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Old Jun 29, 2012, 05:49 PM
Making Stock Fly Like Modified
HeliFlyer711's Avatar
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Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
So, here she is, freshly post tail sleeve mod, sitting on the scales.
603g without battery
784g with
Looking good Th

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
The tail sleeve can't even possibly weigh a gram or 2 right? I'm considering doing mine with small sections of aluminum tubing. Only because I'm assuming that over time the plastic, being cut into small pieces will be susceptible to cracking and becoming brittle over time in the florida heat and moisture. Causing dry rot. Like the one that came on my heli was (see picture). The aluminum bits don't even weigh a gram together i don't think.
Concerning weight, one thing that might help get some usable weight off (20+g's) the V450 is to get a 2220mah/25C Blue Lipo from hobby partz which weighs in at 160g or so. Its the same lipo that can fit in the back of the 2801-Pro and be used as a TX battery for it. Most of the extra weight is from the ESC or Lipo if upgraded. Wasnt really about weight but more for looks, that thick plastic rod just looked heavy duty. Went by the simple design of the Trex-450 Pro which uses the same rod and 2 small pinhole guides, held on with a small piece of cut tie wrap using a friction fit.
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Old Jun 29, 2012, 06:13 PM
Team WarpSquad
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Yep, removing the plastic sheath is about looks mainly. Mine looked as if it was twisted apart or chewed by my 9mo old.

I could equally have said 'Sitting on the scales post CA'ing the boom struts.'.
HF711 and I had been discussing her weight and I had done a half job!
That post was to correct it and plot another point on our 'fat lady' or 'skinny model' scale...

The stock LiPo is pretty puffed now actually. I might run it and see how much charge it holds... Maybe getting close to salt bucket time...
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Old Jun 29, 2012, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
The tail sleeve can't even possibly weigh a gram or 2 right? I'm considering doing mine with small sections of aluminum tubing. Only because I'm assuming that over time the plastic, being cut into small pieces will be susceptible to cracking and becoming brittle over time in the florida heat and moisture. Causing dry rot. Like the one that came on my heli was (see picture). The aluminum bits don't even weigh a gram together i don't think.
Integrity,
The plastic tube weighs in at 1 gram. Consider how many small sections can be made from the tube if cut up and if they did rot how long it would take to use all of the extras. Aluminum tubing would be forever but it might wear the the rod or the rod wear the aluminum tubeing, might even squeek As always IMO.

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Old Jun 29, 2012, 06:57 PM
Team WarpSquad
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Originally Posted by A VIKING View Post
Consider how many small sections can be made from the tube if cut up and if they did rot how long it would take to use all of the extras.
Yep, I think I'll be worrying about availability of other parts before caring about that tube!

While I was playing about last night I noticed how slack those WK-09-9 servos are. I think I get about 2 degrees of pitch in servo gear play alone! It can't help the gryo keep her under control.
Next task, swap stock for Savox then take a look at my motor and it's bearings.
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Old Jun 29, 2012, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
Yep, I think I'll be worrying about availability of other parts before caring about that tube!

While I was playing about last night I noticed how slack those WK-09-9 servos are. I think I get about 2 degrees of pitch in servo gear play alone! It can't help the gryo keep her under control.
Next task, swap stock for Savox then take a look at my motor and it's bearings.
Warn bearings and gears is never a good thing, usually the play that exsists in flight controls dosn't become noticeable until the rotor unloads. In normal flight the rotor blades are being acted upon by the aerodynamic forces which constantly try to feather the blade to flat pitch and in doing so will push all the slop out of the bearings making them tight. Once the rotor is unloaded as in a let down or passing from possitive to negitive during 3D flight the bearing or servo gear play will be felt in the airframe. What I don't know is when the unloading will occur in these smaller airframes and when the gyro may see the sudden pitch movement. Interresting.

