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Old Nov 29, 2011, 10:57 PM
Fast Cal
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The National Park oversees the lake. The SFMYC is its own organization. The signs you see are put up by the National Park Service. Sailboats can run anytime. We have an understanding that the sailboats stay usually on the Fulton side of the lake. The battery powered boats and propelled boats stay on the JFK part of the lake. Frequencies SHOULD always be checked with others if you have an AM/FM transmitter before you power on. Battery powered boats can run anytime. As always with common sense and common courtesy.
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Old Nov 29, 2011, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChanceJ View Post
...what is posted there on the two signs ... It states sail boats could run anytime unless theres an Internal combustion boat which runs 10am to 1pm which then the sailboats need to get out.
Where does it say that?
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Old Nov 29, 2011, 11:32 PM
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The City of San Francisco owns Golden Gate Park and its confines, including Spreckels Lake. The Park and Recreation Department manages Golden Gate Park. The Lake was constructed for the use of the San Francisco Model Yacht Club in 1904. Since that time the Club has been the benign caretaker of the lake and model boat activities.

http://www.timeshutter.com/image/spr...sco-california

The rules are imposed by Park & Rec.

At one time a few years ago the noisy nitro or gas boats created a situation that almost closed the lake to gas boats, due to the noise echoing down the street on the north side of the park. After much lobbying by the members of the Club, the crisis was averted, and gas boats can be run before 1 PM on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays [as last I recall].

RC boats are free to run until 1 PM. If you come to the lake at anytime, and there's an organized activity going on or a Power Squadron event, just ask the boaters if you can run [out of their way] and verify that you won't be in conflict with the radios, even spectrum radios, just out of courtesy.

In my day, I would often let people run while we had a power squadron event as long as they ran out of the way and didn't have any potential radio conflicts. That way they get a chance to run and might come back to participate another day.

The Sail Squadron runs after 1 PM any time unless by prior agreement the other rc boat events may carry on into the afternoon.

As caretaker for the Lake, the Club has arranged for other places to run when the Lake was drained or under repair. The Lake at Portals of the past was used one year for recreational boating. The westernmost casting pond has been used for many military events, allowing the submariners to actually see their boats submerged.

All in all its through friendly cooperation that all can enjoy the facilities in the Park.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Aerominded View Post
Where does it say that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tugs View Post
The City of San Francisco owns Golden Gate Park and its confines, including Spreckels Lake. The Park and Recreation Department manages Golden Gate Park. The Lake was constructed for the use of the San Francisco Model Yacht Club in 1904. Since that time the Club has been the benign caretaker of the lake and model boat activities.

http://www.timeshutter.com/image/spr...sco-california

The rules are imposed by Park & Rec.

At one time a few years ago the noisy nitro or gas boats created a situation that almost closed the lake to gas boats, due to the noise echoing down the street on the north side of the park. After much lobbying by the members of the Club, the crisis was averted, and gas boats can be run before 1 PM on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays [as last I recall].

RC boats are free to run until 1 PM. If you come to the lake at anytime, and there's an organized activity going on or a Power Squadron event, just ask the boaters if you can run [out of their way] and verify that you won't be in conflict with the radios, even spectrum radios, just out of courtesy.

In my day, I would often let people run while we had a power squadron event as long as they ran out of the way and didn't have any potential radio conflicts. That way they get a chance to run and might come back to participate another day.

The Sail Squadron runs after 1 PM any time unless by prior agreement the other rc boat events may carry on into the afternoon.

As caretaker for the Lake, the Club has arranged for other places to run when the Lake was drained or under repair. The Lake at Portals of the past was used one year for recreational boating. The westernmost casting pond has been used for many military events, allowing the submariners to actually see their boats submerged.

All in all its through friendly cooperation that all can enjoy the facilities in the Park.
what is sail and power squadron? I am not part of any of those.


aerominded,

http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/at...S-Sign.web.jpg


those signs that are posted. It says "Sail boats shall have access of the lake at all other times"
maybe not get out... but it seems like it states sail boats don't have access if they gas boats are running at that time?
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 01:03 AM
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The reason I bring this up is because it seems that every once in a while, I hear a SFMYC member stating rules that are expected for local residents to know off hand.
I also hear stories of SFMYC members telling other RCÚrs off... like they aren't allowed to run here.

