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Old Sep 16, 2012, 04:16 PM
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United States, CA, Pacifica
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Originally Posted by Tim B. View Post
Thanks Gents...
Looks very cool, googled it, nuttin.
It's a KNK Jupiter made in Japan. They still sell the kit it's just under a different name. I'm restoring the Jaguar now with the original Baybit 37cc. Here's the web page http://knk.client.jp/top.html you need to translate but it does show pics.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 01:11 AM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
craig_c's Avatar
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Joined Apr 2007
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Despite the weather that started out foggy and cold, today was a very good day on the Lake . The electric scale crowd, the Irregulars and the e-go-fasties were there in the morning to take advantage of open water for electric and steam powered boats and another different group of e-go-fasties that comes out to the Lake in the late afternoon (after 4pm) after the sailboats migrate back to the clubhouse.

Gerry <Cpl.Fuzz> brought the Dixie Lea back out for the morning after tearing out her electronics (which had gotten wet yesterday as the Dixie tends to ship a bit of water in her current configuration) to dry and remount higher in the hull. Success!! Now he's talkin' smoke generators!!! Woot!! Way to go Gerry!

No further incidents.

The 36R class freesail fleet took to the Lake in the afternoon in points racing and a good time was had by all!

Working on the photographs.... Two weeks and counting 'til Wooden Boats on Parade!!!
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 03:13 AM
Age quod agis
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Craig,

I see that you say there was yet another incident of an out of control fast gas powered boat. I have to say you guys have a critical situation brewing with these fast boats. If that boat jumped the curb and was flipping through the bushes as you say, it could just as easily been flipping through a crowd of spectators, or even someone simply taking a stroll by the lake with their dog or kids or both.

It seems like it is only a matter of time before someone gets injured by one of these fast boats and when that happens I am sure that will be the end of any and all rc boats on the lake. Some of these boats are very fast at over 70 mph which is most definitely well above the posted 15 mph limit and definitely too fast for Spreckels Lake. I do not understand why the 15 mph limit is not being enforced by the Police Officers that walk around in the park.

Good luck with this mess as I have a feeling you guys are going to need it.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 03:31 AM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Joined Sep 2010
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Originally Posted by SD RC Boater View Post

Some of these boats are very fast at over 70 mph which is most definitely well above the posted 15 mph limit and definitely too fast for Spreckels Lake. I do not understand why the 15 mph limit is not being enforced by the Police Officers that walk around in the park.

Good luck with this mess as I have a feeling you guys are going to need it.
Thats cause these are still seen as "toys" and the officers have other problems to deal with. Like vehicle robberies and sexual assaults. So, unless someone actually calls it in while someone is endangering the public's safety, and assuming the operator of the model is still there when the officers arrive, then there is no way for there to be any enforcement.

oh yea! and since "summer" has past, SFPD presence will be lower as well since there is a smaller crowd of visitors in Golden Gate Park. during summer, we occasionally saw a police bicyclist or motorcyclist hang out for 10 minutes or so.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 09:12 AM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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@ SD RC Boater....

(This is personal opinion and is not a statement of SFMYC opinion/position)

An incident where someone is hurt is what worries all responsible hobbists, but I don't have enough facts to really comment on the most recent incident 'on the record' as I have previous. I didn't see who was driving, I wasn't able to follow up and find out whether it was a radio issue (though I do hear that was what is claimed - third hand hear-say) or what. I am just not comfortable commenting "on the record" except as to what I did see for myself.

There have been accidents in the past where bystanders or participants (boat drivers) were struck and injured at Spreckels. We are still here and hopefully, will continue to be.

And yes, enforcement is a multi-faceted issue as Kevin <MrLego> points out above since Spreckels Lake is open to anyone with a model and law enforcement in the City is stretched thin, though some of the Irregulars do say that when persuasion and 'social pressure' have failed, a few times when the horse patrols came by and there were speeders on the Lake, quiet words were exchanged and speed dropped. Also, there are rumors to the effect that there may apparently be a jurisdictional issue between Rec & Parks' Ranger force and the police department, but I have no direct knowledge of this. What I do know, the Club itself and 'the Irregulars" can do no more than use persuasion regarding compliance with the signs or Club rules.