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Old Jun 29, 2012, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
Looking good Th



Concerning weight, one thing that might help get some usable weight off (20+g's) the V450 is to get a 2220mah/25C Blue Lipo from hobby partz which weighs in at 160g or so. Its the same lipo that can fit in the back of the 2801-Pro and be used as a TX battery for it. Most of the extra weight is from the ESC or Lipo if upgraded. Wasnt really about weight but more for looks, that thick plastic rod just looked heavy duty. Went by the simple design of the Trex-450 Pro which uses the same rod and 2 small pinhole guides, held on with a small piece of cut tie wrap using a friction fit.
Man, how is it so light? I have a Turnigy 2.2Ah 20C pack and it weighs in at 190g. Are blue lipos rated accurately? This thing is bigger than the stock pack by a little bit at 2200 mAh. I hope those blue lipo don't have "Japanese technology" like the storm batteries. lol.

In all seriousness though. Thats pretty light. If they hold up and put out the juice. I suppose i should order some. 30g is no small amount really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A VIKING View Post
Integrity,
The plastic tube weighs in at 1 gram. Consider how many small sections can be made from the tube if cut up and if they did rot how long it would take to use all of the extras. Aluminum tubing would be forever but it might wear the the rod or the rod wear the aluminum tubeing, might even squeek As always IMO.

Viking
I honestly don't care if the tube stays there. But i just happen to have some aluminum stock laying around to use instead. On the same subject. Do either of you have 2 of the control rod clips off the heli to weigh them? I'm considering just using these:

http://helidirect.com/xtreme-rudder-...ms-p-19236.hdx

However they are listed as "shipping weight" at 15 grams. Seems a bit too heavy for my liking. Though they would look nice. But i don't think all that glitters is gold.
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Old Jun 29, 2012, 07:54 PM
Team WarpSquad
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The worst symptom is the almost ground resonance like behaviour when she initialises. Looks like she's flapping her wings to fly!
The o-ring mod would help that.

I haven't tried inverting the 450 yet. I need to practice with the 120 more before I try but anyway, I don't like the innards of the WK servos and on this bigger bird for peace of mind I need to swap them for the Savox waiting in my parts box.

@HF711, we have similar backgrounds...

I qualified as a Materials Scientist but quickly became involved in IT. I was a CATIA V4 designer, then V4 admin on Solaris, worked on a Helpdesk in Paris and now I support PCS and Infra for customers like Honda and Mazak.

I started out in RC Cars, always wanted a plane but they were too expensive back then plus dirty little things!
I got hooked into helis with a swift coax and then a Wk V100D01.
I have 9 helis, 2 flyable quads, (~4kits) and enjoy the variety of behaviours they have. Each teaching something different.

I like the Electro/Mechanical and now software aspects as well as the basic aero dynamics stuff. Wish my maths was better as well as not being a bit colourblind - I'd have been a pilot. Maybe one day I'll get my private licence...
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Old Jun 29, 2012, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
Man, how is it so light? I have a Turnigy 2.2Ah 20C pack and it weighs in at 190g. Are blue lipos rated accurately? This thing is bigger than the stock pack by a little bit at 2200 mAh. I hope those blue lipo don't have "Japanese technology" like the storm batteries. lol.

In all seriousness though. Thats pretty light. If they hold up and put out the juice. I suppose i should order some. 30g is no small amount really.



I honestly don't care if the tube stays there. But i just happen to have some aluminum stock laying around to use instead. On the same subject. Do either of you have 2 of the control rod clips off the heli to weigh them? I'm considering just using these:

http://helidirect.com/xtreme-rudder-...ms-p-19236.hdx

However they are listed as "shipping weight" at 15 grams. Seems a bit too heavy for my liking. Though they would look nice. But i don't think all that glitters is gold.
I'm all for lighter batteries!
I have not had the clips off for weighing, those aluminum guides are pretty, but I am with you on the weight issue.

Viking
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Old Jun 29, 2012, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
The worst symptom is the almost ground resonance like behaviour when she initialises. Looks like she's flapping her wings to fly!
The o-ring mod would help that.

