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Old Jun 26, 2012, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
http://stores.servosandstuff.com/-st...Categories.bok

http://stores.servosandstuff.com/StoreFront.bok

Cant vouch for them as far as time to ship, they are in Georgia.

HeliDirect only has one regular JR set left and the Futaba's which would work also on the 2702V, as its actually made for a futaba connector. Electronics/connectors..........look for unassembled servo connectors or google search the same
Thanks! I'll check it out and how could I not think of Google.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by A VIKING View Post
Thanks! I'll check it out and how could I not think of Google.

Heheh, a rhetorical question....I like those

I worked on blade balanceing, blade tracking and CoG' ing the V450 a bit tonight, in between flying the old trusty 4G6. Check out how far up on the battery mount the lipo has to be placed for the heli's skids to level out flat, its almost at its max position rearward. This is a good thing.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 11:58 PM
Team WarpSquad
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What's your AUW HF711 ? My battery is way further forward... I was thinking to do the tail rod control tube mod last night but ran out of time.
Mine is nearly exactly 750g IIRC.
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
What's your AUW HF711 ? My battery is way further forward... I was thinking to do the tail rod control tube mod last night but ran out of time.
Mine is nearly exactly 750g IIRC.
750g AUW is really good and pretty light for this heavy duty 2mm CF split framed 450, my setup is ~824g with a 2250\45C 3S and the stock canopy. Most of that weight comes from the Castle ESC, which weighs in at 66.5g or almost 2x the stock 40A ESC's weight. The BL450M comes in at 76g, which is actually 4g lighter than the stock motor and then the lipo which adds 24g. Thats a total increase of 56g over stock AUW between the ESC & Lipo.

The Ds410's have an aluminum middle casing and metal gears but Im pretty sure that would only amount to a few extra grams. ....theres also 2 Max-pro voltage alarms installed, one on each side that have these really bright blue LED's, so I can see if the heli is side in from a distance when I fly which is usually at dusk or dawn. They also add a few grams. A few grams here, a few grams there and before you know it.........it's a porker..

As far as CoG, shes got a fat A, so in order to counter that even stock, the lippo has to go pretty far forward and that can make the canopy a pain to install. I've read some put putty or weighted clay into the nose of the canopy to get the weigh up in that area. Really though 800g is not unheard of for a 450 considering the extra battery weight. Power and headspeed running at 3600RPM its a handfull and she wants to just go those 1st 3.5 mins. The only thing I can think of is to remove the H-stab CF fin, but other than that theres not much there....

How did yours on go a diet?
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
Heheh, a rhetorical question....I like those

I worked on blade balanceing, blade tracking and CoG' ing the V450 a bit tonight, in between flying the old trusty 4G6. Check out how far up on the battery mount the lipo has to be placed for the heli's skids to level out flat, its almost at its max position rearward. This is a good thing.
I have added the weight of the Ice 50 to the forward deck where it will be positioned and have exactly the same battery position, however in an effort to save weight in an area this helicopter doesn't need it I have removed the tail boom struts, which togeather are only 5 grams, but they do hang far back from the mast giving them a long arm ( I've had them removed sinse I started flying this model). I did the same thing on my M120 for the same reasons. Both helicopter designs are stong enough in their structure and method of tail boom mount that the struts are just not needed IMO. I have discoverd in a crashing with the M120, struts installed or not, if you hit hard enough and at the right angle the boom will be damaged either way so I prefer not to carry the weight. As far as adding rigidity to the boom during hard 3D stunts, I don't buy into that either, the boom and the mounting method are strong and stiff. What I don't know because I have not gotten enough flight time to prove it out is weather the lack of struts will allow any belt loosening over time, but I'm betting it dosen't.
The question I have with the CG as we both have it now is how well will it piroutte? In thinking about this without a great deal of experiance (I don't worry about this in the real helicopter world) I would think that the fuselage would act just as the main rotor blades do when static and in a dynamic state. Anotherwords you can have a pair of blades that are perfectly balanced staticly but spin them on the mast and they can be totally out of balance because of the weight differance in "arm" on the blade. I would think the fuselage would be the same when spun in a piroutte, it may ballance statically but being spun it may wobble and not spin true.
I know you have a lot of flight time, have you noticed this?
( I did do your plastic guide tube mod out of the box also, just makes sense and removes weight where it's not needed)

