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Old Jun 28, 2003, 03:02 AM
steve randall
Guest
n/a Posts
Washing machne Motor wiring help!

Hi - can anyone with domestic appliance motor knowledge help?

I have a 260W motor out of an old washing machine that I'd like to use
to power a small metalworking lathe. Unfortunately I'm still trying to
work out how to connect it to the mains power.

The motor is marked:

ZEM Type 20571034 MAde in ITALY

Is.CI.B CE107/10-IEC 335

220 240V ~50Hz Matr.
4A 260W 2780 1/min
3.3A 200W 1380 1/min 8uF 400VL
1.1A 90W 900 1/min 8uF 450VL

No 34600.244

Unsurprisingly I also found a 8uF capacitor inside the machine.

The washing machine was an Electrolux.

The washer definitely tumbled clockwise and anti-clockwise - so it
must be possible to start the motor in both directions - but I only
ever saw this working at low speed.

Having taped out the connections I have found there are 5 windings
connected to a common (Pink) wire - making 6 motor wires in total.
There are also a couple of other wires that appear to have a short
circuit between them.

The wire colours and winding resistances are:
Pink Common
Brown 81ohm
Blue 44 ohm
White 76 ohm
Mauve 10 ohm
Orange 11 ohm

I suspect the other two wires (black and gray) connect to a
centrifugal switch or thermal cutout.

Before I disassembled the motor from the washing machine I tried to
work out the wiring when on the spin cycle - from this I suspect:

Power was connected to the orange wire (11 ohm winding).

Power was also connected via the 8uf capacitor to the blue
wire (44 ohm winding).

The Power return was connected to the pink (common) wire.

I have also run the motor up in this configuration - first with 550W
of light bulbs in series and then directly connected to the mains
power.

the light bulb test worked fine (the lights dimming after the
motor has spun up to speed).

the direct mains test worked but the motor hummed quite a lot
and one time it blew a 3A fuse on startup. I didn't run it
long.


The questions I want to ask are:-

Do you think I have the connections above right?

Has anyone any idea how to make it run at the other 2 speeds
and how to reverse the direction?


One other combination of wires worked - power applied to the brown
wire (81ohm winding) and via a capacitor to the white wire (76ohm
winding) - or reversing the brown and white wire connections made the
motor run the other direction. No other combination of wires seems to
work.

Sorry its been a bit of a long rant - but I thought it best to lay out
all the info. in one go.

Steve

Old Jun 29, 2003, 03:01 AM
Steve
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!


"steve randall" <steve@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:fbgpfvk1j2b5a83ju1eujajmsl5v1g6s0s@4ax.com...
> Hi - can anyone with domestic appliance motor knowledge help?
>
> I have a 260W motor out of an old washing machine that I'd like to use
> to power a small metalworking lathe. Unfortunately I'm still trying to
> work out how to connect it to the mains power.


<Snipped the rest>

An excellent book on the topic is "Electric Motors in the Home Workshop" by
Jim Cox.

The book describes that your motor is likely to be a commutator motor with a
small generator running off the drive shaft to allow the speed of the output
shaft to be measured.

The author doesn't seem to favour these types for powering lathes, the text
suggests that they only develop full power at around 8000rpm and require an
electronic speed controller. There's a suggestion that if you run the motor
off load at normal mains voltage, the commutator will fly in bits due to
the speed these motors can achieve!

Drop me a line off list if you want more details.

Regards

Steve


Old Jun 29, 2003, 03:01 AM
Bob Minchin
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

Steve wrote:

> "steve randall" <steve@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:fbgpfvk1j2b5a83ju1eujajmsl5v1g6s0s@4ax.com...
> > Hi - can anyone with domestic appliance motor knowledge help?
> >
> > I have a 260W motor out of an old washing machine that I'd like to use
> > to power a small metalworking lathe. Unfortunately I'm still trying to
> > work out how to connect it to the mains power.

