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Old Jun 30, 2012, 09:18 AM
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Ice 50 Stick Programming

I need some dirrection with stick progrmming my new Ice 50.
Following the dirrections contained in the package...everything connected...TX "on"...ESC unpowerd...TX stick to max throttle...then connect the battery. I am not getting any tones from the ESC as I should, everything just blinks and stares back at me continuing to blink, should the TX and RX go through the binding process? Throttle end points are set to 0 and 100 percent and are indicated as such on the display of my Devo 6.
What am I doing wrong, told you we (A&P's) weren't any good with avionics.
I'll be getting the programing card latter but for now just wanted to up the current to the helicopter setting.

Thanks,
Viking
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Old Jun 30, 2012, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by A VIKING View Post
Thanks for the instructional videos, they are very well done and helpfull to me for sure. I had quickly gotten to the point of flipping my 120 because I felt pressure to get there fast because everybody seemed to be doing crazy 3D. But I came back to reality in that I am not super smooth at normal flight, I get it done but bounce around like a rabit. So it's a step back to basic flight to really have possitive control at all times, and fly pretty. I am now to the point of doing everything backward and will continue this process before moving into inverted hover. I have resisted the sim way of learning because of my M120 but after viewing the videos, I'll have to break down and purchase one.

Thanks again,
Viking
The sim will help get you through orientation training at the least. Plus It's still awesome to keep my laptop hooked to the big screen with HDMI and fly the sim on rainy days. In Florida, we get quite a few of those this time of year so i get plenty of use out of mine.

As far as bouncing around. Is it just your collective control hand? Or are you just frustrated the heli bobs around some? I actually intentionally pitch up and down a little in flight just to constantly keep checking my orientation. When I'm flying far away I don't always like the helicopter moving so smoothly. I suppose the reason is that I get by watching the heli's behavior more then the color of it's canopy for orientation. Especially at that distance. Though bright colors help lots. But I'm always twitching the helicopter around to check myself. I've had times where unintentional rudder input had me facing 90 degrees the wrong way. Then i start to loose orientation. But pitching up and down often shows me what direction the helicopter is moving and just like that orientation is restored. If it was not for flying in a sim with no range limit. I probably wouldn't be so comfortable flying so far away from myself. In the sim i fly the heli to the next town over and back. The thing becomes a little black dot in the sky. Since you can already fly. A sim can only give you more flight time logged without liability on your wallet. If anything it's great for programming muscle memory!

EDIT:
BUUUUT!! you always have to keep in mind. The way a simulator flies is hardly ever translated over to your specific heli. They are virtual machines set up perfectly. You can set them up to have random fails but it's nothing like reality.
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Old Jun 30, 2012, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
The sim will help get you through orientation training at the least. Plus It's still awesome to keep my laptop hooked to the big screen with HDMI and fly the sim on rainy days. In Florida, we get quite a few of those this time of year so i get plenty of use out of mine.

As far as bouncing around. Is it just your collective control hand? Or are you just frustrated the heli bobs around some? I actually intentionally pitch up and down a little in flight just to constantly keep checking my orientation. When I'm flying far away I don't always like the helicopter moving so smoothly. I suppose the reason is that I get by watching the heli's behavior more then the color of it's canopy for orientation. Especially at that distance. Though bright colors help lots. But I'm always twitching the helicopter around to check myself. I've had times where unintentional rudder input had me facing 90 degrees the wrong way. Then i start to loose orientation. But pitching up and down often shows me what direction the helicopter is moving and just like that orientation is restored. If it was not for flying in a sim with no range limit. I probably wouldn't be so comfortable flying so far away from myself. In the sim i fly the heli to the next town over and back. The thing becomes a little black dot in the sky. Since you can already fly. A sim can only give you more flight time logged without liability on your wallet. If anything it's great for programming muscle memory!

