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Old Sep 12, 2012, 01:07 AM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Smalltown, USA
Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD RC Boater View Post
A buoy won't stop a runaway $100.00 RTR from going across the lake and slamming into a $1500.00 Santa Barbara or hitting the wall by spectators, etc.

Enforce the 15 mph speed limit.
Where did you find a fast speed boat that goes over 30 MPH for $100? Cause I want one!

The Outlaw OBL Jr is $219 less charger and battery. but yea... it wont prevent that, but it does help for the scale boaters and it does get a start on things.
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Old Sep 12, 2012, 01:27 AM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
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United States, CA, Los Angeles
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May have to do what the full size guys do, out here at one of the local lakes. Jet skis and full size boats alternate days.
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Old Sep 12, 2012, 11:23 AM
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United States, CA, Alameda
Joined Nov 2010
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Lets hope cooler heads prevail. It is unfortunate that a small segment pf users could ruin the use of the lake for the rest of us. I doubt that the city will be able to do much as their enforcement resources are limited due to budget cuts. As a group those of us who are members of the club should be watchful of the constantly changing situation at the lake. When club members are at the lake if you see someone opperating their boat in a not so responsible way is there a way to report that person to a ranger? If not if a member can diplomaticlly ask the operator to please observe the rules for operating on the lake? Just some thoughts. Ryan
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Old Sep 12, 2012, 12:04 PM
Kurt Greiner
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USA, CA, Grass Valley
Joined Sep 2005
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The same features that make the lake such a joy to run in make it dangerous to operate high speed boats, be they electric or gas. The low curb and pedestrian pathways make it all to easy for a boat to strike a spectator. If the speed limit for electrics is passed - a good idea - then one suggestion would be to put up clear signage to that effect at multiple spots along the shore.

What do members of the club think about setting up a camera to record happenings at the lake? I have an older, but working 4 channel DVR I would be willing to donate to the club for that purpose. Someone would have to supply the cameras and hook it up, but knowing that your actions are being recorded might encourage better behavior on the part of those who use the lake.
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Old Sep 14, 2012, 12:27 PM
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Joined Oct 2011
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This is out of my comfort zone but I fell the need to comment on the "go fasties" as we have come to call them. I've been going out to the lake since before I could walk back in the 70's and my father and grandfather before me. Just recently starting bringing my son who is a fourth generation boater at Spreckels. My family has been in the hobby since the 50's and I want to continue that tradition. A lot of the club members today spent time in my Grandfathers shop who supplied materials for the hobby.

I understand what everybody is saying about the new off the shelf rtr's and agree there needs to be some rule changes but the 15mph limit would end my trips to the lake. I don't know what boats fall under "go fasties" but I'm old school and was taught the right way to do things. I've built all my hulls from wood and spent months building and tuning them. Not afraid to say I've hit 62mph on the lake and plan on improving that speed. I'm also in the process of restoring a boat built in the 70's by Pat that will likely be in the 30mph range. I have pics of it on the lake and there's a photo of him with the boat hanging in the clubhouse. Should I not be allowed to run this boat like it was back then?

I havn't been a member of the club or been a big participant there over the years but I've built a family and a career and plan on spending more time there. I can't express how disappointed my family would be if that tradition ended. The only other place to run boats that I know of is Kaiser Cove and it's not feasible for me to make that trip a few times a week.

I plan on becoming a member of the club just to discuss this further with the members I've known there for decades.

Thanks for reading my vent! And I'll see you at the lake.
Ken Alasandro
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Old Sep 14, 2012, 01:22 PM
Fast Cal
United States, CA, SF
Joined Jul 2011
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The events that have transpired ever since the last night run have prompted me to take a break from the lake. Some people who will remain nameless have given us go fast guys a bad name. I for one am very careful and yes NOT perfect in piloting my fast boats but I do 99% of the time avoid the sail boats as much as I can. I understand on occasion they tend to wander into our running area from time to time and we try to avoid hitting them. I don't know about everyone else but I have noticed some sailboat guys tend to be coming out earlier than 1pm as well. We both need to share the lake. Unfortunately we have some bad seeds amongst us that we the GO FAST guys time and time again warn them to ALWAYS to exercise caution when running among sailboats. Those bad seeds tend to take it not as serious as the regular runners unfortunately and things happen that give us regulars a bad reputation. We all need to take responsibility for our own actions BUT we ALL SHOULD NOT be held accountable for one individual's faults. I came back last week and ran a little bit and find it discouraging that these events have transpired into a big mess. I am one of the guys who love this hobby and this lake. I do this to relax and have fun but it seems I may have to give up this hobby if they do impose the limitations at the lake just because of someone else's faults.
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Old Sep 14, 2012, 02:41 PM
Todd Fleury
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United States, MI, Birmingham
Joined Jun 2011
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For any Go Fast boats that are interested in joining a great club, look into joining NAMBA district 9.
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Old Sep 14, 2012, 08:14 PM
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Joined Feb 2006
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Sport 40 But even there they want you to follow the rules. And their #1 is Safety is paramount.
As for the rest of the posters, all ideas are welcome, but the ultimate power is the Park and Rec folks. The goal is to keep everyone safe and able to use the Lake. It comes down to establishing sane and clear rules that everyone can see and obey.
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Old Sep 15, 2012, 01:24 AM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Smalltown, USA
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Hey guys, someone just asked me when the battleships and subs will be out. I wasn't too sure on the dates. Could someone tell me a confirmed date for that so I could relay it?

Thanks
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Old Sep 15, 2012, 01:40 AM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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USA, CA, San Francisco
Joined Apr 2007
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Up coming things for September 'n' October....

Wooden Boats on Parade - (WBOP) Sunday, September 30, 09:30am Spreckels Lake
(includes Fishing Boat Gambler contest)


SubCommittee Mare Island's Fun Run, Sat & Sun, October 20 & 21, 09:00am
at the Western Casting Pond.