I went out to the lake one Sunday, and I stood by an RC crowd as I asked if anyone was using 27 Mhz and if it was ok to run with them. They replied and said it was ok, but when I saw a family bring out a sailboat about 200 feet away from us on the right near the trees, one of the RCÚr running the boat with the red white and blue SFMYC flag on it said "hey, those sailboaters aren't allowed to run till 1pm."

I didn't want to say anything as I didn't want to cause any conflict, and the RCÚr didn't do anything to the family, but I wanted to know is there some kind of rule that says specific boats are suppose to run at specific times if they are deemed safe, and hazard free; like a slow scale boat or sail boat.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ChanceJ View Post
what is sail and power squadron? I am not part of any of those.

[edited]

those signs that are posted. It says "Sail boats shall have access of the lake at all other times"
maybe not get out... but it seems like it states sail boats don't have access if they gas boats are running at that time?
If you're not power or sail, you might be a little dinghy, the only other boat allowed on the Lake, usually to save a distressed vessel.

As stated earlier, observe the "courtesy rules" and I might add common sense should prevail, though not very common and rarely sensible.

No boater should put his boat in peril. If you can't control your sailboat or electric, stay out of the way. I've seen too many people put their boats in the water without turning on their receivers and stand there holding their useless transmitter while their boat races across the lake at full tilt, until it bumps into the far shore. When the water is high we've had a few boats hit innocent bystanders and even land in the middle of Fulton and 36th Ave. Yes sailboats tend to stay right there or float with the wind, waiting to be rescued by a kindly electric tug.

Some nitro or gas guys don't have the class that the old guard had, see http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1535929
Ken Reilly and his ilk were artisans, tuning their boats and engines and setting standards that we rarely see today. Thanks to Messers Valk, Cucci and Garis we can see what gas boating really should be.

Hopefully we can have more cooperation and respect and enjoy this marvelous treasure that we call Spreckels Lake.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChanceJ View Post
aerominded,

those signs that are posted. It says "Sail boats shall have access of the lake at all other times"
maybe not get out... but it seems like it states sail boats don't have access if they gas boats are running at that time?
I think the sign says: "Sail boats shall have full access of the lake at all other times."

I don't think the sign says: "Sail boats don't have access if the gas boats are running."
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 11:27 AM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tugs View Post
If you're not power or sail, you might be a little dinghy, the only other boat allowed on the Lake, usually to save a distressed vessel.

As stated earlier, observe the "courtesy rules" and I might add common sense should prevail, though not very common and rarely sensible.

No boater should put his boat in peril. If you can't control your sailboat or electric, stay out of the way. I've seen too many people put their boats in the water without turning on their receivers and stand there holding their useless transmitter while their boat races across the lake at full tilt, until it bumps into the far shore. When the water is high we've had a few boats hit innocent bystanders and even land in the middle of Fulton and 36th Ave. Yes sailboats tend to stay right there or float with the wind, waiting to be rescued by a kindly electric tug.

Some nitro or gas guys don't have the class that the old guard had, see http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1535929
Ken Reilly and his ilk were artisans, tuning their boats and engines and setting standards that we rarely see today. Thanks to Messers Valk, Cucci and Garis we can see what gas boating really should be.

Hopefully we can have more cooperation and respect and enjoy this marvelous treasure that we call Spreckels Lake.
damn tugs... cut the guy some slack... Its that kind of attitude discourages people from getting into the hobby. I believe also that ChanceJ also STATED that he observed the rules posted and STATED he does use common courtesy. Please BE COURTEOUS and DO NOT attack other members. Educating and informing is the best way to ensure safety and tranquility.

I can kind of see where ChanceJ is going with this.

ChanceJ, Sail squadron and power squadron refers to the boats youre running. Sail is sailboats and power is power boats.
I didn't know what sail squadron or power squadron was either; but was lucky enough to find a group of boaters to educate me on what they were. Don't feel bad; you aren't the only one.