I haven't tried inverting the 450 yet. I need to practice with the 120 more before I try but anyway, I don't like the innards of the WK servos and on this bigger bird for peace of mind I need to swap them for the Savox waiting in my parts box.
I had to try the stock servos myself and put them through the ringer so i could know first hand. Also to see if it's correctable. My only advise to take up slop would be to add some grease inside. It will help dampen the gears a little. Just don't put too much. Then the O-rings, bleh. I didn't expect mine to last long enough. But that would probably take some slop off the gyro. But i had mine flying smooth even with all that slop. At first i was not aware there were 2 versions of the 09-9 servo. The version 2 is almost identical inside to the hitec servos. But for some reason the walkera came with 2mm, or so, play in them. Right out of the box! I recently ordered another set because they were cheap, they should be here tomorrow or monday. I really just wanted to see if they came brand new with the same slop in them. The Savox should be here some time next week hopefully. But the way I look at it. I crashed the v450 6 times with the stock 09-9 v2 servos and they never stripped. Not even jammed up. They always had slop. So if it got worse, it didn't make it wobble in flight any worse for the crash. So i still give them a 4 out of 10 lol. They do suck but they seem pretty durable.

It was only when i installed the Hobbywing ESC with it's 5.2v BEC that the servos fried them self. I honestly don't understand why because these are boasted by some vendors to be able to be installed in Trex and other 450 size helis also. Needless to say, i will be switching back to my heat sink modified stock ESC when the new WK servos arrive. At least till my Savox arrives.

Anyway You'll be surprised when you do invert this thing. It's like butter compared to a 120. Lots more intimidating when it comes toward you though. So yeah, definitely get your orientations down first. I just got into the 3d with the 450 when the servos finally went poof around their 43rd flight. Was it the ESC, or was it just these servos time to go? I guess I'll never know for sure. But i'm willing to bet they would have been fine with the stock esc for a bunch more flights.

Speaking of the ESC. I think i may have asked this before. But does anyone know what timing to use for the TA 804 motor? It's a 6 pole motor and the Default timing was "15 degrees" on the ESC. There must be a way to figure this out without trial and error?
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Old Jun 30, 2012, 05:07 AM
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I totally respect that, you know i replied to your original post btw, I do a little at a time with the "more important" subjects in answering them on a small tablet that I keep by the TV, this way I dont get into it with the wife always at the computer or in the heli room never giving her attention. But then you edited your post. So I apologize if it seemed a bit harsh. Im not in the business of being a Jagg Off or pissing people off. I'll walk away 1st No harm no foul, internet communication...I try to just stick to facts and leave the opinions alone, this way the lines are clear. But no one is perfect and no man an island unto himself. When someone says they have it all together thats a big red flag for me in general. We all need each other from the guy who just came in to the guy who remembers his first Kraft reed relay transmitter. I've been totally stumped by guys just coming in, in the past. And its amazing how people think, even with very little experience by just using common sense. Something thats not so common these days IMO. The rest goes without saying...

The pic is an EXI 450 with a home made boom pin, as part of the failure it was speculated that the hole drilled and the screw used by the guy that did it was part of the cause, but without metallurgy test we will never know. Regardless of the failure's origin and its modality, the point was that without the boom supports attached, the boom would have been thrown from the heli. Where? now thats a good question. It's a common mod and like was mentioned a function of the TT design, these boom mounts are standard equipment on all modern RC Pod and Boom sport/pro heli designs. The 550 and above size get the factory pin. The trex struts actually hang way further back than the clones typically do, and the support system is much more beefier with aluminum mounts and factory glued rods.

Please dont see Walkera as indicative of the better quality helis available as far as RC, and due to that realize they need to be made even safer because of this mediocre quality.

Real helis dont have tail struts, instead they have trusses built into the booms and its of course are designed very different. Very surprised to hear you say this. The differences are mostly in rotor blade design, structural capability, method of articulation of the rotor head, tail rotor for efficiency - not for power on most, power density, disc loading and energy density. Only highly specialized full scale helicpters can loop and roll, but none can sustain inverted flight for any length of time even to this very day, they are designed for vertical flight and transportation, very different indeed. Full scale fly for hours/rc flies for mins that right there should say a lot.