Fleet Day, Sunday, October 28, 09:30 Spreckels Lake


For that matter, when is the Spreckels Irregulars' "Fright Night FunRun?"
And your other Night Runs too??






An Last but definitely not least - The SWAP MEET will be after the regular general meeting on Saturday, November 10th (about 12 Noon). This is usually a five or six club event.
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 07:58 AM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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Joined Apr 2007
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It was an active morning and afternoon at the Lake today - open water for gas and others from 10am to 1pm and the Infinity heats in the afternoon.




The highlight for the couple of Club members Lakeside in the morning was the return to the Lake after more than thirty years of the Nanchez paddle tug Dixie Lea (below). Built back in the early seventies she has been sitting on a shelf for all these years until Gerry <Cpl.Fuzz> saw her and decided to get her back into shipshape and onto the water. There is still plenty to do, but doesn't she look fine.





On a sour note, one of the gas tunnels lost control, jumped the lake and went through the bushes. No, this time I didn't get pictures of her leaving the lake. Four incidents in four weeks - *sigh* and since I was watching it flip through the bushes I am not positive who was driving - all I got atm is hearsay.








Anyway, I'll get more photo's up as I get some time to process them.
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 10:30 AM
Registered User
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Oakland Ca.
Joined Aug 2009
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This cruiser is nice, a CC hull with a modified upper half ?

Dont recognize it, it's well done !
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 11:13 AM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
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United States, CA, Los Angeles
Joined Apr 2007
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Looks like a KNK Jupiter.or Mustang.
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 01:26 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
craig_c's Avatar
USA, CA, San Francisco
Joined Apr 2007
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From a couple of the details - I am pretty sure that it is Jupiter. And yes, nicely done and very quiet for a heavy gas boat.
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 02:18 PM
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Joined Aug 2009
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Thanks Gents...
Looks very cool, googled it, nuttin.
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 04:16 PM
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United States, CA, Pacifica
Joined Oct 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim B. View Post
Thanks Gents...
Looks very cool, googled it, nuttin.
It's a KNK Jupiter made in Japan. They still sell the kit it's just under a different name. I'm restoring the Jaguar now with the original Baybit 37cc. Here's the web page http://knk.client.jp/top.html you need to translate but it does show pics.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 01:11 AM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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Despite the weather that started out foggy and cold, today was a very good day on the Lake . The electric scale crowd, the Irregulars and the e-go-fasties were there in the morning to take advantage of open water for electric and steam powered boats and another different group of e-go-fasties that comes out to the Lake in the late afternoon (after 4pm) after the sailboats migrate back to the clubhouse.

Gerry <Cpl.Fuzz> brought the Dixie Lea back out for the morning after tearing out her electronics (which had gotten wet yesterday as the Dixie tends to ship a bit of water in her current configuration) to dry and remount higher in the hull. Success!! Now he's talkin' smoke generators!!! Woot!! Way to go Gerry!

No further incidents.

The 36R class freesail fleet took to the Lake in the afternoon in points racing and a good time was had by all!

Working on the photographs.... Two weeks and counting 'til Wooden Boats on Parade!!!
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 03:13 AM
Age quod agis
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Craig,

I see that you say there was yet another incident of an out of control fast gas powered boat. I have to say you guys have a critical situation brewing with these fast boats. If that boat jumped the curb and was flipping through the bushes as you say, it could just as easily been flipping through a crowd of spectators, or even someone simply taking a stroll by the lake with their dog or kids or both.

It seems like it is only a matter of time before someone gets injured by one of these fast boats and when that happens I am sure that will be the end of any and all rc boats on the lake. Some of these boats are very fast at over 70 mph which is most definitely well above the posted 15 mph limit and definitely too fast for Spreckels Lake. I do not understand why the 15 mph limit is not being enforced by the Police Officers that walk around in the park.

Good luck with this mess as I have a feeling you guys are going to need it.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 03:31 AM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Smalltown, USA
Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD RC Boater View Post

Some of these boats are very fast at over 70 mph which is most definitely well above the posted 15 mph limit and definitely too fast for Spreckels Lake. I do not understand why the 15 mph limit is not being enforced by the Police Officers that walk around in the park.

Good luck with this mess as I have a feeling you guys are going to need it.
Thats cause these are still seen as "toys" and the officers have other problems to deal with. Like vehicle robberies and sexual assaults. So, unless someone actually calls it in while someone is endangering the public's safety, and assuming the operator of the model is still there when the officers arrive, then there is no way for there to be any enforcement.

oh yea! and since "summer" has past, SFPD presence will be lower as well since there is a smaller crowd of visitors in Golden Gate Park. during summer, we occasionally saw a police bicyclist or motorcyclist hang out for 10 minutes or so.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 09:12 AM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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Joined Apr 2007
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@ SD RC Boater....

(This is personal opinion and is not a statement of SFMYC opinion/position)

An incident where someone is hurt is what worries all responsible hobbists, but I don't have enough facts to really comment on the most recent incident 'on the record' as I have previous. I didn't see who was driving, I wasn't able to follow up and find out whether it was a radio issue (though I do hear that was what is claimed - third hand hear-say) or what. I am just not comfortable commenting "on the record" except as to what I did see for myself.

There have been accidents in the past where bystanders or participants (boat drivers) were struck and injured at Spreckels. We are still here and hopefully, will continue to be.

And yes, enforcement is a multi-faceted issue as Kevin <MrLego> points out above since Spreckels Lake is open to anyone with a model and law enforcement in the City is stretched thin, though some of the Irregulars do say that when persuasion and 'social pressure' have failed, a few times when the horse patrols came by and there were speeders on the Lake, quiet words were exchanged and speed dropped. Also, there are rumors to the effect that there may apparently be a jurisdictional issue between Rec & Parks' Ranger force and the police department, but I have no direct knowledge of this. What I do know, the Club itself and 'the Irregulars" can do no more than use persuasion regarding compliance with the signs or Club rules.

