HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Closed Thread
Thread Tools
Old Aug 17, 2010, 10:42 AM
Registered Slopeaphile
awmeade's Avatar
S-u-A, UK.
Joined Jan 2003
674 Posts
Fafnir
Bergfalke 1 / Mu13D
Jaskolka

Any of the above
awmeade is offline Find More Posts by awmeade
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Aug 17, 2010, 11:45 AM
..full opposite rudder..
Cranfield Uni, Beds, UK
Joined Nov 2004
79 Posts
+1 for the Zugvogel!

I can make fuselage cross sections available along with a copy of the factory General Arrangement drawing...
skylark3f is offline Find More Posts by skylark3f
Old Aug 17, 2010, 01:57 PM
SB-28 UK Display Pilot
GeeW's Avatar
ENGLAND
Joined Jul 2001
2,427 Posts
Another option Fauvette or staying with K-8 type construction either the Javelot or the 2 seater Bijave
GeeW is offline Find More Posts by GeeW
Last edited by GeeW; Aug 17, 2010 at 02:05 PM.
Old Aug 17, 2010, 02:51 PM
Confused? Who, me?
Roger Lombard's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, North York
Joined Jan 2005
4,789 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dion9146 View Post
Interesting question that should be at the heart of the issue. Is the target audience for this plane the first time scale builder or experienced scale builder who just wants to build something from a kit for a change? And what sort of scale fidelity does that target demand?

.....................................Dion
As a long-away-from building-kits person (I mean 40 years) when I came back to model flying I was frustrated by the absence of reasonably priced and sensibly sized "scale" sailplane kits, and that frustration was behind my original request of Replikit that they should simply reproduce the old 50" Minimoa kit at 2 x scale.

I'd hope the outcome of this project provides others with the inspiration to tackle something a bit further up the hill than, say, a Westwings Skylark (nothing wrong with it, I have one, and a Fournier), maybe as a preparation or motivation for going on to more complex kits or scratchbuilding. But as I said earlier in the thread I'd also hope the kit would provide the experienced builder with a light relief opportunity. So I don't think the two target audiences are in conflict.

And then I come to the quote from Vintage1 I used in the first post of this thread:

"What I think is ideal therefore is something that is relatively easy to *BUILD* and finish to a high standard, I don't care if it's awkward to design, however. That gets done once only."

My vision is that we meet that objective with something that is certainly able to meet the "that looks about right" concept at a minimum but ideally with a little more so that those who want to can put that little bit extra into their model. That may be a focus on the scale detail or for the relatively inexperienced like me a focus on finishing it nicely so it may only be a TLAR but it'll be a TLAR I can be proud of. However we don't want a model that is not a sweet flyer or is temperamental, and that may necessitate tinkering with flying surface areas, with airfoils and maybe with recognising that very fine tapered wingtips on a 3m-ish model are dangerous territory, much as I love the Fafnir!

Can I gently suggest that we call a halt on a further new suggestions, otherwise we're going to be overfaced (I already am!) and try and get some agreement on a shortlist of two or three that may not include your dream but does include a model you'd be happy to see (and which you might buy - important point! - or, I suppose, think others would buy, even if you wouldn't )

I'd never have thought,for example, of the Zugvogel but I think I'm falling in love, and it does seem we have access to the necessary documentation?

Does it make sense to major on one that meets Vintage1's "easy to build and finish to a high standard" and then when that's been a commercial success and we've built the "classic sailplane" brand and brought more into the fold we'll get Vintage1 to do ANOTHER - a real beauty!
Roger Lombard is offline Find More Posts by Roger Lombard
Old Aug 17, 2010, 03:00 PM
Registered User
vintage1's Avatar
East Anglia, UK
Joined Sep 2002
29,687 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dion9146 View Post
Interesting question that should be at the heart of the issue. Is the target audience for this plane the first time scale builder or experienced scale builder who just wants to build something from a kit for a change?
The target market is the greatest number of people with the deepest pockets.

Next?



Seriously, this is pretty good feedback. Cheapest market research ever done!