Approaching the issue as an ex-Quality Assurance (QA) lead and tech though I look on this differently, though not callously, you might short hand it to ‘Man proposes; God/Allah Disposes.’*1 As man and our constructs are not perfect, whatever our efforts, accidents will happen. (Or more crudely from the digeratis’ point of view on something being ‘foolproof’ –“There are damned smart, crafty, talented and motivated fools out there!”)

The thing is though, the incidents seem to be happening more often than they used to and this is not the golden vision of an older fart looking back at a glorified past. There has been a change in the way the hobby works….

“Back in the day” we went for much longer periods between incidents / accidents even though significantly heavier boats were regularly running at much faster speeds (60 / 70+)*2 on the Lake. I remember the Club going for years without serious incidents (a boat getting away from its skipper and grounding or damaging another boat).

I think there are a number of reasons for this, but without getting into them all here for lack of space, I will just point towards two major issues that I think contribute to the issue; ones we can do something about without seriously affecting our enjoyment of the hobby.

1) The pervasive availability of fast Ready-To-Run (RTR) boats for, what comparatively is, dirt-cheap.
In the past, by the time you worked your way up to a truly fast boat (over 25mph) most participants had built one or two prior models and gained experience in boat handling with them. Now, regardless of experience, you can have boats capable of getting up to 60 mph, ready to go off the shelf, for a few hundred dollars; way too much boat for an inexperienced skipper.

RTR may be great for the retail / manufacturing end of the hobby, stimulating sales and getting people into the hobby much more easily than the old days, they can be hard on the participants and end-users. Education for the hobby’s newcomers would be one cure. Experience involving accidents is too 'expensive' a method in more ways than one.

As the instruction manual says:"This is not a toy" yet many RTRs sure seem to be marketed and sold that way and many apparently see them as toys.
2) The blind faith in the “infallibility” of our gear.
Our gear is not perfect; whether we buy it or build it. For example, I know a lot folks seem to think 2.4ghz circuitry especially is foolproof. I heard it again this week relating to the last two incidents. ‘How could it fail? It was a 2.4!’ That just ain’t so! There are known failure modes in 2.4, but many folks are apparently not aware of them and therefore not engineering their fast boats to compensate for them or implementing failsafe devices to shut their powerplants down, if at all. The RTRs I have seen do not seem planned for signal loss, etc.

In the old days, we expected RFI*3 and radio glitches and planned for it!

Cheap, single antenna 2.4ghz receiver packs from overseas do not seem a good idea for fast boats.

This is an attitude issue, which again can be changed with experience and education.
---------------------------------------------------
*1 An idiomatic translation of a phrase usually associated with Islam and the Qur'an, but possibly from idiomatic translation of a Hindi saying;

मुसाफ़िर: अच्छा, तो आप डॉक्टर बनेंगी? सुनीता: देखते हैं। इन्सान सोचता तो बहुत कुछ है।

Wanderer: Well, then you become a doctor?
Sunita: see. There is a lot a person thinks.

The Latin variant "Homo proponit, sed Deus disponit" cames from Die Imitatione Christi (Of the Imitation of Christ) written in 1495 by Thomas a Kempis

*2 The fastest record speed I remember is from the early 1900’s was a straight -running boat clocked at over 100 mph. I think the I posted the reference earlier somewhere in this thread from a Popular Mechanicx article but I am not sure.

*3 Hopefully we'll never see it, ever, but, for the truly paranoid, 2.4ghz jamming <and here>. This has been discussed on other RC venues...
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 12:47 PM
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San Jose CA
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I use to be a regular at Spreckels Lake a few years ago when I would run my scale electric boats. On Sundays it never was a problem with the fast electrics. If there were any at all on the lake they always showed a lot or respect for the other boaters. I have been planning on coming back to the lake on a regular basis but with all the negative reports about the fast boats I decided not to. I am hoping that in the future the club can get this issue sorted out so that everybody can enjoy the lake.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 01:10 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
craig_c's Avatar
USA, CA, San Francisco
Joined Apr 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikgin View Post
I use to be a regular at Spreckels Lake a few years ago when I would run my scale electric boats. On Sundays it never was a problem with the fast electrics. If there were any at all on the lake they always showed a lot or respect for the other boaters. I have been planning on coming back to the lake on a regular basis but with all the negative reports about the fast boats I decided not to. I am hoping that in the future the club can get this issue sorted out so that everybody can enjoy the lake.
Not a lot has changed - really.