Approaching the issue as an ex-Quality Assurance (QA) lead and tech though I look on this differently, though not callously, you might short hand it to ‘Man proposes; God/Allah Disposes.’*1 As man and our constructs are not perfect, whatever our efforts, accidents will happen. (Or more crudely from the digeratis’ point of view on something being ‘foolproof’ –“There are damned smart, crafty, talented and motivated fools out there!”)

The thing is though, the incidents seem to be happening more often than they used to and this is not the golden vision of an older fart looking back at a glorified past. There has been a change in the way the hobby works….

“Back in the day” we went for much longer periods between incidents / accidents even though significantly heavier boats were regularly running at much faster speeds (60 / 70+)*2 on the Lake. I remember the Club going for years without serious incidents (a boat getting away from its skipper and grounding or damaging another boat).

I think there are a number of reasons for this, but without getting into them all here for lack of space, I will just point towards two major issues that I think contribute to the issue; ones we can do something about without seriously affecting our enjoyment of the hobby.

1) The pervasive availability of fast Ready-To-Run (RTR) boats for, what comparatively is, dirt-cheap.
In the past, by the time you worked your way up to a truly fast boat (over 25mph) most participants had built one or two prior models and gained experience in boat handling with them. Now, regardless of experience, you can have boats capable of getting up to 60 mph, ready to go off the shelf, for a few hundred dollars; way too much boat for an inexperienced skipper.

RTR may be great for the retail / manufacturing end of the hobby, stimulating sales and getting people into the hobby much more easily than the old days, they can be hard on the participants and end-users. Education for the hobby’s newcomers would be one cure. Experience involving accidents is too 'expensive' a method in more ways than one.

As the instruction manual says:"This is not a toy" yet many RTRs sure seem to be marketed and sold that way and many apparently see them as toys.
2) The blind faith in the “infallibility” of our gear.
Our gear is not perfect; whether we buy it or build it. For example, I know a lot folks seem to think 2.4ghz circuitry especially is foolproof. I heard it again this week relating to the last two incidents. ‘How could it fail? It was a 2.4!’ That just ain’t so! There are known failure modes in 2.4, but many folks are apparently not aware of them and therefore not engineering their fast boats to compensate for them or implementing failsafe devices to shut their powerplants down, if at all. The RTRs I have seen do not seem planned for signal loss, etc.

In the old days, we expected RFI*3 and radio glitches and planned for it!

Cheap, single antenna 2.4ghz receiver packs from overseas do not seem a good idea for fast boats.

This is an attitude issue, which again can be changed with experience and education.
---------------------------------------------------
*1 An idiomatic translation of a phrase usually associated with Islam and the Qur'an, but possibly from idiomatic translation of a Hindi saying;

मुसाफ़िर: अच्छा, तो आप डॉक्टर बनेंगी? सुनीता: देखते हैं। इन्सान सोचता तो बहुत कुछ है।

Wanderer: Well, then you become a doctor?
Sunita: see. There is a lot a person thinks.

The Latin variant "Homo proponit, sed Deus disponit" cames from Die Imitatione Christi (Of the Imitation of Christ) written in 1495 by Thomas a Kempis

*2 The fastest record speed I remember is from the early 1900’s was a straight -running boat clocked at over 100 mph. I think the I posted the reference earlier somewhere in this thread from a Popular Mechanicx article but I am not sure.

*3 Hopefully we'll never see it, ever, but, for the truly paranoid, 2.4ghz jamming <and here>. This has been discussed on other RC venues...
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 12:47 PM
Registered User
San Jose CA
Joined Nov 2005
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I use to be a regular at Spreckels Lake a few years ago when I would run my scale electric boats. On Sundays it never was a problem with the fast electrics. If there were any at all on the lake they always showed a lot or respect for the other boaters. I have been planning on coming back to the lake on a regular basis but with all the negative reports about the fast boats I decided not to. I am hoping that in the future the club can get this issue sorted out so that everybody can enjoy the lake.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 01:10 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
craig_c's Avatar
USA, CA, San Francisco
Joined Apr 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikgin View Post
I use to be a regular at Spreckels Lake a few years ago when I would run my scale electric boats. On Sundays it never was a problem with the fast electrics. If there were any at all on the lake they always showed a lot or respect for the other boaters. I have been planning on coming back to the lake on a regular basis but with all the negative reports about the fast boats I decided not to. I am hoping that in the future the club can get this issue sorted out so that everybody can enjoy the lake.
Not a lot has changed - really.

The thing to remember is this, like most things that are talked about, are the things that are out of the ordinary. The proverbial man bites dog so they get commented on. News is new because it is outside the norm - people rarely discuss, 'oh and nothing untoward happened. Everybody had a great time,' except when they get home from the Lake, during officer's reports at a club meeting or in a semi-blogish thread like this.

The awareness of these incidents is higher and there is more discussion at the moment as there has been a run of bad luck/errors/radio failures/possible irresponsibility, etc. at the Lake over the last four weeks and that has pushed the issues to the forefront where they are being chewed over around the council fire so to speak. The last four weekends were, in this case, way out of the ordinary.

Reality is that you probably wouldn't see any difference from when you were running before, it is mainly the same bunch of guys running similar boats and the Lakeside regulars are usually pretty respectful of each other and the Lake. Come on back and have fun!

If you hang out at an investigative news website for all your news - you will need lots of anti-depressants.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 01:36 PM
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United States, CA, Castro Valley
Joined Mar 2012
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Nothing feels worse than being band from your favorite lake by law. This has happened to me and my buddies and it was for noise. After getting tossed out I would have done anything to have not had that happen. It really feels bad trust me.

