Originally Posted by kjkimball

Sneasle,

I created all the data we used to build our Gee Bee Z. This was a project that a good friend of mine, Jeff Eicher, and I decided we wanted to do together. No customer for it. We did it spare time evenings and weekends and it took almost 4 years. Time wise, 1500 hrs in front of my computer creating the data from the limited info we had at the time, and doing the stress analysis on the structure. Construction time was 4500 man hours. So, in all 6000 hrs to build it as you see it at FofF. Once we were done with it, we didn't know what to do with it as Jeff and I didn't want to fly it ourselves. So, we placed it on loan to FofF for a while and then Kermit bought it so it would stay there.

I do have all the data and it is my personal property. I can build another if I want to. I have been asked many times if I will sell a copy of the data and I say yes....for a price of $50k. That may sound like a bunch but if you divide it by 1500 hrs, it comes to about 25% of a typical engineering rate charged for this type of design work. To build a Z today in our shop, it would cost about $550k using this data.

Funny memory about this project was when I told Curtis Pitts we were going to build one. He response was something to the effect of, "...why would you want to do that? Somebody already did it in 1931..." He was always looking forward and I can see his point. But, it was a great project.

We used several model drawing sets as reference. Each had flaws but mostly good data. I collected data of all types, drawings, photos, engineering papers, articles, and even drawings of some of the other airplanes designed by the Granvilles to learn how to replicate this one. The best overall set of model plans I found were Vern Clements in Caldwell, ID. He may be gone now.

That is awesome! It's wonderful to hear from someone with such amazing experience in the aircraft industry that is willing to share that wealth of info with people on an RC forum.

$550k for the GBZ seems like a bargain in the grand scheme of things; a ridiculously rich person might spend around that or even quite a bit more more than that on, say, a Ferrari or a Lamborghini, or a Bugatti, or even a Saleen S7 for example.

delete- wrong button lol

Originally Posted by Dave Eichstedt

I saw Tom Jones fly one of the Coors Light Silver Bullet BD-5Js at an airshow in Prescott Arizona when I was in college (1987-1991). It wasn't too long after that he was killed in the Sukhoi, which had a unique scheme of black with either orange starbursts outlined in yellow or yellow starbursts outlined in orange (can't remember which). I do have a photo pack of the airplane somewhere, just not sure where it is at the moment.

A fellow Embry-Riddle grad? Cool. Have you seen Matt Chapman's show? Very nice, and a great guy too.
MR2

If I'm an advanced beginner/intermediate pilot... Proficient with the mico p-51, and bigger t-28 and f4f, will I be able to set the new micro beast on low enough dx6i settings to fly it?

well from what I have heard it will be as fast as the t-28, but micro. I think as long as you set d/r and don't gun it all the time, you should be fine.

Yep, you should be fine.

Originally Posted by RealGambler

Hmmm, Darksiede was talking about two cells in series... I think you're suddenly talking about 2 cells in parallel?....

2 amps coming out of a 8.4volt (2 cell pack) = 16.8Watts of power delivered.

1 amps coming out of a 4.2Volt cell = 4.2Watts
1 amps coming out of the second 4.2Volt cell = 4.2Watts

If each cells supply only 1amp in a serie pack, you would have only 2 X 4.2Watts of power delivered. (8.4Watts).

So simple confusion between parallel and serie maybe?


Also, a few posts before, I was replying to Darksiede comments were he used the term current all the time. Twice, you said I should have used C.... I simply used the same terms he used just to avoid confusion.

Its hard to argue with your math RG but I think there is a detail that is missing. I will give this some more thought and see if I can figure out how to express that missing part of the equation but I can not figure out how to explain it just yet.

Regards
modfly

Originally Posted by rsobel

If I'm an advanced beginner/intermediate pilot... Proficient with the mico p-51, and bigger t-28 and f4f, will I be able to set the new micro beast on low enough dx6i settings to fly it?

RS,

The UM P-51 flies like an aileron trainer. The Beast should fly a lot more like the Sukhoi than the UM P-51 or larger warbirds. Can you fly a UM Sukhoi?

Joel

Originally Posted by kjkimball

Sneasle,

I created all the data we used to build our Gee Bee Z. This was a project that a good friend of mine, Jeff Eicher, and I decided we wanted to do together. No customer for it. We did it spare time evenings and weekends and it took almost 4 years. Time wise, 1500 hrs in front of my computer creating the data from the limited info we had at the time, and doing the stress analysis on the structure. Construction time was 4500 man hours. So, in all 6000 hrs to build it as you see it at FofF. Once we were done with it, we didn't know what to do with it as Jeff and I didn't want to fly it ourselves. So, we placed it on loan to FofF for a while and then Kermit bought it so it would stay there.

I do have all the data and it is my personal property. I can build another if I want to. I have been asked many times if I will sell a copy of the data and I say yes....for a price of $50k. That may sound like a bunch but if you divide it by 1500 hrs, it comes to about 25% of a typical engineering rate charged for this type of design work. To build a Z today in our shop, it would cost about $550k using this data.

Funny memory about this project was when I told Curtis Pitts we were going to build one. He response was something to the effect of, "...why would you want to do that? Somebody already did it in 1931..." He was always looking forward and I can see his point. But, it was a great project.

