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Old Aug 28, 2010, 03:41 AM
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So it's now a thread of proof that the very thought of an all knowing GOD does stress some and yet comforts others... Totally cool that.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 04:40 AM
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Well, that depends on one's definition of proof.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 04:45 AM
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Observation then... not proof at all actually because there is no such a thing as Proof in the scientific community is there?

It's all shades of gray at best.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 04:56 AM
All under control, Grommit!
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Observation then... not proof at all actually because there is no such a thing as Proof in the scientific community is there?

It's all shades of gray at best.
By George he's got it.

I think he's got it!

Maybe a slight niggle on the shades of grey thing, since the rich diversity of the natural Universe is more like shades of colour rather than shades of grey, but the realisation that it isn't black and white is a major breakthrough.

It only remains to get the message across that uncertainty is not a terrible thing, it's completely natural, and to be embraced and managed, rather than feared. Then, with acceptance of that, some real progress might have been made.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 07:51 AM
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maybe if they spent more time looking than .... well what they do

Question do you think they would spend this much time debating that Santa, or Ronald McDonald was fake?

Of all the Fake stuff and imaginary beings etc..... Why do they spend so much time belittling a God they say doesn't exist. How could something that doesn't exist get 100 pages. Yet all the other combined 'nothings' can't touch the energy levels this topic has.
A research of this thread clearly has the answer.... because religion indulges itself far beyond the idea that god created... to god views gays as as an abomination.... to god views non believers as an abomination.

Remember the University of Minnesota study that was posted... the minorities in America that are disrespected the most are non believers and gays.

Religionists bring on the scorn and ridicule of their beliefs when those beliefs interpret that those who are not like them are evil. Do religionists really believe they should be respected for practicing judgementalism?
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 07:59 AM
All under control, Grommit!
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A research of this thread clearly has the answer.... because religion indulges itself far beyond the idea that god created... to god views gays as as an abomination.... to god views non believers as an abomination.

Remember the University of Minnesota study that was posted... the minorities in America that are disrespected the most are non believers and gays.

Religionists bring on the scorn and ridicule of their beliefs when those beliefs interpret that those who are not like them are evil. Do religionists really believe they should be respected for practicing judgementalism?
Well, there's a fairly good chance that they do, because in order to believe that they have to convince themselves that they are following what is decreed by scripture.

One notable example is in the so-far-off-the-wall-as-to-make-you-go - in the form of so called scriptural objection to mixed-race marriages. Though that doesn't reach anything like the frequent anti-gay-marriage opinions expressed here.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 08:17 AM
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By George he's got it.

I think he's got it!

Maybe a slight niggle on the shades of grey thing, since the rich diversity of the natural Universe is more like shades of colour rather than shades of grey, but the realisation that it isn't black and white is a major breakthrough.

It only remains to get the message across that uncertainty is not a terrible thing, it's completely natural, and to be embraced and managed, rather than feared. Then, with acceptance of that, some real progress might have been made.
Why is it that religionists are driven that everyone must accept their view? Is it an insecurity? An egotistical power trip? What maligned force is it?

I really don't think this is a hard thing to grasp... within humanity there are those who have needs beyond the daily realities of life. Religion provides for those needs but there are others who are content with creation as it is. It seems to me it is religionists who are not content with a gods creation... and want to tinker with it with add ons making parts of creation evil such as same sex attactions and non believers.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 08:32 AM
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It's a shame that nuclear physics "created" the transuranium elements.
They create nothing, they made something out of what already existed.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 08:37 AM
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Nope. Your description has nothing to do with science.

For the avoidance of all doubt, I'll explain it, yet again.

Science cannot, does not, and will not, consider the existence or otherwise of any god or gods. By definition any such gods would be supernatural entities and science does not deal with that which is outside the natural universe.
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It's a shame that nuclear physics "created" the transuranium elements.
would that be outside the natural universe?
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 08:44 AM
All under control, Grommit!
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would that be outside the natural universe?
Nope, that would be within the natural universe.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 08:45 AM
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I get why we need law. That mankind needs laws to regulate his social existence is without argument. The Hebrews knew that and provided society with a religious law but religious laws only work when most of society respect and embrace them and with pagan influences their system struggled.

Modern societies therefore find civil law to be a better framework because all citizenry of the society are subject to those laws and the laws are framed to be relevant whether believer or non believer.

It seems to me that this may have been one of the objects of Paul and others like him, to take law out of the arena of religion and place it into civil jurisdictions. There are those however who in their fervent enthusiasm of religion, believe religion has all the answers including that law should be religious rather than civil but they fail to remember the lesson of the Hebrews... that religious law has pitfalls that civil law corrects.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 08:59 AM
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What is law and what is it based upon? I would submit that it is an echoing of a societies belief system, whatever that may be. A religion is pretty much the same. A prescribed set of rules/guidelines of a belief system that determine what is/not acceptable. That being said, all belief systems have pitfalls and can be seen as inequitable depending on the perspective of individuals.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 09:01 AM
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Thank you professor Coastal.
No need to refer to me as "Professor" - I don't even ask my students to do that.
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I believe it was in the 5th grade that I learned the scientific method. Then in graduate school I was exposed to The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn. I'm sure you've read that.
It's unfortunate you didn't retain more, as you've demonstrated in many posts over the years your repeated lack of understanding of science. Just as you did in this thread.

Then again, when all you know of it is what you think you learned >40 years ago and seemingly never applied, it's probably not surprising.
What is sad is deliberately choosing to not challenge your beliefs. You can't learn and grow with a closed mind.
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Science is nothing more or less than observing all that has been created by God. Make of it whatever you will but there is nothing new under the Sun. I believe that statement from was written long before the basic laws of physics, but is quite applicable. Amazing what the old folks knew isn't it.
Really - nothing "new"? No advances in man's knowledge, medicines, medical, technology, etc.
What's amazing is that someone who just personally benefited from medical science (back surgery/pain meds/MRI) and has told us of his wife who did the same (knee surgery), still doesn't understand what science is all about.

Not because you can't, but because it will clash with your "beliefs", so you close your eyes to avoid seeing what is right in front of you.

Instead, you quote verses from a book written by men thousands of years ago, and somehow think that is a compelling argument to support your POV. Not once in the many times you've done it has it achieved what you hoped it would, at least IMO.

That is your choice, but it doesn't change reality. I'm glad you gain comfort and more importantly, the guidance you apparently need, from your beliefs. It doesn't change the fact that you have benefited from science in all aspects of your life.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bildo baggins View Post
What is law and what is it based upon? I would submit that it is an echoing of a societies belief system, whatever that may be. A religion is pretty much the same. A prescribed set of rules/guidelines of a belief system that determine what is/not acceptable. That being said, all belief systems have pitfalls and can be seen as inequitable depending on the perspective of individuals.
Sure there is echoing, but if a law is relevant to both religionists and secularist, it can't smack of religionists sentiments that infringe upon human rights of those who don't embrace those sentiments.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 09:30 AM
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Sure there is echoing, but if a law is relevant to both religionists and secularist, it can't smack of religionists sentiments that infringe upon human rights of those who don't embrace those sentiments.

I agree totally. e.g Sharia law
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