So what could happen here. Well, it seems simple. The city could make it so that you need a permit to run here. Now ask yourself who would get permits to run. I bet it would be organized clubs. Why, because it would be easyer to shut down the whole club for one bad seed. So keep playing around with these issues and someone else will step in and stop men playing with toy boats. I do not want to find another lake, so please try and get this figured out before we all lose.

Thank you.

Gary
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 01:40 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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We are Gary, believe me, we are. I do not think that there is anyone amongst the various stakeholders and skippers on the Lake who take these issues lightly. Everyone I know on the Lake are trying to get them resolved in a better fashion than they have been in the past (hence the discussion).

Some of the twists to the problems are new, the core issues (speed/noise) are not but hopefully some of the possible solutions will be and hopefully will result in a better and more lasting fixes. One of the changes this time is an effort to get all the stakeholders in the Lake involved in a solution, not just the Club's members.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 07:53 PM
Fast Cal
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Joined Jul 2011
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I will be somewhat of a voice on here for the "Irregulars" us fast gas/electric guys do TRY to police the lake and let people know to watch out for others and to stay in the middle of the lake as much as possible and when pulling out or in to go slow. I am one of the many Irregulars who abide by this unwritten rule so that we may get along. IT is up to the individual to listen to us or not, BUT "WE" are NOT responsible for the "individual's" actions. This is a PUBLIC venue. NO ONE NOT EVEN THE SFMYC "OWNS" this lake. So we need to just get along and as for THOSE individuals who screw up they NEED to take responsibility for their own actions. Unfortunately we have no say when and IF the city gets involved. Once IF that happens I believe both the SFMYC and the public may suffer as well. Meaning the lake will be COMPLETELY shut off to boat traffic. This has been going on for years between the SFMYC and public boaters in general. WE cannot be held accountable for the few that show up that has disregard for public safety and other people's property. WE all ready watch out for ourselves and try to spread word and that is ALL WE can do. IF that one person strays from what we try to enforce let him suffer the consequences. IF the PUBLIC complains to the city then we have no power at all at the lake. IF we try to resolve the issue(s) amongst ourselves it is of noble effort. I have known these guys at the lake for a few years now.......there are a couple we try to tell time and time again to watch out for themselves and others but they tend to ignore us and do their own thing. Those individuals are easy to spot they tend to not stand where we are assigned and run every which way in the lake. As for the runaways incidents NOTHING IS FAILSAFE. Mechanical or electronic failsafes are NOT GUARANTEED to work 100% of the time! Current radio technology or FM WE ARE ALL PRONE to FAILURE it is an electronic device prone to interference and failing in general. Sailboaters AS WELL you cannot "CONTROL" the wind or the direction of the water current. and if you do use a radio YOU ARE ALL PRONE TO ELECTRONIC FAILURE and a stray boat. All EVERYONE at the lake can do is watch and hope we don't run into each other and worse hope we don't hit a human being. THAT BEING said enough of my 2 cents. Anyone else have anything to add?
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 08:01 PM
Age quod agis
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The sailboats and scale boaters are not disregarding the posted speed limit as only the go fast boats are.

It seems simple enough to stop the issue considering the city has already posted the rules for everyone to see.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 09:01 PM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvctiger View Post
I will be somewhat of a voice on here for the "Irregulars" us fast gas/electric guys do TRY to police the lake and let people know to watch out for others and to stay in the middle of the lake as much as possible and when pulling out or in to go slow. ................... THAT BEING said enough of my 2 cents. Anyone else have anything to add?
I have something to add, but Im in class and have to give a speech on community public safety soon... ironic isn't it?
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 10:31 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
craig_c's Avatar
USA, CA, San Francisco
Joined Apr 2007
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Addressing apparent misunderstanding of Lake rules / implications of the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD RC Boater View Post
The sailboats and scale boaters are not disregarding the posted speed limit as only the go fast boats are.
The "rules" do NOT apply to all boats.

The rules ONLY APPLY to Nitro and I/C powered model watercraft operating on Spreckels Lake. The speed limit for sail and electrics are, at present, virtually unlimited.

The practical speed limitations on your electric or sail boat are hull design, battery/motor combination or wind speed, ship-handling skills, experience, reflexes and your common sense.

What the rules mean in real and practical translation.
  • 15mph = 22 feet per second = 13.03 knots - (6.71 meters/second = 24.1 kilometers/hour)
Many scale electric boats can come close or exceed 22fps as can ALL the 'fast electric speed boats' except the smaller children's toys. So can a number of the sail boats with a good wind in their sheets as do most 100 yard sprinters by the time they reach high school. Fat boys like me: some what less but nearly there, at least for the first 50 yards or so.
  • 60 decibels at full throttle measured at 50 feet.
60 decibels = normal personal conversation level in a quiet room.

I doubt many gas boats could ever meet this requirement. Especially since, to be officially measured at full throttle at 50 feet, you would have to break the speed limit in almost all cases. I would argue that many electric boats exceed 60db as well, though not as badly as the gas boats. The sound of a car passing you at a distance of 25 feet is about 80 db, the background rumble of any city during the day.

(The commodore would be exceeding 60db at meetings as he projects well to be heard over the heater blower or other background noise, more if he's riled )
Up until sometime in the mid-Ninties, these were internal Club rules that did NOT apply to anyone other than Club members. For some reason, Rec and Parks adopted them along with their previous rules about when and where gas boats could run and put them on a sign, giving them the force of the municipal code. I was not around or a member of the Club at that time so I cannot comment as to how or why this occurred.

If you think through the practical implications of the "rules" for a minute, you can begin to see why the speed and noise restrictions are honored almost exclusively in the breach, especially by many non-member gas-boat drivers.