Let's say that if a plane sells a dozen, its a roaring success. Nothing is more disheartening than to make a plane that I think looks good, files well, and no one ever buys it.

If its sells two or three, although it ain't great, its still worth doing. I can't say for sure how many Minnies we have sold, but its more than three, and less than seven. But its a long term investment..that sort of plane will do two a year for a decade. That's pretty much true of ALL our designs. Two a year is about average. Let's face it how many kits CAN you build and destroy in a year anyway? people have cupboards full of kits.

I still think Roger should list up ALL the planes that have been mentioned, and set up a poll. We can simply vote for one or more of the designs. Any of what's been mentioned looks like a nice project so I have no real favourites. The key is really to have decent data to work off.
vintage1 is offline Find More Posts by vintage1
Last edited by vintage1; Aug 17, 2010 at 03:12 PM.
Old Aug 17, 2010, 03:10 PM
Registered User
dion9146's Avatar
United States, KY, La Grange
Joined Feb 2006
1,600 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage1 View Post
The target market is the greatest number of people with the deepest pockets.

Next?

Easy for you to say....
dion9146 is offline Find More Posts by dion9146
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Big Gull plan pics
Old Aug 17, 2010, 03:11 PM
Registered User
dion9146's Avatar
United States, KY, La Grange
Joined Feb 2006
1,600 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Lombard View Post
Does it make sense to major on one that meets Vintage1's "easy to build and finish to a high standard" and then when that's been a commercial success and we've built the "classic sailplane" brand and brought more into the fold we'll get Vintage1 to do ANOTHER - a real beauty!
Well said. Let's take the models suggested and put it out for vote.
dion9146 is offline Find More Posts by dion9146
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Big Gull plan pics
Old Aug 17, 2010, 04:05 PM
Confused? Who, me?
Roger Lombard's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, North York
Joined Jan 2005
4,789 Posts
Can I delegate constructing an RCG poll to someone else - I have NO idea how to do it.
Roger Lombard is offline Find More Posts by Roger Lombard
Old Aug 17, 2010, 05:08 PM
Registered User
vintage1's Avatar
East Anglia, UK
Joined Sep 2002
29,687 Posts
I think only you CAN do it - its 'your thread'

Oh. You can only set up a poll when you create a new thread.

So we will have to star one.

Best to start making up a list of ALL the stuff we have discussed, and when its complete, I'll make new poll thread up.
vintage1 is offline Find More Posts by vintage1
Old Aug 17, 2010, 06:57 PM
Registered User
The Far East
Joined Jan 2006
848 Posts
Jaskolka,
Foka,
Libelle.

Simple line of a Foka should not look so challenging to make in balsa to an intermediate modeler.
suirendoujin is offline Find More Posts by suirendoujin
Old Aug 17, 2010, 07:42 PM
Registered User
PeteSchug's Avatar
Elmhurst, NY (Queens in NYC)
Joined Apr 2004
6,972 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage1 View Post
I have to ask, how much do people care about ultimate scale fidelity?
[snip]
If the plane is recognizable I'd be happy. I don't want flaps where there were none, and I would like spoilers that are similar to original. If there were flaps on the original then I want them.

So far I would be happy with the Olympia with the most common type of tail, and with a wheel.

I would also be happy with a Ka 8.

I had one once many years ago, from a German kit and was amazed at how well it glided, but it was one of my first gliders. I think I gave it to a friend's son, and I don't think I ever had radio gear in it. One of the attractions of the Ka 8 is that I flew one once. It was not one of our club gliders so it was a one and only flight.

Pete
PeteSchug is offline Find More Posts by PeteSchug
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Some Books About Flying
Old Aug 17, 2010, 11:18 PM
Confused? Who, me?
Roger Lombard's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, North York
Joined Jan 2005
4,789 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage1 View Post
I think only you CAN do it - its 'your thread'

Oh. You can only set up a poll when you create a new thread.

So we will have to star one.