Ok good enough, thanks for the laughs, now as far as power to weight to post ratio.... Wow It's been 3 years on this particular site with this particular user name and Ive never posted my background in RC to have to give cause. But if it helps you understand where Im coming from, then here goes, one time deal;

A little about me, I come from an EE background but when I got out of school the PC boom (not that boom) for corporate was taking off like a rocket, and I got in close to the beginning of it in 1990 with Windows 3 no less. Meaning Im more of a computer geek these days than an electronics guy and do network design by trade 21 years in. Still know my way around an electron or 2 though.

As far as RC experience, I flew my first control line Cox PT-19 trainer when I was 11, it had a surestart .049 engine in it and it was a real finger buster. A year later, I built my 1st balsa model plane, covered it with the old mans help and have been hooked into RC flight ever since. About 4 years ago I got into helis, sold all the planes and dropped all things without rotary wings, strictly a heliflyer now . I currently have 10's of K invested in this heli hobby and have had over 40 helis cross my bench over these past 4 years, but I live in the city now. A heavily populated one, 11,000 people per sq mi. and so there really is no place to go beside the clubs to comfortably fly anything larger than a 450. Im a member of one in S Jersey and AMA registered, but I dont get there as much as I like, as life would have it. The 450 is a good size for me to throw in the trunk and go behind philly airport and chill or take with on road trips. TGIF Total time in RC wing and rotary wing'd flight 31 years (Big Deal) Lol..... todays stuff is totally different from the days of old, and a guy from 1990 would be totally lost in 2012. Its what your dealing with today, right now in your hands that counts when it comes to RC.

Still learning by being open minded and willing to listen to those who have tread the path before me. -HF711
HF711,

I should never have said that these helicopters are exactly the same as full scale because you're right there they're are not...they're smaller Just pulling your chain hopefully to bring a smile.
You didn't have to and I didn't ask for your back ground to validate your ideas and opionions, as I said you already had my respect with the large number of posts and the tremendous help you have been to all of us who came here for help and share ideas. Glad you did share you background though, I started my model aviation career in the mid sixties with a Li'l Satan and also a Cox PT-19 as my first flying models, got the scares on my fingers to this very day. I bet you had copies of AMA laying around. Can't believe you mentioned that old TX and even back then as a kid I couldn't believe anyony would fly with them. I didn't jump into RC helicopter until my wife bought me one for my birthday last November, up to this point it's been all control line stunt. I became good enough to fly as an expert in contests and hope to bring that skill level to the RC helicopter, don't know if my thumbs are up to it. In practicing the stunt pattern I would fly 2 gallons a fuel every week all year, the only thing that would keep me down is an electrical storm.
Real glad to see we have a couple of you with electrical/avionics types of background in our group, because if any of you know any A&P mechanics like myself you know we are terrible as avionics techs although in the last ten to fifteen years or so we have been forced into it as everything has gone digital.
I'm in north Virginia and have three helicopters in Jersey under my responsibility with Philly being on my route to them, if they have any meets that you attend in your area let me know, if I am in the area, I'd be glad to meet you and that goes for all.
After all those years as a gas control line stunt pilot, my wife is very happy that I now fly electric...she say's I smell better...but I do like the smell of castor in the morning
Your 31 years with the hobby...sorry...that is a big deal.


Viking
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Old Jun 30, 2012, 06:34 AM
Making Stock Fly Like Modified
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United States, PA, Philadelphia
Joined Oct 2009
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
Man, how is it so light? I have a Turnigy 2.2Ah 20C pack and it weighs in at 190g. Are blue lipos rated accurately? This thing is bigger than the stock pack by a little bit at 2200 mAh. I hope those blue lipo don't have "Japanese technology" like the storm batteries. lol.

In all seriousness though. Thats pretty light. If they hold up and put out the juice. I suppose i should order some. 30g is no small amount really.