By the way, three of the last four incidents did NOT INVOLVE gas boats but small fast electrics that, as noted previously, are not covered by the Rec and Park signage.

The original rules, btw, were 25mph and 80 decibels at full throttle measured at 100 feet and, again, never applied to the public, Club members only.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 11:36 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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I have something to add, but Im in class and have to give a speech on community public safety soon... ironic isn't it?
Well you are gaining plenty of practical experience of the issues surrounding a contentious public safety issue. Maybe you can arrange for extra credit by doing a paper on the Lake and its skippers and stakeholders.

As always, looking forward to hearing what you have to say.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 11:59 PM
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I guess no one told the Parks And Rec Dept that electric rc boats hold the world speed record. They probably think that electrics are slow.

Don't get me wrong guys. I am all for the fast boats to run as well, but I am a huge proponent of following the posted safety rules. With all of the pedestrian traffic around the shore of Spreckles one can clearly see why the City posted the speed limit in the name of safety. It seems that Spreckles is not a good choice for fast boats.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 12:04 AM
Grumpa Tom
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Most likely the rules were originally written when 'fast electric boat' was not even in the dictionary because electric boats were slugs all the way up to the 90's or so.

Today, any numbnutz with $300+ can buy an RTR FE that goes 40+ MPH out of the box, toss it in the water totally clueless and wreak havoc. And sadly, there are a lot of numbnutz's out there.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 12:24 AM
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Fast electrics were there already in a embryonic form in the 70's, hand-wound motors and really really, really ugly! I'll see if I can find my little hull in the depths of the dungeon...er ... basement and post a pic some time No one had heard of brushless at the time.

As for you Grumpa.... yeah, in a number of cases I gotta concur. But I have to hope it is a lack of experience with boats that is usually the culprit; we can (hopefully) cure that. After all, not many can afford to blow $300 plus schmazollians away. On the other hand....
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 01:23 AM
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Well you are gaining plenty of practical experience of the issues surrounding a contentious public safety issue. Maybe you can arrange for extra credit by doing a paper on the Lake and its skippers and stakeholders.

As always, looking forward to hearing what you have to say.
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I guess no one told the Parks And Rec Dept that electric rc boats hold the world speed record. They probably think that electrics are slow.

Don't get me wrong guys. I am all for the fast boats to run as well, but I am a huge proponent of following the posted safety rules. With all of the pedestrian traffic around the shore of Spreckles one can clearly see why the City posted the speed limit in the name of safety. It seems that Spreckles is not a good choice for fast boats.
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Most likely the rules were originally written when 'fast electric boat' was not even in the dictionary because electric boats were slugs all the way up to the 90's or so.

Today, any numbnutz with $300+ can buy an RTR FE that goes 40+ MPH out of the box, toss it in the water totally clueless and wreak havoc. And sadly, there are a lot of numbnutz's out there.

Craig_C---ok, well craig... I gave a 10 minute community Public Safety speech, and I did mention the lake.. and... I wasn't taken too seriously by my classmates and they claimed my claims were "too hollywood" and laughed seriously...? anyways, I'll post what I said later down the line if anyone is interested.

SD RC Boater-- well see... the thing is, people don't think. Its like driving. If you see a crowd of people or children around, are you going to continue speeding? or slow down? People can't be going 40 MPH in a 25 MPH zone in the city. Theres a lot of variables and cautions that need to be taken. A child jumping out in the street, someone pulling out, etc. Same concept is applied here.

Kmot--- off the top of my head, I could name 2 that go to the lake and run like a fool; ignoring our warnings like a joke.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 03:21 AM
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Craig_C---ok, well craig... I gave a 10 minute community Public Safety speech, and I did mention the lake.. and... I wasn't taken too seriously by my classmates and they claimed my claims were "too hollywood" and laughed seriously...? anyways, I'll post what I said later down the line if anyone is interested.
What? They thought it was too much like a soap opera??? Truth is really stranger than fiction. And yes, I'd be interested.

And I agree, driving is a very, very excellent analogy - you do NOT learn to drive in a Testarossa, even if you own the track!!! I am seriously wondering about age limits for kids without parents or guardians present and watching or possibly restricting the type of boats by age. It's a crappy thing to do, saying you can't drive that kind of boat until you're 14 or whatever, but maybe it might help. There is a reason for trikes, training wheels, then 10 speeds. Feedback / ideas please.

Unfortunately, there are some folks who never learn to drive safely either.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 11:58 AM
Grumpa Tom
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When the parent is as clueless as the child, then what?
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 03:09 PM
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When the parent is as clueless as the child, then what?
Hahah I know of such a person who will remain nameless. Let's just say they are one of the ones causing the headaches.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 03:43 PM
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When the parent is as clueless as the child, then what?
And of course, this reminds of an old saying we had back when I was a industrial controls tech and Machine fabricator.

in consideration of building inherent safety into the machinery:

"it is impossible to make anything Idiot proof. One can only hope to make it idiot resistant. As soon as you do, they will only come out with a better, more resilient idiot."

As much work as I did to make sure the park ponds in Richmond to be boat friendly, I never broached the subject of fast IC or electric. Too much of a can of worms to open unless you actually are looking to go fishing.

the only park ponds we have that are large enough to accommodate speed runs are surrounded on all sides by... rather affluent neighborhoods. I don't think the richers would be appreciative of such schinanagins...

one of the guys who owns one of those old Edwardian era homes is one Phillipe Rose. Some of y'all might remember him as The Indian, the founding, and only original Member of the Village People.

Now, would YOU want that guy rushing out of his house to fuss you out for running a fast IC or electric in the midst of his bucolic, park like quietness?

No, really... put that little bit of mental sunshine into the third eye of your Imagination... The Indian, from the village people, running up, and fussing you out.

There... now you wont be able to sleep for a week. you are WELCOME!
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 04:16 PM
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No, really... put that little bit of mental sunshine into the third eye of your Imagination... The Indian, from the village people, running up, and fussing you out.

