and other reference models.

Here is the thing for me:
If Mountain Models can design a 40" P-51 with retracts that weighs 19.5 ounces then why does a 52" model need to weigh 5.5-6 lbs and need a .32 (that really has the power of about a .46)?
I Built the Mountain Models P-51 but I am after a somewhat bigger model and that is why the E-Flite was attractive to me.




Just something I am wondering......


Dave

P.S. I spent a bunch of time on the phone with Horizon and they were supposed to discuss it with the designer of the plane and it has been 3 days now and no response. Their support has been superb in the past.
Nice... I wish someone had this in a larger airframe!
gabrielisrael is offline Find More Posts by gabrielisrael
RCG Plus Member
Old Feb 04, 2012, 10:20 AM
Registered User
V2rider's Avatar
USA, MD, Hagerstown
Joined Jun 2009
3,255 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielisrael View Post


Nice... I wish someone had this in a larger airframe!
How much bigger do you want? The H9 40 size could be changed to match that scheme fairly easy.
V2rider is offline Find More Posts by V2rider
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 10:37 AM
Balsa&Tissue
payne9999's Avatar
United States, OR, Beaverton
Joined Jan 2011
2,392 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielisrael View Post


Nice... I wish someone had this in a larger airframe!
I don't know how successful I will be but I plan to do a 53" "B" model and "D" model. I have always wanted to size up the MM P-51. No one makes a really efficient P-51 in 50" or up. They all become bricks after 40" or so and the wing loading is just too high or you end up with a choice of flying a brick or packing material (EPO). Sorry, but I hate foamies! Gotta dust off my vacuum former and figure out how to make canopy molds.

Pat Tritle is one of the best designers out there and he does lots of planes at 50"-60" and all are under about 30 ounces. So far he does almost exclusively civilian planes but what I would like to do is a few warbirds that fly that good. I am going to attempt it. I have been an engineer for many years and have designed lots of other stuff so I am going to give it a whirl.

Dave
payne9999 is online now Find More Posts by payne9999
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 10:38 AM
Balsa&Tissue
payne9999's Avatar
United States, OR, Beaverton
Joined Jan 2011
2,392 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by V2rider View Post
How much bigger do you want? The H9 40 size could be changed to match that scheme fairly easy.
Wing loading is too high.

D.
payne9999 is online now Find More Posts by payne9999
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 10:43 AM
It's Not Too Windy...Man Up
ALL American's Avatar
USA, CT, Wallingford
Joined Oct 2009
1,458 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielisrael View Post


Nice... I wish someone had this in a larger airframe!

Is this what you're looking for?

http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/items/ESMP51B-71AAF.html

http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/items/ESMP51D-71FAF.html
ALL American is offline Find More Posts by ALL American
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 10:46 AM
Balsa&Tissue
payne9999's Avatar
United States, OR, Beaverton
Joined Jan 2011
2,392 Posts
I have a 4 engine DC-6B that is 60" wingspan and weighs with battery, ready to roll down the runway at 29 ounces. This is an example of an efficient design. Maybe this is radical but a P-51 that is 53" doesn't really need to weigh almost 6 lbs. I have flown this plane on about 60 "missions" now with only one incident ( a motor failure that restricted throttle response to all motors) and even then I was able to bring the plane back in one peice.



My DC-6B uses (4) 50 watt motors that run most of the time at 1/2 throttle and rarely at 3/4.

Another example: A C-310 twin that is 54" and 30 ounces running on two Park 370 motors (max power 80 watts/motor). I have over 80 "missions" on this one and NEVER one bit of damage. You can horse this thing around the sky and do steep short landings all day.



Dave
payne9999 is online now Find More Posts by payne9999
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 10:48 AM
Balsa&Tissue
payne9999's Avatar
United States, OR, Beaverton
Joined Jan 2011
2,392 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALL American View Post
I love it but I wish the wing loading was about 12oz./ft2 or even 14 but over 2 lbs/ft2??

Dave
payne9999 is online now Find More Posts by payne9999
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 10:53 AM
Registered User
Joined Dec 2011
33 Posts
Pane9999 try looking at worlds model p51 ep 40 . This plane wing spand is 49 inch weight is 3.5 pounds . it is my best plane todate got about 8 flights. the plane has been out a few years. Balsa / litecote. hope this helps ? Fly with a smile.
free bird is offline Find More Posts by free bird
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 11:05 AM
It's Not Too Windy...Man Up
ALL American's Avatar
USA, CT, Wallingford
Joined Oct 2009
1,458 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by payne9999 View Post
I love it but I wish the wing loading was about 12oz./ft2 or even 14 but over 2 lbs/ft2??