I honestly don't care if the tube stays there. But i just happen to have some aluminum stock laying around to use instead. On the same subject. Do either of you have 2 of the control rod clips off the heli to weigh them? I'm considering just using these:

http://helidirect.com/xtreme-rudder-...ms-p-19236.hdx

However they are listed as "shipping weight" at 15 grams. Seems a bit too heavy for my liking. Though they would look nice. But i don't think all that glitters is gold.
Here is a pic of the blue lipo 2200/25C w cover removed, in the back of my 2801-Pro, tight fit but it gives a few hours between charges. I charge the lipo in the radio and dont remove it to save the wires. The other pic is the radios AUW, if you measure the weight of the 2801 without the batteries/battery box in it and subtract it from the 847.9g, then you'll know the weight of the 2200 blue lipo +/- a gram or 2. Im pretty sure it was one of the lightest 2200/25c's out there. But I only bought one to try......The fact that the battery made it to the back of the TX should give you an idea of its perfomance, they are probably slightly underrated. Brand new though it was pretty powerful and really couldnt tell a difference between it and the others 25'c's. The weight difference on the heli in the air was noticeable though.
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Old Jun 30, 2012, 07:06 AM
Making Stock Fly Like Modified
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United States, PA, Philadelphia
Joined Oct 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
Yep, I think I'll be worrying about availability of other parts before caring about that tube!

While I was playing about last night I noticed how slack those WK-09-9 servos are. I think I get about 2 degrees of pitch in servo gear play alone! It can't help the gryo keep her under control.
Next task, swap stock for Savox then take a look at my motor and it's bearings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
The worst symptom is the almost ground resonance like behaviour when she initialises. Looks like she's flapping her wings to fly!
The o-ring mod would help that.

I haven't tried inverting the 450 yet. I need to practice with the 120 more before I try but anyway, I don't like the innards of the WK servos and on this bigger bird for peace of mind I need to swap them for the Savox waiting in my parts box.

@HF711, we have similar backgrounds...

I qualified as a Materials Scientist but quickly became involved in IT. I was a CATIA V4 designer, then V4 admin on Solaris, worked on a Helpdesk in Paris and now I support PCS and Infra for customers like Honda and Mazak.

I started out in RC Cars, always wanted a plane but they were too expensive back then plus dirty little things!
I got hooked into helis with a swift coax and then a Wk V100D01.
I have 9 helis, 2 flyable quads, (~4kits) and enjoy the variety of behaviours they have. Each teaching something different.

I like the Electro/Mechanical and now software aspects as well as the basic aero dynamics stuff. Wish my maths was better as well as not being a bit colourblind - I'd have been a pilot. Maybe one day I'll get my private licence...
You have had those Savox's for awhile now, it's a pretty easy upgrade to install them. The thing is the time factor and chosing what and where to fly when living in a heavily populated area. I bought an Ar-Drone, that thing is nice now they have a v2 and I've been looking at getting one of those.

I started out on Sun Spark pizza boxes running UNIx, there was a time back in the 90's that if you could crack a PC/Mac case and actually know what was going on inside one of them.......it was considered being some kind of guru. Now everybody went to tech school for 6 months and got a degree and the market is saturated. The only way to really do well is to specialize.........in everything LOL.

As it effects the hobby, all this stuff is getting more and more reliant on firmware and front end software to run it so along with the electro mechanical, thats a big plus if your into the software ends of things.

3 things needed to be sucessfull in this hobby, the way it was shown to me.
1) basic understanding of electronics
2) basic understanding of physics
3) basic understanding of aerodynamics

And if you grew up playing video games, thats a big plus for the finger dexterity. Always like reading your different POV's on things
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Old Jun 30, 2012, 07:23 AM
Making Stock Fly Like Modified
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Originally Posted by A VIKING View Post
HF711,