There... now you wont be able to sleep for a week. you are WELCOME!
"Y...R...U... running that boat on this lake?"

Yeah, thanks bgnome...
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 05:06 PM
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I've actually had a few opportunities to sit down with Mr. Rose, chat, and have beverages with the gentleman, and he's actually a very nice and personable gentleman.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 06:14 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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As much work as I did to make sure the park ponds in Richmond to be boat friendly, I never broached the subject of fast IC or electric. Too much of a can of worms to open unless you actually are looking to go fishing.
Hmmmm..... Guess that's a big advantage to having a venue that is 'old in the hobby,' dating from much more tolerant times like Spreckels is. You can still have the old 'legacy activities' like the free sailors and speed boats.

Though there seems to be an underlying assumption in many of the comments (and discussions I have had) that the speed boats are a turn off to the public, not just the bureaucracies. The exact opposite seems to be true for the spectators here at the Lake. Few spectators ever watch the sailboats, a number gather and some stop and chat with the scale electrics or steamers but the fast boats always have at least a bit of a crowd lining the pit cove who stop, watch oooh, ah and get their phones out to take pictures.

As much as I'm a scale modeler, I know that the go-fasties are probably the major attractant and the gateway 'drug'*1 for the hobby of model boating.

That hasn't really changed since the hobby got started. In the books from the hobby's early days, the 1880s through 1920s, the 'need or speed' and competition were always present. High speed steam engines and flash boilers make an very early debut in the sport.

-------------------------------

*1 The first taste is freeeee, someone lets ya skipper a boat for a while by a pretty lake, then ya builds a Springer an' than a tug. Nex' thing ya know, yer a-snortin' balsa dust at'ta workbench alla the time....
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 07:14 PM
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Good day to ya alllll...As some of you may have noticed I have the privilege and pleasure of the use of a really great older model from many years ago, in fact it has been on display in the club house for thirty years. The "Dixie Lea" was built in the mid 1970's by Al Collins, earliest photos are dated 1978. After he passed away his daughter donated the boat to the club. I ask for the privilege of getting it up and running again, I've installed a new 2.4 radio and electronics. She is a clam water boat as she sits real low in the water. I'm wondering with the wooden boats on parade coming up if anyone knows where his daughter is and how to contact her to invite her to she her dad's old "Dixie" churning the waters of the lake again. If your'e quiet when she passes you can hear the bubbling sound the water makes off the stern-wheel. Happy messin with boats......
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 07:27 PM
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As much as I agree with you craig... you gotta remember, that this old east coast town is VERY lazy, and we do like our our lazy pursuits..

really, the biggest hobbies around here are drinking, eating, and making conditions advantageous for the previous two. particularly the first.

all other hobbies pertain to the previous three mentioned. and tolerance of any hobby matters to the tolerance level derived to the after effects of the first.

and baring that, you need to cater to the happy tee-totaling family types which are typicaly recovering members of the first hobby mentionedm who are only in town long enough for thier blessed little snowflakes to reach schooling age, then they are moving to the outlaying counties where the schools and conditions are "better" and "safer"

I am personally in the business of separating these nice people of their hard discretionary income...

but the folks living in town.. the DINKS... Duel Income, No Kids types like to try to make this beautiful historic, but very urban, city a suburban paradise with urban park, then walk to get drunk conveniences.

you mentioned 80db as standard issue regular city back ground noise? the fair leaders of our city have established a 60DB no tolerance initiative. the cops have actually been issued DB meters to enforce the rule.
its actually quite insane and the ACLU has been brought in on the matter.


its very VERY difficult to find a venue for anything that goes fast or makes a lot of noise around here, so I made it a point to not to push the issue, I play with vintage 0.49 engines but i gotta go about an hour out of my way to fly those wee little planes just to make sure I dont piss off the right person.

the lake the AMYC club I belong to uses has a specific no power rule. we can ONLY run sail out there. And upcoming Seawind RG3 nationals event was double booked, we booked it first, but WE have to give way for the charity walk.

its a tough row to hoe.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 08:41 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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And upcoming Seawind RG3 nationals event was double booked, we booked it first, but WE have to give way for the charity walk.
We've had that issue many times as well. Fortunately, Spreckels usually lies just outside the center of most concerts, festivals and such like things that happen and the charity walks and marathons pass us by but there is sometimes enough impact that we have to move events to another date.

We have similar situations to your dual income/no kids folks here in SF so I feel your discomfort with some of the things they do. Worse, many of ours are transient renters, students, young professionals and digerati with no local stake other than school or job, very NIMBY, pretty self-centered and in many cases very vocal and politically savvy.

The setting of a base level of 60db for a city is ludicrous when a car going by is 80db and the interior of your moving car is about 70db t0 75db. (BTW, I get my db levels from a variety of industrial and official sources, here is one such pdf.) You can't even measure a 60db noise source if your background is 70 or 80bd. We had similar situations in Cali as well. Local gomerments set environmental levels so low that the signal was lost in the Brownian noise of even the best detectors.

(UPDATE: One of the Irregulars has a db meter app on his iPhone - reads ambient background at the Lake during running hours as 73 to 77 decibels.)

There are lots of local councilors and others of the public who think the power of the state can turn back time and tide and very few as wise as King Knut of the Saxons who stood upon the seashore in his dripping shoes and cloak saying thus is the earthy power of Kings, Princes and the state.

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its a tough row to hoe.
Frustrating too.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 09:19 PM
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Craig sir, you would be AMAZED at how very simular our two cities are, in fact... most people would be insanly amazed at how our little burgs are simular.

if you want to flop the west coast for the east coast.... LA would be DC, and RD would be SF.

of course, if Richmond were DC, then Petersburg would be Baltimore... but we wont speak of either Petersburg or Baltimore... its best that way.

but really RD is like SF in more ways than just what you speak of.. we have all THOSE issues, but we also have all the good stuff as well. including a native population of non migratory bums.