>
> <Snipped the rest>
>
> An excellent book on the topic is "Electric Motors in the Home Workshop" by
> Jim Cox.
>
> The book describes that your motor is likely to be a commutator motor with a
> small generator running off the drive shaft to allow the speed of the output
> shaft to be measured.
>
> The author doesn't seem to favour these types for powering lathes, the text
> suggests that they only develop full power at around 8000rpm and require an
> electronic speed controller. There's a suggestion that if you run the motor
> off load at normal mains voltage, the commutator will fly in bits due to
> the speed these motors can achieve!
>
> Drop me a line off list if you want more details.
>
> Regards
>
> Steve


Steve, I have to disagree with you in that I think this is an induction motor.
Look at the speeds in the OP message

it is a multipole motor with two, four and 6 poles.

It seem that the 2 pole configuration needs no capacitor but will need to be set
spinning by one of the lower speed windings first.


To Steve R.

I thing the best way to find out which connection is which is to drive the motor
from another one (any speed) and then observe the low voltage sine waves between
the common and each other windings. Measure the frequency from each terminal.

a)The lowest frequency should appear on one wire only. This is the top speed.
b)The next (medium) frequency (twice that of a) should appear on two wires. The
lowest resistance of these will be the main run winding, and the higher will be
the one to be connected via the capacitor for the mid speed setting
c)The remaining two wires should have the highest frequency (3 times a) and will
be used for the lowest speed.

I strongly suspect that you will only be able to reverse the motor on the low
speed setting (the one you have got working already I guess)
This will be a custom designed motor for a washing machine rather than a
universal workhorse which is what you really need

I hope that this makes sense (and works) I've never done this but it seems a
sound approach to me.

A further thought has just occured to me!

To use the top speed winding you will have to get the motor turning with a lower
speed setting first and it is just possible that your can do this with the low
speed, reversible winding thus giving you reversible top speed too.
You will need careful switching to achieve this, ensuring the motor comes to a
stop when changing from top speed CW to top speed CCW

Do note that the motor power is quite low on all but the top speed (1/3 hp) and
only suitable for a small lathe

This is quite an intriguing problem (to me at least!!) Do let me know how you
get on.

Regards

Bob


Old Jun 29, 2003, 03:01 AM
Sam Goldwasser
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

Sounds more like an induction motor which can be configured for 2, 4, or 6
poles based on the speeds and 50 Hz power. Sorry, original post isn't
included here.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the Feedback Form at repairfaq.org. Thanks.



"Steve" <steve.withnell@btinternet.com> writes:

> "steve randall" <steve@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:fbgpfvk1j2b5a83ju1eujajmsl5v1g6s0s@4ax.com...
> > Hi - can anyone with domestic appliance motor knowledge help?
> >
> > I have a 260W motor out of an old washing machine that I'd like to use
> > to power a small metalworking lathe. Unfortunately I'm still trying to
> > work out how to connect it to the mains power.

>
> <Snipped the rest>
>
> An excellent book on the topic is "Electric Motors in the Home Workshop" by
> Jim Cox.
>
> The book describes that your motor is likely to be a commutator motor with a
> small generator running off the drive shaft to allow the speed of the output
> shaft to be measured.
>
> The author doesn't seem to favour these types for powering lathes, the text
> suggests that they only develop full power at around 8000rpm and require an
> electronic speed controller. There's a suggestion that if you run the motor
> off load at normal mains voltage, the commutator will fly in bits due to
> the speed these motors can achieve!
>
> Drop me a line off list if you want more details.
>
> Regards
>
> Steve

Old Jun 29, 2003, 03:01 AM
Michael A. Terrell
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

Have you considered the obvious? Call someone who repairs appliances
and ask how it is wired.

--


Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Old Jun 30, 2003, 03:02 AM
catgate
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

Having trod this path before the best suggestion I can make is dump the lot
in the bin and go and get a proper motor from Machine Mart or such. You will
waste endless time and effort and still have to do the dumping eventually.
G.U.
"Bob Minchin" <bob.minchin@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3EFE0986.9523E009@ntlworld.com...
> Steve wrote:
>
> > "steve randall" <steve@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> > news:fbgpfvk1j2b5a83ju1eujajmsl5v1g6s0s@4ax.com...
> > > Hi - can anyone with domestic appliance motor knowledge help?
> > >
> > > I have a 260W motor out of an old washing machine that I'd like to use
> > > to power a small metalworking lathe. Unfortunately I'm still trying to
> > > work out how to connect it to the mains power.