Best to start making up a list of ALL the stuff we have discussed, and when its complete, I'll make new poll thread up.
I'll put the list together today for you Vintage1 - thanks.
Roger Lombard is offline Find More Posts by Roger Lombard
Old Aug 17, 2010, 11:38 PM
AKA justabigham
ka7cse's Avatar
Auburn, WA USA
Joined Sep 2002
285 Posts
My vote is all of the above!!!!
ka7cse is online now Find More Posts by ka7cse
RCG Plus Member
Old Aug 18, 2010, 12:53 AM
Confused? Who, me?
Roger Lombard's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, North York
Joined Jan 2005
4,789 Posts
OK here's the list. It has one or two that are "modern materials" ( I think we have to accept that some of the later classics may have had moulded components such as nose cones) such as the Blanik and the Libelle but since I was in favour of the "cheat" Blanik I've left the Libelle in as well.

I'm a bit worried that 32 may simply be too many to make a meaningful poll but the only thing I can suggest is that we authorise the designer to trim the list based on his own criteria of good support documentation, easy to build and capable of a high standard of finish and something that "looks right". It's already clear that there are some favourites and one or two that are already available in kit form elsewhere.

I hope no-one thinks I left their baby out, and I have included suggestions that were made in the old Minimoa thread. I've also checked that a google search will bring up details of any and all of them (but not necessarily enough details for Vintage1)

Avia 40p
Blanik L-13
Breguet 905 Fauvette
DFS Reiher
DFS Weihe
Eon Olympia 2b
Fafnir
Foka SZD-24
Glasflugel Libelle
Grunau Baby
Jaskolka SZD-8
Kaiser Ka-8
Kirby Kite
Rhoensperber Sperber Junior
Scheibe B-Spatz
Scheibe Bergfalke IV
Scheibe Bergfalke Mu-13
Scheibe Zugvogel IIIa
Scheibe Zugvogel IV
Schleicher ASK-13
Schleicher ASK -18
Slingsby King Kite
Slingsby Petrel
Slingsby Skylark 2 Merlin
Slingsby Skylark 3b
Slingsby T-21
Slingsby T-32
Slingsby T 51
Standard Austria
Steinadler MG-19
Wassmer WA-22 Javelot
Wasmer WA-30 Bijave

EDIT Vintage1 I'm assuming you allow us more than one vote - if we could pick our favourite 3 then that would help reduce the list of 32 down to a shortlist of... 3?
Roger Lombard is offline Find More Posts by Roger Lombard
Last edited by Roger Lombard; Aug 18, 2010 at 01:45 AM.
Old Aug 18, 2010, 02:24 AM
Registered User
North Yorkshire UK, on a big hill facing the prevailing wind. Coincidence?
Joined Oct 2007
906 Posts
Thanks for doing this Roger. I have just one concern and it's that some of the above won't have enough aerodynamic efficiency to fly well at just 3m span.

Some of them have relatively high AR (>16), so they'll have precious little wing area (so high wing-loading + stall speed). Others have narrow tip chords that won't please Mr Reynolds. And fat-fuselages + wing-struts will struggle at this size too.

Do hope this doesn't sound negative. Just think they may actually be good reasons to prune down the list.

Thanks again.
Rog
Sutton Bank is offline Find More Posts by Sutton Bank
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Product Lasercut CNC conversion kit for the Proxxon MF70 KJMDES CAD/CAM 3 Sep 19, 2011 11:57 AM
Wanted Chrysalis 2M Electric sailplane kit (with the three piece wing kit) bfraser Aircraft - Sailplanes (FS/W) 0 Aug 14, 2010 02:01 AM
For Sale Classic* Midwest Pitts Special 48" semi-kit moneybags Aircraft - Fuel - Airplanes (FS/W) 0 Aug 10, 2010 01:16 AM
Sold ARES kit by Classic Air Models *NIB* wfortney99 Aircraft - Fuel - Airplanes (FS/W) 1 Aug 09, 2010 08:23 AM
Article Stevens Aero Groove Aerobatic Park Flyer Lasercut Kit Review Christine Electric Plane Talk 9 Sep 25, 2009 05:35 PM