The lake is not owned by the SFMYC, so any "member" who acts like they own the lake, just ignore them if they're causing trouble and telling you what you can and can not run. but please do run your boat safely and courteously without disrupting anyone, anything; anyone including wildlife.

CVCtiger stated it well in an earlier post. The actual rules that apply to your boat is posted as you have observed. which on this present day are those brown signs which states 7 rules. According to Park Code Regulations Article 3, section 2 states, "Signs To Be Obeyed. "
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 03:40 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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I cannot believe this is still going on...

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Originally Posted by craig_c View Post
I know everyone hates me putting this up as it really has no enforceable meaning, but it kinda' does cover the old rules-of-thumb on the Lake in addition to my personal (non-binding) understanding of the Recreation & Park Dept. signs which may or may not be accurate.


Most of it is common sense when you come down to it; the extreme east and west ends of the Lake are too small for a big go-fastie to maneuver and loud boats shouldn't be running on the north shore because of the noise that reaches the residents of Fulton Street beyond the tree line.

---------------------------------------------

OK, Quick refresher course: the applicable law
from the Park Code section of the San Francisco Municipal Code...

(plus the posting on the signs).


SEC. 3.02. SIGNS TO BE OBEYED.
No person shall willfully disobey the notices,
prohibitions or directions on any sign posted by
the Recreation and Park Commission or the
Recreation and Park Department. (Added by
Ord. 603-81, App. 12/18/81)

also

SEC. 4.01. - DISORDERLY CONDUCT.

No person shall, in any park without permission of the Recreation and Park Department:
(d) Carry or use a model airplane which is powered by liquid fuel or designed to be used with such fuel;

And they just added the " No Smoking" sign... SF Health Code, Article 19I


Older(original) sign up a tree,
north (sail) side of Spreckles Lake...

"Model Yacht Facility
No Fishing Allowed
Power boats on south side of lake only between 10am and 1pm Tuesday, Thursday & Saturday only"


and the new signage in a couple of places near the power 'pit area' on the south side of the Lake reads...
  1. Internal Combustion (IC) and Nitro powered boats may be operated on the lake from 10amto 1pm Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays only. Sail boats shall have full access of the lake at all other times.
  2. IC and Nitro powered boats must not be operated at speeds in excess of 15 MPH and must not exceed a decibel noise level of 60 at full throttle at 50' from the meter on shore.
  3. All local and state laws must be observed in the interest of safety.
  4. Powered boats are to steer clear of all wildlife on the lake.
  5. No more than two IC or Nitro powered boats may be operated on the lake at any one time.
  6. IC/Nitro powered boats shall be run in a clockwise direction and remain outside of the far-east and far-west ends of the lake.
  7. Radio frequency flags must be properly displayed on antennas whenever in use.
Fine for breaking the rules - $100 minimum; escalating for multiple infractions with possible time in then county jail of up to six months.

About the yellow shaded areas on my map. The WORKING AGREEMEENT and the Club's rules are the common sense areas to go slow and exercise caution due to the potential of hitting other boats and, more importantly, injuring spectators, many of whom are small children.

If you have an accident because your were running at excessive speed in these yellow shaded areas close to shore, your NAMBA insurance will probably not cover your accident (see NAMBA's rules and their 50 foot from shore exclusionary rule). Think about that if you put a child in the hospital.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChanceJ View Post
I overheard a conversation recently and for the safety of others, I will not mention any names. but a while ago, I overheard and somewhat joined a conversation and I am curious if the SFMYC (San Francisco Model Yacht Club) owns the lake, Spreckels Lake.
In the main NO; it is a public lake open to all under the SF Recreation and Park Rules.

But in some (unofficial) ways, YES, in that:
  1. The Lake was built specifically for the Club
  2. On land donated to the Park for the Club on the condition
  3. that the Club will have access to and use of the Lake in perpetuity.
  4. The Club does help clean up The Lake and coordinate with Recreation and Parks Dept and their gardeners as to Its care; e.g. cleaning up bird and goose ourselves as well as other things.
  5. The Clubhouse was built specifically for the Club to reside in (in perpetuity) by the Federal WPA program with monies from the Club, Federal Government and with further monies raised specifically for the purpose by a City government led public subscription during the darkest days of The First Modern Great Depression.
So, there is an understandable sense of proprietorship, love and care that the Club feels toward The Lake, which is also one of the oldest facilities of its kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChanceJ View Post
It states sail boats could run anytime unless theres an Internal combustion boat which runs 10am to 1pm which then the sailboats need to get out.
Sailboats have use of the Lake whenever The Lake (Park) is open to the public per Rec and Parks Dept..