EDIT:
BUUUUT!! you always have to keep in mind. The way a simulator flies is hardly ever translated over to your specific heli. They are virtual machines set up perfectly. You can set them up to have random fails but it's nothing like reality.
I am just being sloppy on the controls, I need to drill precision and smoothness.
With the sim I would hope to train thumb and eye coordination, with my control line stunt flying, my eye saw and my hand did automatically, no thinking, just doing. If I can get to that point with the chopper it will be a grand day!

Viking
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Old Jun 30, 2012, 11:33 PM
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Finally got to the more open field. This align 450mx motor is awesome. I thought i had locktited both side of my swash stabilizer but its seems that i forgot a side , i had a little glitch in the video . I think it was in a roll. Maybe i had some binding, i will lower my trav adj, for aile. Hope everyone had a good flying day.

walkera v450d01 3d new 450mx align motor (6 min 7 sec)
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 06:48 AM
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[
Quote:
QUOTE=thwaitm;22034074]The worst symptom is the almost ground resonance like behaviour when she initialises. Looks like she's flapping her wings to fly!
The o-ring mod would help that.
thwaitm,

UPDATE:
I'll save you from readying the entire post below, I went out and tried it and on my new tight gear and bearing system and I did not get any measurable change in ground vibration from lowering the rotor RPM until mid stick or zero pitch is achived as discribed below...as they say in "Myth Busters" this one is Busted.
I tried, looks like your vibration issue is loose bearing/gear related.

Viking


Food for thought!
I'll do some experimenting with my ship on your ground resonance issue. What I see in full scale is if I get in a helicopter to take a flight and the ship picks up a ground bounce during spool up and it's still there at 100% rotor RPM with full down collective, the auto rotation RPM is probable set to high, which I will confirm in flight, this means on the ground, the blade angle will be to low or in the negative direction and the helicopter will literally try to drill itself into the ground while at 100% rotor RPM, full down collective, and it should be relatively smooth in the cockpit at that point. Pull in a little collective while sitting on the pad and the bounce goes away.
In my case I have a somewhat linear throttle curve in normal but the pitch curve is in it's 3D configuration so on throttle up I do see the ship go through this ground bounce probable caused by what is stated above...to high of a rotor RPM while on the ground before the negative pitch angle has been removed by throttle/collective setting.
Throw in loose servo gears and flight control bearings and it gets worse while on the ground, as I said earlier in another post, if the rotor is loaded up in flight the bearing play won't be as noticeable because they are all in tension or compression from the forces trying to feather the main rotor blades in flight. But relieve that flight loading while sitting on the ground or during let down and the main rotor blades will "hunt" for a flight path because of the loose control bearings and gears and in doing so will cause a vibration.
We won't be able to completely eliminate all vibration during start up as most rotor systems will have some natural resonant vibration they go through during acceleration but we should be able to eliminate those vibrations as stated above.

I'll get to work experimenting and try out some variances in blade angle vs. RPM during start up to establish the smoothest transition with normal switch position. We don't want the helicopter to try and fly as the RPM comes up but we don't want it to drill itself in the ground either.

I'll do the work and let you know if it exists on these little airframes or if I'm just blowing smoke.

Being new to this also means I don't realize that in normal I shouldn't have any negative pitch in the blades, that negative pitch angle belongs in idle up.
You guy's tell me. How do you have your pitch set up in normal, I don't always fly in idle up so the available negative pitch angle I have in normal comes in very handy in the wind.

Viking




I haven't tried inverting the 450 yet. I need to practice with the 120 more before I try but anyway, I don't like the innards of the WK servos and on this bigger bird for peace of mind I need to swap them for the Savox waiting in my parts box.

@HF711, we have similar backgrounds...

I qualified as a Materials Scientist but quickly became involved in IT. I was a CATIA V4 designer, then V4 admin on Solaris, worked on a Helpdesk in Paris and now I support PCS and Infra for customers like Honda and Mazak.