> >
> > <Snipped the rest>
> >
> > An excellent book on the topic is "Electric Motors in the Home Workshop"

by
> > Jim Cox.
> >
> > The book describes that your motor is likely to be a commutator motor

with a
> > small generator running off the drive shaft to allow the speed of the

output
> > shaft to be measured.
> >
> > The author doesn't seem to favour these types for powering lathes, the

text
> > suggests that they only develop full power at around 8000rpm and require

an
> > electronic speed controller. There's a suggestion that if you run the

motor
> > off load at normal mains voltage, the commutator will fly in bits due

to
> > the speed these motors can achieve!
> >
> > Drop me a line off list if you want more details.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Steve

>
> Steve, I have to disagree with you in that I think this is an induction

motor.
> Look at the speeds in the OP message
>
> it is a multipole motor with two, four and 6 poles.
>
> It seem that the 2 pole configuration needs no capacitor but will need to

be set
> spinning by one of the lower speed windings first.
>
>
> To Steve R.
>
> I thing the best way to find out which connection is which is to drive the

motor
> from another one (any speed) and then observe the low voltage sine waves

between
> the common and each other windings. Measure the frequency from each

terminal.
>
> a)The lowest frequency should appear on one wire only. This is the top

speed.
> b)The next (medium) frequency (twice that of a) should appear on two

wires. The
> lowest resistance of these will be the main run winding, and the higher

will be
> the one to be connected via the capacitor for the mid speed setting
> c)The remaining two wires should have the highest frequency (3 times a)

and will
> be used for the lowest speed.
>
> I strongly suspect that you will only be able to reverse the motor on the

low
> speed setting (the one you have got working already I guess)
> This will be a custom designed motor for a washing machine rather than a
> universal workhorse which is what you really need
>
> I hope that this makes sense (and works) I've never done this but it seems

a
> sound approach to me.
>
> A further thought has just occured to me!
>
> To use the top speed winding you will have to get the motor turning with a

lower
> speed setting first and it is just possible that your can do this with the

low
> speed, reversible winding thus giving you reversible top speed too.
> You will need careful switching to achieve this, ensuring the motor comes

to a
> stop when changing from top speed CW to top speed CCW
>
> Do note that the motor power is quite low on all but the top speed (1/3

hp) and
> only suitable for a small lathe
>
> This is quite an intriguing problem (to me at least!!) Do let me know how

you
> get on.
>
> Regards
>
> Bob
>
>



Old Jul 01, 2003, 03:01 AM
Steve
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!


"Bob Minchin" <bob.minchin@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3EFE0986.9523E009@ntlworld.com...
> Steve wrote:
>
> > "steve randall" <steve@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> > news:fbgpfvk1j2b5a83ju1eujajmsl5v1g6s0s@4ax.com...
> > > Hi - can anyone with domestic appliance motor knowledge help?
> > >
> > > I have a 260W motor out of an old washing machine that I'd like to use
> > > to power a small metalworking lathe. Unfortunately I'm still trying to
> > > work out how to connect it to the mains power.

> >
> > <Snipped the rest>
> >
> > An excellent book on the topic is "Electric Motors in the Home Workshop"

by
> > Jim Cox.
> >
> > The book describes that your motor is likely to be a commutator motor

with a
> > small generator running off the drive shaft to allow the speed of the

output
> > shaft to be measured.
> >
> > The author doesn't seem to favour these types for powering lathes, the

text
> > suggests that they only develop full power at around 8000rpm and require

an
> > electronic speed controller. There's a suggestion that if you run the

motor
> > off load at normal mains voltage, the commutator will fly in bits due

to
> > the speed these motors can achieve!
> >
> > Drop me a line off list if you want more details.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Steve

>
> Steve, I have to disagree with you in that I think this is an induction

motor.
> Look at the speeds in the OP message


Oops! I did miss the quoted output speeds -

Steve


Old Jul 28, 2003, 03:03 AM
David Lesher
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

"Steve" <steve.withnell@btinternet.com> writes:



><Snipped the rest>


>An excellent book on the topic is "Electric Motors in the Home Workshop" by
>Jim Cox.