The SFMYC's "Open Water Policy" can be summed up as any boat, except those powered by a IC or nitro engine can use The Lake as long as the Park is open to the public after checking for frequency conflicts.

(The tradition on The Lake regarding frequency conflicts is that the holder of the frequency shall have 15 minutes of run time after being asked for the frequency except in the case of a steamboat where it will be 30 minutes due to the preparation time required for a steam boat. After which time, the boater shall relinquish the frequency to the first person who asked for it. If there is a que for the frequency, each person will have a 15 minute run time except for steamboats.)

The only type of boats restricted under Recreation and Park rules as the when they can run are Nitro/Internal Combustion boats as stated above.

The "Gentlemen's Agreements" (Basically, the rules that cover all Club members and that "The Irregulars" (the regular crew of power/gas boaters who are Lakeside regulars but who choose not to join the SFMYC) agree amongst themselves to abide by as well, have been in place at the Lake and evolved over more than 50 years for safety reasons that grew out of frequency conflict issues, accidents, some significant injuries and some insurance issues, as well as Calvin's <cvctiger> (not-so-)common sense.

Another reason is the complaints from the public that have nearly closed the Lake to boats in the past which is why Nitro/IC boats must never be unmuffled (60db at full throttle at 50' from the meter) or run on the Northern Area of the Lake. The noise issues caused by people who refused to muffle their boats are big part of why the north side of The Lake is closed to Power boats.

That is the same reason that the the current noise restrictions exist. A number of people refused to muffle their boats so in response to complaints, so Rec & Parks Dept instituted a permissible noise level of 80db @ full throttle at 100 ft back in the 80's. Some people refused to comply with that standard which was quite reasonable all things considered, so Recreation and Parks lowered the legal noise level to a much more severe 60db @ full throttle at 50 feet which is very difficult to meet. ( If you need help getting there - Talk with Julio <RACER59> He can help you muffle your IC boat.)

Originally, Rec & Parks did not limit the speed of the boats on Spreckels Lake, nor did the SFMYC. In the Eighties, in response to an accident, the insurance crisis (as I recall) and to reduce the noise levels both the Club and Recreation and Parks instituted a 25mph limit on gas boats on The Lake. Again, I am told, because of repeated violations, Rec & Parks reduced it further to to 15mph.

The "Gentlemens' Agreements" are there so we don't have Rec & Parks coming down to The Lake, blowing the whistle and yelling, "OK, that's it!!! Everybody out of the lake! Now! Permanently!"

Central Park's Conservatory Pond, a historic model boating venue with a long and noble tradition of power boating of all kinds, is now a place where now no powered boat of any kind dare tarnish its surface nor disturb its tranquil ripples lest the swabbie responsible collect a $100 fine. (Many of the locals are now spreading the myth that power boats were NEVER allowed upon Conservatory Ponds' waters.)


Play nice! Hopefully it will NEVER happen here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChanceJ View Post
... but when I saw a family bring out a sailboat about 200 feet away from us on the right near the trees, one of the RCÚr running the boat with the red white and blue SFMYC flag on it said "hey, those sailboaters aren't allowed to run till 1pm."
Back in the "Old Days" (pre-2.4ghz binding, frequency agile, data packet radio control) when 72 mhz was a ground freq, mammoths bathed in Spreckels, Sabertooth Tigers kept the yappy purse dogs populations down and we walked 20 miles to the Clubhouse in 20 foot snowdrifts; uphill both ways..., This was mainly because of the limited number of frequencies available and due to the fact that power boats run on the south side of The Lake over near JFK Drive and Sail ran on the North Side of The Lake, coordinating frequencies became a cavebear to say the least so the Club split running times so that there was no need for folks to keep running around the lake checking frequencies or yelling about radio conflicts.