I should never have said that these helicopters are exactly the same as full scale because you're right there they're are not...they're smaller Just pulling your chain hopefully to bring a smile.
You didn't have to and I didn't ask for your back ground to validate your ideas and opionions, as I said you already had my respect with the large number of posts and the tremendous help you have been to all of us who came here for help and share ideas. Glad you did share you background though, I started my model aviation career in the mid sixties with a Li'l Satan and also a Cox PT-19 as my first flying models, got the scares on my fingers to this very day. I bet you had copies of AMA laying around. Can't believe you mentioned that old TX and even back then as a kid I couldn't believe anyony would fly with them. I didn't jump into RC helicopter until my wife bought me one for my birthday last November, up to this point it's been all control line stunt. I became good enough to fly as an expert in contests and hope to bring that skill level to the RC helicopter, don't know if my thumbs are up to it. In practicing the stunt pattern I would fly 2 gallons a fuel every week all year, the only thing that would keep me down is an electrical storm.
Real glad to see we have a couple of you with electrical/avionics types of background in our group, because if any of you know any A&P mechanics like myself you know we are terrible as avionics techs although in the last ten to fifteen years or so we have been forced into it as everything has gone digital.
I'm in north Virginia and have three helicopters in Jersey under my responsibility with Philly being on my route to them, if they have any meets that you attend in your area let me know, if I am in the area, I'd be glad to meet you and that goes for all.
After all those years as a gas control line stunt pilot, my wife is very happy that I now fly electric...she say's I smell better...but I do like the smell of castor in the morning
Your 31 years with the hobby...sorry...that is a big deal.


Viking
Will do with the invite that would actually be kind of cool, there are a bunch of guys that ge together in gloucester and camden county every so often. Theres also a guy who does great tutorials on u tube from one of the clubs his channel is here ; http://www.youtube.com/user/zfloop/featured these vids helped me a lot with the transition.

Some of the flying sites ; http://www.chadrg.com/flying-sites/
That .049 surestart was very loud!

Glad to have you here believe me, I like thae challenging questions you bring to the table and thanks for keeping it real. Enjoy your sat afternoon.
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Old Jun 30, 2012, 08:42 AM
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Joined Mar 2012
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Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
Here is a pic of the blue lipo 2200/25C w cover removed, in the back of my 2801-Pro, tight fit but it gives a few hours between charges. I charge the lipo in the radio and dont remove it to save the wires. The other pic is the radios AUW, if you measure the weight of the 2801 without the batteries/battery box in it and subtract it from the 847.9g, then you'll know the weight of the 2200 blue lipo +/- a gram or 2. Im pretty sure it was one of the lightest 2200/25c's out there. But I only bought one to try......The fact that the battery made it to the back of the TX should give you an idea of its perfomance, they are probably slightly underrated. Brand new though it was pretty powerful and really couldnt tell a difference between it and the others 25'c's. The weight difference on the heli in the air was noticeable though.
Oh, lol. You know whats funny. Just this week The guy at my LHS tried to sell me some batteries that looked just like that. They even had a JST discharge plug on them too. As well as a higher gauge discharge leads for your own plug. He swore they would work great for about 20 flights or more, maybe. He only wanted $20 each for them. I guess its not a bad deal. /shrug

Anyone try these new pulse packs? the green ones?

http://helidirect.com/plu35-22503-pu...es-p-26548.hdx
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Old Jun 30, 2012, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
Will do with the invite that would actually be kind of cool, there are a bunch of guys that ge together in gloucester and camden county every so often. Theres also a guy who does great tutorials on u tube from one of the clubs his channel is here ; http://www.youtube.com/user/zfloop/featured these vids helped me a lot with the transition.

Some of the flying sites ; http://www.chadrg.com/flying-sites/
That .049 surestart was very loud!

Glad to have you here believe me, I like thae challenging questions you bring to the table and thanks for keeping it real. Enjoy your sat afternoon.
Thanks for the instructional videos, they are very well done and helpfull to me for sure. I had quickly gotten to the point of flipping my 120 because I felt pressure to get there fast because everybody seemed to be doing crazy 3D. But I came back to reality in that I am not super smooth at normal flight, I get it done but bounce around like a rabit. So it's a step back to basic flight to really have possitive control at all times, and fly pretty. I am now to the point of doing everything backward and will continue this process before moving into inverted hover. I have resisted the sim way of learning because of my M120 but after viewing the videos, I'll have to break down and purchase one.

Thanks again,
Viking
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For Sale Walkera 68 & Walkera 36 Parts bretware Aircraft - Electric - Helis (FS/W) 0 Aug 29, 2009 05:23 PM
Wanted Walkera Lama2 or Walkera 5G6-1 night_life Aircraft - Electric - Helis (FS/W) 2 Aug 27, 2009 04:20 AM