>The book describes that your motor is likely to be a commutator motor with a
>small generator running off the drive shaft to allow the speed of the output
>shaft to be measured.


I'd say that is highly unlikely in a washing machine.
Who/what would measure the speed?


--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Old Jul 28, 2003, 03:03 AM
Bob Minchin
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

David Lesher wrote:

> "Steve" <steve.withnell@btinternet.com> writes:
>
> ><Snipped the rest>

>
> >An excellent book on the topic is "Electric Motors in the Home Workshop" by
> >Jim Cox.

>
> >The book describes that your motor is likely to be a commutator motor with a
> >small generator running off the drive shaft to allow the speed of the output
> >shaft to be measured.

>
> I'd say that is highly unlikely in a washing machine.
> Who/what would measure the speed?
>
> --
> A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
> & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
> Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
> is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433


That is exactly how a washing machine motor is speed controlled. The tacho
generator tells the electronic module what speed the motor is running at. It is
the only way to get a simple universl motor to run at washing speed (50 ish rpm)
and 1100 or more rpm for spinning.

Bob


Old Jul 28, 2003, 03:03 AM
N. Thornton
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

Hi Steve.

Washing machine motors:

2 wires for the armature
2 wires for the field
2 wires for the tacho
- thats the normal setup of these.

You can run them either off a switched mode controller (not worth it)
or run it on reduced voltage with windings in series. Just keep an eye
on the motor temp, as these things arent rated to run full whack for
long. Reduced V comes from either a transformer or series bulbs.

Dont expect any great power output running like this, but it can be
used to bodge up old equipment that otherwise wouldnt be worth doing.

Reversing: just swap the wires over on one of the winds (not both!).

Regards, NT
Old Jul 28, 2003, 03:03 AM
James Sweet
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

These must be european washing machines, or perhaps very high end ones in
north america. Every washing machine I've ever seen inside of uses a 1/2hp
capacitor start AC induction motor with two separate windings for high and
low speed. There's no control electronics or anything, just a mechanical
timer and a pressure switch to measure the water level. Higher end washers
have an electronic controller but the motor is generally still just a big
induction motor.


"N. Thornton" <bigcat@meeow.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a7076635.0307271244.6620aaba@posting.google.c om...
> Hi Steve.
>
> Washing machine motors:
>
> 2 wires for the armature
> 2 wires for the field
> 2 wires for the tacho
> - thats the normal setup of these.
>
> You can run them either off a switched mode controller (not worth it)
> or run it on reduced voltage with windings in series. Just keep an eye
> on the motor temp, as these things arent rated to run full whack for
> long. Reduced V comes from either a transformer or series bulbs.
>
> Dont expect any great power output running like this, but it can be
> used to bodge up old equipment that otherwise wouldnt be worth doing.
>
> Reversing: just swap the wires over on one of the winds (not both!).
>
> Regards, NT



Old Jul 28, 2003, 03:03 AM
Bob Minchin
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

James Sweet wrote:

> These must be european washing machines, or perhaps very high end ones in
> north america. Every washing machine I've ever seen inside of uses a 1/2hp
> capacitor start AC induction motor with two separate windings for high and
> low speed. There's no control electronics or anything, just a mechanical
> timer and a pressure switch to measure the water level. Higher end washers
> have an electronic controller but the motor is generally still just a big
> induction motor.
>
> "N. Thornton" <bigcat@meeow.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:a7076635.0307271244.6620aaba@posting.google.c om...
> > Hi Steve.
> >
> > Washing machine motors:
> >
> > 2 wires for the armature
> > 2 wires for the field
> > 2 wires for the tacho
> > - thats the normal setup of these.
> >
> > You can run them either off a switched mode controller (not worth it)
> > or run it on reduced voltage with windings in series. Just keep an eye
> > on the motor temp, as these things arent rated to run full whack for
> > long. Reduced V comes from either a transformer or series bulbs.
> >
> > Dont expect any great power output running like this, but it can be
> > used to bodge up old equipment that otherwise wouldnt be worth doing.
> >
> > Reversing: just swap the wires over on one of the winds (not both!).
> >
> > Regards, NT