As this is really no longer absolutely necessary due to 2.4gh radios and AM/FM frequency scanners, the 'power in the morning and sail in afternoon' Club rule has slipped into disuse except in the case of Rec & Park's rules and signage regarding Nitro and IC. However, members of the public should be made aware of the fact that their radio may conflict with the control and safety of other boats and that it is an 'agreed upon' courtesy to check frequencies with others on The Lake as well as a part of Rec. and Park Dept's safety regulation to display a frequency flag/number.

It is part of the responsibility of EVERYONE WHO USES THE LAKE to help educate the public on how to run their boats in a safe manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChanceJ View Post
I also hear stories of SFMYC members telling other RCÚrs off... like they aren't allowed to run here.
There are times that, yeah, members go too far, and some have been disciplined for doing so. If you see it happening, grab another member and point out the issue or drop a note to the Commodore, he's there a lot of Saturdays and Sundays. If the member has overstepped the lines, he'll get his wings clipped. If I'm there, let me know - the name's on the shirt for a reason .

BUT... If I see someone creating an unsafe situation in the pits or on the water, member or not, then yeah, then I am gonna call him or her out over it. The thing that all of us, Club members and Irregulars, alike worry about is someone losing control of a boat and it egressing the Lake at speed and then hitting the crowd.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 03:52 PM
Fast Cal
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It wasn't a complaint just a clarification for the person who had a question about the rules. All in all just use common sense and be courteous of others and if unsure of how things run at this lake, just come by and observe others and feel free to ask questions then.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 06:53 PM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig_c View Post
post #1209
you know... this is why I like craig from the SFMYC. He's honest, knowledgeable, and patient enough to educate and!!!! he takes good photos to document things!

and he's made nice little pamphlets for people to take at Franciscan Hobbies!
even though I knocked them over a few times and had to pick them up... whoops...
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 11:50 PM
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nice
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Old Dec 03, 2011, 04:28 PM
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I'll put my two cents worth in on this as I was there on the mentioned Sunday. It was a great day to mess around with a boat day, many of us that run together where there. The "sail Boats" mentioned were down to the right of us on the point toward the east end. I had a little problem in that all of a sudden my boat started to act funny and I brought it to shore. Put it on my table and it kept acting up, like major interferance. Turned off both t&r and started to check channels, using a scanner, I found there was another radio beening used on that frequency. Apon further checking, no one in the group was on that channel, walking down with the scanner and looking at the two sail boats radios, yes, one was on the channel I had been on. No channel number/flags were displayed, only the little sticker on the back. When I tried to talk to the guy he could haved cared less. I walked away and didn't run any more. As far as I know THEY didn't come over and check frequencies with any of us. If it had been a fast boat or one out in the middle there may have been problems. The only problem I see with sail boats before 1 PM is they may not be seen by someone running a fast electric. Check, ask, see what is going on before just throwing a boat in the water. Happy messing around with boats.
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Old Dec 03, 2011, 04:39 PM
Fast Cal
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Joined Jul 2011
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Yep common sense like I said....It has been mentioned time and time again but some people who are newbies to the area don't bother checking which I know sucks and some people can be such a--holes. As all of us common "Irregulars" know to check with everyone else IF we do not have a 2.4MHZ system.
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Old Dec 03, 2011, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPL.FUZZ View Post
The only problem I see with sail boats before 1 PM is they may not be seen by someone running a fast electric.
Sorry to hear that someone stepped on your channel and didn't even think to check and did not respond politely to you CPL.FUZZ. Re: your point above, you could easily replace "sail boats" with "slow moving scale boats" and have the same potential for problems.

It is always the resposibility of the person with the fast boat to look ahead of where it is going and to avoid collision with slower moving boats. "Stay ahead of the boat" is the operator's responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvctiger View Post
Yep common sense like I said....It has been mentioned time and time again but some people who are newbies to the area don't bother checking...
I had one incident during an event I was participating in where sombody turned on a radio while I was in the water- I was operating a slow tugboat on 75Mhz, with a barge, so the fact that it was out of control was not much of an issue... but, the conflict did do damage to the steering system and the rudder got chewed up by the prop. This was on a Sunday. By Monday, I was on 2.4Ghz.
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