I started out in RC Cars, always wanted a plane but they were too expensive back then plus dirty little things!
I got hooked into helis with a swift coax and then a Wk V100D01.
I have 9 helis, 2 flyable quads, (~4kits) and enjoy the variety of behaviours they have. Each teaching something different.

I like the Electro/Mechanical and now software aspects as well as the basic aero dynamics stuff. Wish my maths was better as well as not being a bit colourblind - I'd have been a pilot. Maybe one day I'll get my private licence...[/QUOTE]
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 09:14 AM
Team WarpSquad
Japan, Tokyo
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Originally Posted by A VIKING View Post
[

thwaitm,

UPDATE:
I'll save you from readying the entire post below, I went out and tried it and on my new tight gear and bearing system and I did not get any measurable change in ground vibration from lowering the rotor RPM until mid stick or zero pitch is achived as discribed below...as they say in "Myth Busters" this one is Busted.
I tried, looks like your vibration issue is loose bearing/gear related.
Thanks!

But as always... I should have been more specific!
I wish I could type as fast as I think and that making a video plus uploading to youtube took less time.

What I meant to say was:
My biggest problem at the moment it a ground vibration type of behaviour - with RPM at ZERO.

Literally, I bind the heli and you know the 3 hops the swash does to say, 'Thanks mate - I'm ready to go!' - well it's at that point (until I turned the gryo right down) she used to flap her little blades and try to hop into the sky - rpm still at zero! I think that's a gear slop (maybe grease would damp that) and just a function of the blade and fuse weights.

I get what you're saying with the disc loaded the slop goes away. It's one of the reasons I'm not so bothered about continuing to use a swash that I pressed back together - because I'm not really using any negative pitch most of the time - certainly not hard pitch pumps & 3D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
You have had those Savox's for awhile now, it's a pretty easy upgrade to install them. The thing is the time factor and chosing what and where to fly when living in a heavily populated area. I bought an Ar-Drone, that thing is nice now they have a v2 and I've been looking at getting one of those.
I have 2 excuses:
1) I bought the newly released WK-09-9s as replacement for my fried FET 09-8 then just as I had them installed everyone found out that they were almost as bad as the ones I’d just replaced. Then someone mentioned the SAVOX worked great so I ordered them thinking of my next crash… unfortunately that arrived before the servos and I had a spare 09-9 (I bought 4) and I’ve only flown it once since then…
2) I have a 3yr old and a 9mo old, a wife who is always making sure I know how hard looking after the kids is and a job that requires I travel or at least spend some nights away almost every week. I want to sit down and do the whole thing properly rather than rush it and there’s near zero opportunity to spend a day in front of the heli until the middle of this month.

Either way, I'm committed to changing the 09-9s for the Savox before the end of August (hopefully end of July). Thanks for your inputs all.

Another thing I've noticed is that the problem with the head wobble that so many of us suffer with this 450 may well be caused by the out of round of the tail main drive or the idler-to belt pulley gear. I can feel if I push the rotor by hand a little resistance at certain points. Maybe it's the main shaft bearings, a bent main shaft(it shouldn't be) or bad bearing somewhere. She's going to get stripped over summer and rebuilt with HF711's instructions close to hand. I'm also kinda tempted to buy the DFC head and all the associated parts - mainly because the follower is just getting right on my t!ts but also just because it looks neat.
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 09:55 AM
They call me plan B
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Joined Mar 2011
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So is the best way to lower my roll ext, in swash mixing.
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 10:22 AM
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United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
Thanks!

But as always... I should have been more specific!
I wish I could type as fast as I think and that making a video plus uploading to youtube took less time.

What I meant to say was:
My biggest problem at the moment it a ground vibration type of behaviour - with RPM at ZERO.

Literally, I bind the heli and you know the 3 hops the swash does to say, 'Thanks mate - I'm ready to go!' - well it's at that point (until I turned the gryo right down) she used to flap her little blades and try to hop into the sky - rpm still at zero! I think that's a gear slop (maybe grease would damp that) and just a function of the blade and fuse weights.