The thing to remember is this, like most things that are talked about, are the things that are out of the ordinary. The proverbial man bites dog so they get commented on. News is new because it is outside the norm - people rarely discuss, 'oh and nothing untoward happened. Everybody had a great time,' except when they get home from the Lake, during officer's reports at a club meeting or in a semi-blogish thread like this.

The awareness of these incidents is higher and there is more discussion at the moment as there has been a run of bad luck/errors/radio failures/possible irresponsibility, etc. at the Lake over the last four weeks and that has pushed the issues to the forefront where they are being chewed over around the council fire so to speak. The last four weekends were, in this case, way out of the ordinary.

Reality is that you probably wouldn't see any difference from when you were running before, it is mainly the same bunch of guys running similar boats and the Lakeside regulars are usually pretty respectful of each other and the Lake. Come on back and have fun!

If you hang out at an investigative news website for all your news - you will need lots of anti-depressants.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 01:36 PM
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United States, CA, Castro Valley
Joined Mar 2012
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Nothing feels worse than being band from your favorite lake by law. This has happened to me and my buddies and it was for noise. After getting tossed out I would have done anything to have not had that happen. It really feels bad trust me.

So what could happen here. Well, it seems simple. The city could make it so that you need a permit to run here. Now ask yourself who would get permits to run. I bet it would be organized clubs. Why, because it would be easyer to shut down the whole club for one bad seed. So keep playing around with these issues and someone else will step in and stop men playing with toy boats. I do not want to find another lake, so please try and get this figured out before we all lose.

Thank you.

Gary
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 01:40 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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We are Gary, believe me, we are. I do not think that there is anyone amongst the various stakeholders and skippers on the Lake who take these issues lightly. Everyone I know on the Lake are trying to get them resolved in a better fashion than they have been in the past (hence the discussion).

Some of the twists to the problems are new, the core issues (speed/noise) are not but hopefully some of the possible solutions will be and hopefully will result in a better and more lasting fixes. One of the changes this time is an effort to get all the stakeholders in the Lake involved in a solution, not just the Club's members.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 07:53 PM
Fast Cal
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Joined Jul 2011
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I will be somewhat of a voice on here for the "Irregulars" us fast gas/electric guys do TRY to police the lake and let people know to watch out for others and to stay in the middle of the lake as much as possible and when pulling out or in to go slow. I am one of the many Irregulars who abide by this unwritten rule so that we may get along. IT is up to the individual to listen to us or not, BUT "WE" are NOT responsible for the "individual's" actions. This is a PUBLIC venue. NO ONE NOT EVEN THE SFMYC "OWNS" this lake. So we need to just get along and as for THOSE individuals who screw up they NEED to take responsibility for their own actions. Unfortunately we have no say when and IF the city gets involved. Once IF that happens I believe both the SFMYC and the public may suffer as well. Meaning the lake will be COMPLETELY shut off to boat traffic. This has been going on for years between the SFMYC and public boaters in general. WE cannot be held accountable for the few that show up that has disregard for public safety and other people's property. WE all ready watch out for ourselves and try to spread word and that is ALL WE can do. IF that one person strays from what we try to enforce let him suffer the consequences. IF the PUBLIC complains to the city then we have no power at all at the lake. IF we try to resolve the issue(s) amongst ourselves it is of noble effort. I have known these guys at the lake for a few years now.......there are a couple we try to tell time and time again to watch out for themselves and others but they tend to ignore us and do their own thing. Those individuals are easy to spot they tend to not stand where we are assigned and run every which way in the lake. As for the runaways incidents NOTHING IS FAILSAFE. Mechanical or electronic failsafes are NOT GUARANTEED to work 100% of the time! Current radio technology or FM WE ARE ALL PRONE to FAILURE it is an electronic device prone to interference and failing in general. Sailboaters AS WELL you cannot "CONTROL" the wind or the direction of the water current. and if you do use a radio YOU ARE ALL PRONE TO ELECTRONIC FAILURE and a stray boat. All EVERYONE at the lake can do is watch and hope we don't run into each other and worse hope we don't hit a human being. THAT BEING said enough of my 2 cents. Anyone else have anything to add?
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 08:01 PM
Age quod agis
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The sailboats and scale boaters are not disregarding the posted speed limit as only the go fast boats are.