We used several model drawing sets as reference. Each had flaws but mostly good data. I collected data of all types, drawings, photos, engineering papers, articles, and even drawings of some of the other airplanes designed by the Granvilles to learn how to replicate this one. The best overall set of model plans I found were Vern Clements in Caldwell, ID. He may be gone now.

Well, if I ever win the lottery, I'll call you.

I'll see if I can find Vern Clements, hopefully some source of his drawings still exists.

I really hate to see knowledge of this sort of thing die. Adrian Page cuts a bunch of wonderful kits, his GBZ is a very nice piece of engineering, sadly he hasn't been cutting any of his planes for the last few years. I've talked with him a bit and urged him to pass his files on to someone else rather then let them fall into obscurity, I hope he figures something out so his creations don't die.

Understand what you mean in terms of engineering cost, while I am only a grad student currently, I have spent a year working in industry already and the amount of money put into R&D is staggering, even in a small company, and that cost must be recouped somehow.

But seriously, you should join us in October. I've never been to Oshkosh, but I image it is very much like it, but on a smaller scale and without the company promotions/displays.

Originally Posted by sneasle

Well, if I ever win the lottery, I'll call you.

I'll see if I can find Vern Clements, hopefully some source of his drawings still exists.

I really hate to see knowledge of this sort of thing die. Adrian Page cuts a bunch of wonderful kits, his GBZ is a very nice piece of engineering, sadly he hasn't been cutting any of his planes for the last few years. I've talked with him a bit and urged him to pass his files on to someone else rather then let them fall into obscurity, I hope he figures something out so his creations don't die.

Understand what you mean in terms of engineering cost, while I am only a grad student currently, I have spent a year working in industry already and the amount of money put into R&D is staggering, even in a small company, and that cost must be recouped somehow.

But seriously, you should join us in October. I've never been to Oshkosh, but I image it is very much like it, but on a smaller scale and without the company promotions/displays.

Vern's info I have is:
Vern Clements Plans
308 Palo ALto
Cladwell ID. 83651
Ph. # 1-208-459-7608
Last I heard, his wife was still selling plans a few years ago. Worth a try.

As for Ashville in October, I am out of the country a fair part of October so I don't think I can make it. He show there is pretty laid back...more of a local event. I hear it is a great event and I am sure I will get there one time soon. As for comparing it to Oshkosh, think of it as a local Sat night car race, Sun N Fun as the Daytona 500 and then Oshkosh as the Us Grand Prix Formula One race. You do need to see SNF which is so much bigger than Greg's event and then see Oshkosh which makes SNF seem small. YOu will like the big shows too because of the shock and awe of it. But, you will still love the 'feeling' you get from shows the size of Greg's.

Originally Posted by sneasle

Understand what you mean in terms of engineering cost, while I am only a grad student currently, I have spent a year working in industry already and the amount of money put into R&D is staggering, even in a small company, and that cost must be recouped somehow..

In fact, there's usually 3 groups involved:

R&D: They cost a lot so all other departments hate them. They want a $50,000 equipment and they get it next day. R&D doesn't understand why marketing need such good computers. They only draw things...
Marketing: Guys from R&D hate them because they are the one who go: "Wow, you're working on a new product? When will it be ready? You know it will be ready in July, so you say September to them (safety margin). They then advertise the product as being ready to buy in April and ask R&D to meet the deadline. They then make 100,000 brochures but R&D change the design at the last minute so brochure are no longer good. They want a pen and accounting won't give it to them because they spent all the money in R&D
Manufacturing: They hate Marketing because they get the product in June, so they are already late and have to work harder because the product was supposed to go out in April. They got an old Bill Of Material from R&D that got changed at the last minute so instead of ordering 5 zillion feet of 0.005mm carbon fiber rod, they have 0.1mm rods in coming in. They have all the other parts except one. They have little guys running over their shoulder telling them that if they make a wire half an inch shorter, on 100,000 planes, they will save megabucks, yet, later on, find out assembly is then harder!

In the end, a great product come out, and all the top guys give themselves 5% bonus. One of the guy in accounting leave because he saw all the money going around while he is paid next to nothing. But the product is finally released, and everybody go to the pub together and forget about everything. Then, somebody in engineering come out with a new idea/product and the cycle continue....

Originally Posted by turboparker

RS,

The UM P-51 flies like an aileron trainer. The Beast should fly a lot more like the Sukhoi than the UM P-51 or larger warbirds. Can you fly a UM Sukhoi?

Joel

I've never tried the sukhoi... That's why I'm asking! Only the three listed

I think if you set the rates low enough you should be able to fly it like a sport plane, just remember its gonna go exactly where you point it though.

Originally Posted by helidude22

This beast seems sooo cool. But I am sad that the release date has been pushed back to late October! Can' t believe they pushed it two months back. I just hope it is not pushed back any more.

You should have seen the wait for the first sukhoi! I was one of many on the first batch list that was delayed for almost 6 months!

Most hobby shops are likely to get a few on the first run.. ive already reserved mine. So you know, I recieved my Mustang at the LHS the day they arrived which was before most online orders were filled..