I get what you're saying with the disc loaded the slop goes away. It's one of the reasons I'm not so bothered about continuing to use a swash that I pressed back together - because I'm not really using any negative pitch most of the time - certainly not hard pitch pumps & 3D.

I had this issue as well. After reducing my gyro gains to ZERO then turning them up about 1/4 turn this stopped happening. The heli flew smoother, and more under MY control and the gyro was not acting up and confusing ME and making me fight it as much. The blades no longer hopped around either after binging up, even when both are pulled back along the boom. The problem is the gears just suck and they develop play quite easily. The internal gear shafts (pins) that hold them in place are not very well secured either. They seem to move around, and the hole assembly for the gears attached to the pot all seems too loose. I've also had the motor pinion inside slip down below the gears and just spin free. Popped it back into place and it was fine till it burned up.

I got my new stock servos yesterday to test. They had no play in them but they sucked even worse then my last set. Ironically 2 of the 3 servos already had the wires routed properly inside them. With nice solder joints and everything. I guess walkera is trying to listen and qc better.The heli still flew like crap and the stock ESC was still doing some weird stuff and at one point the motor seemed to loose power but i still had cyclic. Then it picked back up again. It's basically 100+ degrees here outside now, so I'm sure i probably shouldn't even be flying. It really seems to be affecting things on this heli especially. I can't wait for for my Savox servos to arrive. I suppose i shouldn't fly on my repressed swash? That what your saying? I've pressed it back together 3 times after a crash now and it still holds in pumps and the light 3d that i do. I think it might be why my servos didn't ever strip in 6 crashes? Sounds like the new 450 swash screws together though. So that might not last.

Here is some pics from right out of the box of what i found inside the new stock servos i just got. Much better, i was surprised. I went ahead and wrapped the mosfets with some 3m super 33+ electrical tape hoping to add some better contact insulation to prevent shorting. It's high heat resistant so hopefully it won't peel off or burn up from the heat. Because one of my last 09-9 servos shorted out with the wire tucked under the PCB too. I will probably, later, hook them up to my hobbywing ESC before installing the savox and strap the heli down and do pitch pumps. Just to see if they will fry like my last ones did in the air. I put a meter on the RX with stock ESC and it really does not go above 5v on the bench. The hobbywing was at 5.3v on the bench. It's lowest setting is "5.2v" but was pushing 5.3v.


@anyone with a Castle Ice 50:
I'm curious what does the Castle ICE send to the servos? I'm sure it has a few options but does it have a 4.8v option? When i get all 4 savox servos I should be able to switch to a 6v BEC too right?


Also i found a pretty cheap deal for the savox tail servo on Ebay right now. Looks like it ships from NY with a decent ebay feedback. Ebay is always a little risky but i just put in an order for one for myself.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190668883066...84.m1497.l2649
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 11:32 AM
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V450 Nose Venting

Continuing the my effort in keeping temps down under the cowling I decided to ventilate the battery compartment top side with two additional nose scoops.
With the system as it was the temps on the motor and ESC stayed acceptable to me during the higher heat of this weekend but I decided to add these also because I own a Dremel and I love to change things up. I was torn with popping these holes in the canopy because I do like the look of the nose, but ventilation won me over. I would like to change the tail section of the canopy however, as every time I look at it I see "57 Chevy Tail Fins", makes me want to mount 3 bullet tail lights down each side, my scissors is standing by, just haven't figured out the shape yet.
What happens when I crash and distroy this canopy...I still have my Dremel and scissors.
As always IMO and just for fun.