Dave

Dave,

I have one of these ESM Warbirds on my list. They are really top quality ARF's. Of course, conversion to electric power increases the wing loading substantially, but I'm in this hobby to be challenged. The more I'm challenged, the more I get out of this. I prefer the higher wing loadings because the wind penetration and stability is greatly enhanced, versus the lightweights that get blown around. Also, I find it much more rewarding to fly a plane that keeps me on my toes and has to be flown right to the ground.

Years ago, I flew planes like Clancy Lazy Bees and sailplanes like the Airtronics Eclipse with Astro Flight Geared 05 motors. The wing loadings were fairly light. I could trim the Eclipse to fly around in circles while I sat in a lawn chair sipping Iced Tea and I watched my plane fly itself. Today I prefer a little more excitement. The thought that I could crash my P51B by making a novice mistake just makes each successful flight that much more rewarding. If I ever crash it I'll only have myself to blame. If this hobby ever stops being challenging that's when I'll want a break from it.

But that's me!

Regards,

Anthony
ALL American is offline Find More Posts by ALL American
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 11:05 AM
Balsa&Tissue
payne9999's Avatar
United States, OR, Beaverton
Joined Jan 2011
2,392 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by free bird View Post
Pane9999 try looking at worlds model p51 ep 40 . This plane wing spand is 49 inch weight is 3.5 pounds . it is my best plane todate got about 8 flights. the plane has been out a few years. Balsa / litecote. hope this helps ? Fly with a smile.
That is a nice sport scale model. I would prefer a more scale project but it is pretty close to what I am talking about. I did see this plane a while back when I was looking but they seem to be out of stock all the time (a common problem in the RC industry it seems).

Well, I am some kind of stubborn SOB as I have rebuilt again and plan to give it the old college try once again....I added some reflex to the ailerons and tightened up the elevator pushrod.

Here it is after the latest rebuild (I am surprised it came out so good):

payne9999 is online now Find More Posts by payne9999
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2012, 11:19 AM
Balsa&Tissue
payne9999's Avatar
United States, OR, Beaverton
Joined Jan 2011
2,392 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALL American View Post
Dave,

I have one of these ESM Warbirds on my list. They are really top quality ARF's. Of course, conversion to electric power increases the wing loading substantially, but I'm in this hobby to be challenged. The more I'm challenged, the more I get out of this. I prefer the higher wing loadings because the wind penetration and stability is greatly enhanced, versus the lightweights that get blown around. Also, I find it much more rewarding to fly a plane that keeps me on my toes and has to be flown right to the ground.

Years ago, I flew planes like Clancy Lazy Bees and sailplanes like the Airtronics Eclipse with Astro Flight Geared 05 motors. The wing loadings were fairly light. I could trim the Eclipse to fly around in circles while I sat in a lawn chair sipping Iced Tea and I watched my plane fly itself. Today I prefer a little more excitement. The thought that I could crash my P51B by making a novice mistake just makes each successful flight that much more rewarding. If I ever crash it I'll only have myself to blame. If this hobby ever stops being challenging that's when I'll want a break from it.

But that's me!

Regards,

Anthony
Anthony,

I am with you on being challenged and that is why I fly some fast planes as well as slow and multi-engine. However, you could start bicycle racing as a hobby and restrict yourself to a 100 lb. bike to make it more challenging but I think that would be unnecessary. Just an example...Flying a nice scale Super Cub is fun but the challenge is to fly it very scale like and make it look real in the air, shoot some really short touch and goes etc.

My goal has been to be able to fly something as tough as a GeeBee or as complex as a B-17. However, a GeeBee will fall out of the sky when throttled back and it is a predictable behavior. It doesn't balloon up on landing, stall and go splat on the runway. A GeeBee will punish you for a mistake not act out like an unpredictable teenager.

I agree with Joe, a plane that stalls and spins into the ground on approach at 50% throttle indicates there is some other problem than a critical flying mistake. My turn on approach was not even a downwind turn.

Dave
payne9999 is online now Find More Posts by payne9999
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion E-Flight Platinum series P-51b nitro_star Scale Kit/Scratch Built 2 Aug 27, 2010 04:09 PM
Question E-flite p-51b RCDestroyer Electric Plane Talk 4 Aug 26, 2010 12:10 PM
Sold ESM P-51B Mustang - "Frank Tiano Series" mustang1971 Aircraft - Fuel - Airplanes (FS/W) 8 Jun 06, 2010 02:32 PM
For Sale Nib E-flite platinum series AT-6 Texan w/ optional accsry's lavochkin Aircraft - Electric - Airplanes (FS/W) 8 Mar 31, 2009 06:51 PM
For Sale NEW - Top Flite P-51B Mustang #RARE# JimJams Aircraft - Fuel - Airplanes (FS/W) 5 Apr 13, 2006 05:17 AM