It seems simple enough to stop the issue considering the city has already posted the rules for everyone to see.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 09:01 PM
RC Flying;Lego Contraption Guy
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Originally Posted by cvctiger View Post
I will be somewhat of a voice on here for the "Irregulars" us fast gas/electric guys do TRY to police the lake and let people know to watch out for others and to stay in the middle of the lake as much as possible and when pulling out or in to go slow. ................... THAT BEING said enough of my 2 cents. Anyone else have anything to add?
I have something to add, but Im in class and have to give a speech on community public safety soon... ironic isn't it?
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 10:31 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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Addressing apparent misunderstanding of Lake rules / implications of the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD RC Boater View Post
The sailboats and scale boaters are not disregarding the posted speed limit as only the go fast boats are.
The "rules" do NOT apply to all boats.

The rules ONLY APPLY to Nitro and I/C powered model watercraft operating on Spreckels Lake. The speed limit for sail and electrics are, at present, virtually unlimited.

The practical speed limitations on your electric or sail boat are hull design, battery/motor combination or wind speed, ship-handling skills, experience, reflexes and your common sense.

What the rules mean in real and practical translation.
  • 15mph = 22 feet per second = 13.03 knots - (6.71 meters/second = 24.1 kilometers/hour)
Many scale electric boats can come close or exceed 22fps as can ALL the 'fast electric speed boats' except the smaller children's toys. So can a number of the sail boats with a good wind in their sheets as do most 100 yard sprinters by the time they reach high school. Fat boys like me: some what less but nearly there, at least for the first 50 yards or so.
  • 60 decibels at full throttle measured at 50 feet.
60 decibels = normal personal conversation level in a quiet room.

I doubt many gas boats could ever meet this requirement. Especially since, to be officially measured at full throttle at 50 feet, you would have to break the speed limit in almost all cases. I would argue that many electric boats exceed 60db as well, though not as badly as the gas boats. The sound of a car passing you at a distance of 25 feet is about 80 db, the background rumble of any city during the day.

(The commodore would be exceeding 60db at meetings as he projects well to be heard over the heater blower or other background noise, more if he's riled )
Up until sometime in the mid-Ninties, these were internal Club rules that did NOT apply to anyone other than Club members. For some reason, Rec and Parks adopted them along with their previous rules about when and where gas boats could run and put them on a sign, giving them the force of the municipal code. I was not around or a member of the Club at that time so I cannot comment as to how or why this occurred.

If you think through the practical implications of the "rules" for a minute, you can begin to see why the speed and noise restrictions are honored almost exclusively in the breach, especially by many non-member gas-boat drivers.

By the way, three of the last four incidents did NOT INVOLVE gas boats but small fast electrics that, as noted previously, are not covered by the Rec and Park signage.

The original rules, btw, were 25mph and 80 decibels at full throttle measured at 100 feet and, again, never applied to the public, Club members only.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 11:36 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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Originally Posted by MrLego View Post
I have something to add, but Im in class and have to give a speech on community public safety soon... ironic isn't it?
Well you are gaining plenty of practical experience of the issues surrounding a contentious public safety issue. Maybe you can arrange for extra credit by doing a paper on the Lake and its skippers and stakeholders.

As always, looking forward to hearing what you have to say.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 11:59 PM
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I guess no one told the Parks And Rec Dept that electric rc boats hold the world speed record. They probably think that electrics are slow.

Don't get me wrong guys. I am all for the fast boats to run as well, but I am a huge proponent of following the posted safety rules. With all of the pedestrian traffic around the shore of Spreckles one can clearly see why the City posted the speed limit in the name of safety. It seems that Spreckles is not a good choice for fast boats.
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