I recently had, as a regular at the pub, a young Gentleman who was independently wealthy, a SF native, who loved Richmond for all the similarities, but couldn't wait to get back to SF and "civilization"

we were glad to be done with the insufferable prick actually. so I'm sorry, it looks like we gave one back to you, we tried., honestly we did.

Unfortunately, the closest thing we have to an Emperor Norton is a 400lb drag queen that goes by the name of "Dirt Woman"

I just call him Donny, and tell him to take a bath every once in a while.

Well, I guess Fmr Gov Doug Wilder could fall under the description of power mad lunatic, but I don't want to give him any more credence than he already have comparing him favorably to Emp. Norton.


but, world class cuisine and Bar culture. incredible art scene. fairly liberal, live and live culture. years and years of interesting, unique, and excentric history...

we were the wild west of the eastern frontier. the founding fathers met here to plot the seeds of the revolutionary war because we were nothing but a treacherous inland port town and they could conduct their discussions in relative secrecy.

Saint johns Episcopal church, the church for which the church hill Nieghbor hood was named for, was the sight of the first Virgina Congress, where Patrick Henry gave his "give me Liberty or give me death" speech was chosen because it was the largest gathering hall available, and at the time it was smaller than most of our living rooms at the time. The resident population of the city was 625 souls.

it was a port town of transients and the biggest industry was tobacco warehouses and brothels.

y'all had gold, we had cured gold Virgina leaf.


so yeah... it's amusing that where great proclomations of Liberty that helped to found the nation has the polizai fussing at patio parties with DB meters and putting "known offenders" on google map search so thier neighbors can chastise them


sorry... rambling... on a local history kick because i'm doing research on a new line of local Urban Legend inspired beers... the Brewery is called Legend brewery company, and the tag line is "Legend has it..."
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Old Sep 20, 2012, 07:43 AM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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Makin' friends by the Lake.

Was out the Lake this morning waiting go into a meeting with some of the other Club members about what's been going on vis--vis the go-fasties, chatting with <BobSF> by the shore where he was running his tug when I caught this scene of his boat making friends.

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Old Sep 20, 2012, 09:25 AM
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Excellent !

The water looks good and clean in those shots too ~

There are times when it's not a good idea to put a white boat in at this lake ~
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Old Sep 21, 2012, 09:35 PM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Just Perfect timing before the event at Spreckels Lake...
There is now a new addition to the 47' Motor Lifeboat club!
The conversion of this boat will be held as a secret as well as the new owner.
Hopefully we will get this running before the 30th of Sept.
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Old Sep 21, 2012, 10:33 PM
Grumpa Tom
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If I get a chance to come up to Spreckel's some day I will bring mine. It would be neat to see five running at one time.
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Old Sep 21, 2012, 11:00 PM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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If I get a chance to come up to Spreckel's some day I will bring mine. It would be neat to see five running at one time.
Definitely!!! That would be awesome!

We're trying to get 8 running at once!!
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Old Sep 22, 2012, 11:08 PM
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Friday Evening Go-Fasties....

Was out for a walk, found these folks having fun at the Lake....

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Old Sep 22, 2012, 11:42 PM
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Nice pictures, as usual, Craig. What kind of camera? Seems to have a high megapixel count.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 12:08 AM
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Nikon D300 - 12.3-MP shot using 14bit NEF (Nikon Raw) format and a vintage 80-200mm D series lens, pretty much my default shooting configuration.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 06:17 PM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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September 23, 2012...
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 01:02 AM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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Woot, Dude!!! Wow, lookin *REALLY* spec!!!
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 10:17 PM
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The Dixia Lea looks pretty cool. Haven't seen that boat before at the lake.
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Old Sep 25, 2012, 01:37 AM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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The Dixia Lea looks pretty cool. Haven't seen that boat before at the lake.
Hey VSpeeds, you going to be out at the lake September 30? and if so, you going to be running?
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Old Sep 25, 2012, 07:19 PM
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Nice pictures Mr.Lego!
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 12:37 AM
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Mr lego, if im not working that day i'll bring Marine 1...but most likely ill have to work.
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 01:54 AM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Mr lego, if im not working that day i'll bring Marine 1...but most likely ill have to work.
aww.. its cool. If you bring Marine 1, drop me a text
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 08:02 AM
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oops... was a PM

Anyway! See some of you (wish it were all of you) at the Lake Sunday for WBOP
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 03:44 PM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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oops... was a PM

Anyway! See some of you (wish it were all of you) at the Lake Sunday for WBOP
mmm... Im concerned about parking...
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 04:03 PM
BabyBootLegger
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What time should we get there?
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 06:32 PM
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I heard there are other events in the park which will make even more crowded...

I will be there NLT 8:00 AM.

Sunworksco I will look for you, we will finally get to meet !
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 06:52 PM
BabyBootLegger
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Thanks Tim.
Commodore Bob knows me and can point me out.
Regards,
Giovanni
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 07:47 PM
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I heard there are other events in the park which will make even more crowded...
What events are those, Tim B.? Looking at the R&P schedule, it looks like the usual, regularly scheduled stuff.

???
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 07:49 PM
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Iff'n ya don' wantz ta be put ta work... anytime after 9am - but the parking will probably be pretty degraded by that point so maybe help carry a table or two??
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 07:59 PM
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What events are those, Tim B.? Looking at the R&P schedule, it looks like the usual, regularly scheduled stuff.

???
Still lookng into it, I got a possibly amibiguous report from my other half that she had seen something in the SF Chronicle about some activities in that part of the City, I cant find anything other than the 20 year anniversary for Critical Mass, thats today and wouldnt effect us any way.