Viking
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A VIKING View Post
Continuing the my effort in keeping temps down under the cowling I decided to ventilate the battery compartment top side with two additional nose scoops.
With the system as it was the temps on the motor and ESC stayed acceptable to me during the higher heat of this weekend but I decided to add these also because I own a Dremel and I love to change things up. I was torn with popping these holes in the canopy because I do like the look of the nose, but ventilation won me over. I would like to change the tail section of the canopy however, as every time I look at it I see "57 Chevy Tail Fins", makes me want to mount 3 bullet tail lights down each side, my scissors is standing by, just haven't figured out the shape yet.
What happens when I crash and distroy this canopy...I still have my Dremel and scissors.
As always IMO and just for fun.

Viking
That actually looks kind of cool. Which bit are you using to cut the round corners? or are you just sanding it into shape?
Surprisingly the 450 canopies last pretty good in a crash. I've only had to use 2 so far and i still use them both. The silver one is cracked and glued and repainted once. They seem even stronger after i CA the cracks and sand them smooth. I use a little bit of CA and glue them back together when they split. I use packing tape inside to keep them from splitting in the first place. I also paint my canopies white or silver. I have Yellow on stand by if it get tired of white. Personally i buy my landing skids and canopies in sets of 4 and prep & paint them all at once.

Of course, i don't have to tell you, this adds some weight to the canopy.
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 02:00 PM
Making Stock Fly Like Modified
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Joined Oct 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A VIKING View Post
Continuing the my effort in keeping temps down under the cowling I decided to ventilate the battery compartment top side with two additional nose scoops.
With the system as it was the temps on the motor and ESC stayed acceptable to me during the higher heat of this weekend but I decided to add these also because I own a Dremel and I love to change things up. I was torn with popping these holes in the canopy because I do like the look of the nose, but ventilation won me over. I would like to change the tail section of the canopy however, as every time I look at it I see "57 Chevy Tail Fins", makes me want to mount 3 bullet tail lights down each side, my scissors is standing by, just haven't figured out the shape yet.
What happens when I crash and distroy this canopy...I still have my Dremel and scissors.
As always IMO and just for fun.

Viking
All thats needed now is a wire cutter down at the bottom of the nose to go with the pilots windows. Nice job, looks factory made. When its really hot or im running 100's flat I'll fly without the canopy sometimes for the best heat dissapation and it really makes a difference as far as temps. Especially with the micros where the canopy adds 4 or 5g in weight.

As far as how to setup the CC50 with the TX, hopefully you got the coupon code for the USB link. I may have an extra code around here if not from when I had bought a few of thier products for the season. The stick method falls short in that you cant change from airplane mode to heli mode so that may be why the throttle seems "weird" it really needs the link to be set properly for fixed endpoints and some other key settings easily. For that use THRO2 port on the 2702V which doesnt have the throttle safety feature built in. Ice wont start up regardless until it sees bottom stick so that "safety" feature isnt needed. I spent hours testing this all out on the 2702V, but havent documented it yet......so if you need more info or find anythng else out let us know.

Here is the setup procedure for stick programming mode with the ICE50 on PDF, this can be done with the throttle cable from the ESC plugged into THRO2 on the 2702V using the TX sticks, youll get all the beeps to know whats going on through the motor so make sure its connected........;

http://www.castlecreations.com/suppo...User_Guide.pdf

The bec runs 5 to 7v @5A peak changes are made in .1v increments, the bec comes set @ 5v default out of the bag, so thats good for stock servos. I set mine on 5.8v to work with the upgraded 6v servos but wouldnt go past 5.8v with the 2702V RX/Gyro.
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 03:05 PM
Making Stock Fly Like Modified
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United States, PA, Philadelphia
Joined Oct 2009
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http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1656159

V450D01 Mods Repairs and Setups Blog is now open for your comments, your mods (even if they contradict with mine ) your pics and your thoughts....load it up guys but please try to keep it lean and mean and on point with just the facts! Namely V50 Mods - Repairs & Setups. The rules are "there aint no rules" anything goes, I dont hit the report button, never have never will.. if that happens it was someone else.. And no post will be deleted........should be interesting