Most british machines have used universal brush motors for the last 30 years
or so.
Mainly to satisfy the requirement for higher and higher spin speeds at low
cost.

Bob

Old Jul 28, 2003, 03:03 AM
David Lesher
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

Bob Minchin <bob.minchin@ntlworld.com> writes:

>> I'd say that is highly unlikely in a washing machine.
>> Who/what would measure the speed?



>That is exactly how a washing machine motor is speed controlled. The tacho
>generator tells the electronic module what speed the motor is running at. It is
>the only way to get a simple universl motor to run at washing speed (50 ish rpm)
>and 1100 or more rpm for spinning.



Well, I've never worked on a Lucas washing machine, but I've fixed my share
of Maytag's, FSP's [various nameplates] etc.

I have never seen a speed control of any form. The FSP's use a transmission
that oscillated the agitator while the drum rotated, and then changed gears
to spin the water out while the pump drains the drum.

The resulting speed is load-dependent. When it's full of water it's
starts out slower than when empty..





--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Old Jul 29, 2003, 03:02 AM
N. Thornton
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

> "N. Thornton" <bigcat@meeow.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:a7076635.0307271244.6620aaba@posting.google.c om...
> > Hi Steve.
> >
> > Washing machine motors:
> >
> > 2 wires for the armature
> > 2 wires for the field
> > 2 wires for the tacho
> > - thats the normal setup of these.
> >
> > You can run them either off a switched mode controller (not worth it)
> > or run it on reduced voltage with windings in series. Just keep an eye
> > on the motor temp, as these things arent rated to run full whack for
> > long. Reduced V comes from either a transformer or series bulbs.
> >
> > Dont expect any great power output running like this, but it can be
> > used to bodge up old equipment that otherwise wouldnt be worth doing.
> >
> > Reversing: just swap the wires over on one of the winds (not both!).
> >
> > Regards, NT



"James Sweet" <jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<M0XUa.160597$N7.21682@sccrnsc03>...
> These must be european washing machines, or perhaps very high end ones in
> north america. Every washing machine I've ever seen inside of uses a 1/2hp
> capacitor start AC induction motor with two separate windings for high and
> low speed. There's no control electronics or anything, just a mechanical
> timer and a pressure switch to measure the water level. Higher end washers
> have an electronic controller but the motor is generally still just a big
> induction motor.



Hi again.

I'm talking about european front loaders there, which are in almost
every case as I described. The big old top loaders with agitaters,
which are long obsolete here, are as you say a different business. The
last one of those I worked on had no speed control at all: the water
kept it running slowly during wash, and when it emptied it picked up
to high speed for spin.

Regards, NT
Old Jul 29, 2003, 03:02 AM
Mick Collins
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Washing machne Motor wiring help!

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:57:16 GMT, "James Sweet"
<jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote:

>These must be european washing machines, or perhaps very high end ones in
>north america. Every washing machine I've ever seen inside of uses a 1/2hp
>capacitor start AC induction motor with two separate windings for high and
>low speed. There's no control electronics or anything, just a mechanical
>timer and a pressure switch to measure the water level. Higher end washers
>have an electronic controller but the motor is generally still just a big
>induction motor.
>

This is the reason why, after the expensive failures of two delicate
high tech European machines, we eventually bought an American
(Whirlpool) washer. Crude and noisy it may be - but it still keeps
going after 1000+ washes.

(I'd love to play with a Dyson tho'----------)

Cheers - Mick
at Elstead, halfway between London and Portsmouth, UK
and at:- http://www.sylvestris.btinternet.co.uk

 


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