I hope its QUIET !
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 09:32 PM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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PLEASE don't jump to a conclusion if you aren't sure and you don't have all the facts.
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Old Sep 30, 2012, 12:58 AM
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On the 30th there's a concert at the east end of the park: Alice Now & Zen Concert – Sharon Meadow.

Now next weekend, Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival, Friday thru Sunday

That will bring more people and cars to the park than I'd care to deal with.
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Old Sep 30, 2012, 11:02 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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It were a good day -

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Old Sep 30, 2012, 11:44 PM
Grumpa Tom
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Very cool photos MrLego.
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Old Sep 30, 2012, 11:45 PM
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Oakland Ca.
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Indeed a cool morning.
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 12:04 AM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Originally Posted by Kmot View Post
Very cool photos MrLego.
thanks! I still have a few more here... but I kept getting disconnected and the photos don't get posted...
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 01:02 AM
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United States, CA, San Jose
Joined Aug 2012
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Hi everyone

I know I'm a neewbie here but I'm happy I was able to head up to the city to see everyone's great models. Since I'm currently building a SC&H Brig, I was partial to Gary's Surprise. : ) Hope to sail together some day.

A few more pictures from todays event. Gary and Bob, thank you for the nice time. I only wish I could have stayed around for the hamburgers. : (

the club house




HMS Surprise...even more impressive in person












the crowd gathers


even the locals are excited


Some of the other models on display

































happy sailing
Tim









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Old Oct 01, 2012, 01:18 AM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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Welcome aboard, Mr. Bowman

Great shots Nice to have a new contributor.
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 01:29 AM
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Elk Grove, CA
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It were a good day -

Yes it were a good day. Thanks Craig
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 01:29 AM
Grumpa Tom
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United States, CA, Los Angeles
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Hi Tim,

You're A-OK in my book! Any man that can handle a camera like you do is more than welcome to hang out with the rest of us reprobates here on the forum.
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 01:32 AM
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Thank you to everyone who posted pictures. I forgot to bring my camera.
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 01:33 AM
Sea Dragon-Lover
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PDX, OR
Joined Dec 2002
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Great pictures of the Motor Lifeboats.
However it is a bit disturbing to see the SFPD looking more armored than Navy Seals.

Thanks everyone for posting pictures.

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Old Oct 01, 2012, 02:43 AM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umi_Ryuzuki View Post
Great pictures of the Motor Lifeboats.
However it is a bit disturbing to see the SFPD looking more armored than Navy Seals.

Thanks everyone for posting pictures.

Thats cause Navy Seals are more elite than the SFPD
Navy Seals will take out their enemy before the enemy goes "Oh Sh-t!, grab your weapons!"
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 02:46 AM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Smalltown, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vspeeds View Post
Thank you to everyone who posted pictures. I forgot to bring my camera.
Hey, stay tuned! Theres more coming I bet!
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 03:35 AM
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San Jose CA
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A few more picts

Mike G
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 12:13 PM
Boats on the brain!!
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Arnold, Mo.
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What's with the BIG piece of chrome?
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 12:46 PM
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Oakland Ca.
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Its the bottom of a metal hulled boat a guy made ( you can see the top in this pic )
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 01:23 PM
Grumpa Tom
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United States, CA, Los Angeles
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Thanks for the photos you guys!

You know, photos are great and we appreciate it very much. But, we need VIDEO as well, when these special events take place.
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 01:51 PM
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United States, CA, Castro Valley
Joined Mar 2012
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Ah, grasshopper. You have to walk before you can run. ;-) it takes longer to edit video to get something worth watching. The great thing about digital photos is that they can get posted almost live, but a movie, now that's a piece of art and takes a bit longer. But in that you live in Tinssel Town you know that and you are just giving us a ribbing. I shot video but need to clean and put boats away and stuff. I hope to soon post my humble and yet a bit crappy video this month myself. To all you who have shot images and posted them thank you very much. It's really appreciated and if you find more later please share. For those who have not posted the shots they got, well I will just put a sardeen in my mouth and wait with baited breath.

Great day at the lake. So much better than two years ago. ;-)

G
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 02:32 PM
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Oakland Ca.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmot View Post
Thanks for the photos you guys!

You know, photos are great and we appreciate it very much. But, we need VIDEO as well, when these special events take place.
Big Chris Craft model launch 1 (0 min 43 sec)
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 02:34 PM
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Oakland Ca.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmot View Post
Thanks for the photos you guys!

You know, photos are great and we appreciate it very much. But, we need VIDEO as well, when these special events take place.
This model has an on board starter ... !

Chris Craft boat model launch (2 min 48 sec)
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 02:50 PM
r/c ships and workboats
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Great photos of what looked to be another great gathering.
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 03:42 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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USA, CA, San Francisco
Joined Apr 2007
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Big WWII-era gun comes to Golden Gate

Now, if they only brought the mount , breech-lock and a few rounds for every Fourth! (and a couple on New Years!)
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 04:24 PM
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Oakland Ca.
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Jeez what a job to haul that thing ...
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 04:35 PM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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2012 Wooden Boats on Display
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 06:03 PM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Smalltown, USA
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2012 Wooden Boats on Display
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 06:20 PM
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United States, ID, CDA
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WOW!, WOW! and WOW!

Terry
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 09:02 PM
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United States, OR, Portland
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Great time. Made lots of friends. Here's a pic of Glen's beautiful Delta Belle.
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 09:13 PM
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United States, OR, Portland
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And it was great to finally meet Jay Selby!
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 09:17 PM
made of fire and pop rocks
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Richmond Virginia
Joined Oct 2009
1,711 Posts
The Delta Bell is a reworked Dumas Creole queen isn't it?

that boat is on my Tower hobbies wish list

I have a lingering desire to build it as a distressed Ghost ship
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