I got a few spots resevered for blades balanceing, Ice 50 setups, and misc.
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
That actually looks kind of cool. Which bit are you using to cut the round corners? or are you just sanding it into shape?
Surprisingly the 450 canopies last pretty good in a crash. I've only had to use 2 so far and i still use them both. The silver one is cracked and glued and repainted once. They seem even stronger after i CA the cracks and sand them smooth. I use a little bit of CA and glue them back together when they split. I use packing tape inside to keep them from splitting in the first place. I also paint my canopies white or silver. I have Yellow on stand by if it get tired of white. Personally i buy my landing skids and canopies in sets of 4 and prep & paint them all at once.

Of course, i don't have to tell you, this adds some weight to the canopy.
Thanks, if I could find some fine plastic mesh to cover the openings from the inside it would look even better and still remain functional...in the cool way.

The openings were cut as follows:
Paper template to get the general look.
Mark the corners of the template on the canopy with a pin.
Use a Dremel with a sharp 1/16" bit and drill the corners using the dimples made with the pin as the guide.
Now be SUPER CAREFUL to avoid injury or damage to the canopy, grip everything firmly to be safe and accurate when working the next steps.
Got your eye protection on? Remember you need both your thumbs to fly the helicopter.
Use that same Dremel and sharp bit but now use the bit as a router starting from the center of what will be the removed section of the opening being careful not to go beyond what would be the finished size.
Use a diamond round file and flat file to finish the proper size and shape.
After I run some 1500 grit Micro Mesh sand paper around the edge to make it perfect but this is not necessary.
I cannot stress how dangerous this is working with a Dremel, please be very careful.

Viking
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heli Biggie View Post
Finally got to the more open field. This align 450mx motor is awesome. I thought i had locktited both side of my swash stabilizer but its seems that i forgot a side , i had a little glitch in the video . I think it was in a roll. Maybe i had some binding, i will lower my trav adj, for aile. Hope everyone had a good flying day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAXZo...e_gdata_player
Gret video and flying Heli Biggie, scared the crap out of me on the one roll though, dropped down below the tree line and I thought it was over.
Keep them coming, I enjoy the show.

Viking
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 04:05 PM
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United States, FL, Palm Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A VIKING View Post
Thanks, if I could find some fine plastic mesh to cover the openings from the inside it would look even better and still remain functional...in the cool way.

The openings were cut as follows:
Paper template to get the general look.
Mark the corners of the template on the canopy with a pin.
Use a Dremel with a sharp 1/16" bit and drill the corners using the dimples made with the pin as the guide.
Now be SUPER CAREFUL to avoid injury or damage to the canopy, grip everything firmly to be safe and accurate when working the next steps.
Got your eye protection on? Remember you need both your thumbs to fly the helicopter.
Use that same Dremel and sharp bit but now use the bit as a router starting from the center of what will be the removed section of the opening being careful not to go beyond what would be the finished size.
Use a diamond round file and flat file to finish the proper size and shape.
After I run some 1500 grit Micro Mesh sand paper around the edge to make it perfect but this is not necessary.
I cannot stress how dangerous this is working with a Dremel, please be very careful.

Viking
Thank you for the little how-to. I appreciate you stressing safety in this public conversation. It is very important. I am very experienced with a Dremel and own a few of them for many years now. Your rounded corners looked excellent for being such thin material. I assumed you used some kind of fine diamond bit to do it. I really have no intention on doing this. MAYBE the scoop on the bottom. But for now i have my ESC mounted on the side under the rotor wash and my motor has it's own cooling fan type deal. It hardly gets warm. I'm hoping once i get my new servos and ESC installed I won't have these problems. I've already crashed my 450 2 times since getting the new servos, uhh... yesterday. Because of what i can only assume is the ESC going into thermal protection and killing the motor. Cyclic remains active but there isn't much you can do when it cuts out on you in the middle of doing 2 flips. I have video for this one actually. If i can bear the shame i might post it up later.
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