Viking
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 06:35 AM
They call me plan B
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I truely tested my new v450 yesterday, in my back yard doing some great 3d moves , i am finally doing stunts in my back yard , wow this motor is powerful. And everything is so wobble free. Happy flying all, i will get video next time , its been a long week or 2.
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 06:38 AM
They call me plan B
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Oh ya i will be testing my blue lipo 2650 mah today , its always made the heli scream ,
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
750g AUW is really good and pretty light for this heavy duty 2mm CF split framed 450, my setup is ~824g with a 2250\45C 3S and the stock canopy. Most of that weight comes from the Castle ESC, which weighs in at 66.5g or almost 2x the stock 40A ESC's weight. The BL450M comes in at 76g, which is actually 4g lighter than the stock motor and then the lipo which adds 24g. Thats a total increase of 56g over stock AUW between the ESC & Lipo.

The Ds410's have an aluminum middle casing and metal gears but Im pretty sure that would only amount to a few extra grams. ....theres also 2 Max-pro voltage alarms installed, one on each side that have these really bright blue LED's, so I can see if the heli is side in from a distance when I fly which is usually at dusk or dawn. They also add a few grams. A few grams here, a few grams there and before you know it.........it's a porker..

As far as CoG, shes got a fat A, so in order to counter that even stock, the lippo has to go pretty far forward and that can make the canopy a pain to install. I've read some put putty or weighted clay into the nose of the canopy to get the weigh up in that area. Really though 800g is not unheard of for a 450 considering the extra battery weight. Power and headspeed running at 3600RPM its a handfull and she wants to just go those 1st 3.5 mins. The only thing I can think of is to remove the H-stab CF fin, but other than that theres not much there....

How did yours on go a diet?
Famous words from Ben Rich director of the Lockheed Skunkworks for may years, " Aircraft are like people always overweight, and never have enough tail ".
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by clearprop88 View Post
Famous words from Ben Rich director of the Lockheed Skunkworks for may years, " Aircraft are like people always overweight, and never have enough tail ".
Thats a good one......

The V450's tail seems to be pretty locked in right out of the box and easy to set up. Governor gains set too high though in the ICE/Ice Lite can get the tail a wagging at a high freq., found out a Gov. gain of about 12-15 on the low side keeps it happy along with the right belt tension.

Just an FYI the castle docs for setting up Throttle Endpoints, Autorotation Bailout & Gov. mode (done in that order) settings are located on the 1st post of the V450 MR&S blog......
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1656159.

I will post my data log and settings there once I hit the sweet spot and get things set up the way I like it with the re-build. As a disclaimer;
Obviously keep in mind every heli is different along with flying styles and skill levels, so my exact setup may not work exact for someone else.
But here is what i know; Head speed change rate and Gov gain have to be fine tuned to get the tail locked on the V, along with motor PWM & Timing. With my old setup it lead me on a wild goose chase until I switched back to Fixed endpoints and lost the wag. Theres a ton of settings on the Ice but its all well documented both in the actual Castle link program and from info on the net. Oh, and the latest FW v4.01 is getting great reviews as far as Gov mode...now if they can just keep the HV160's and 200's from catching on fire, all would be well. What a shame how many have been reported to smoke up, the good thing is the regular 50A's are safe, reliable and thankfully dont have this problem (for the most part).
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 05:39 PM
Genius CP, V450D01, CB180Z
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Canada, BC, Nelson
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Hi Guys,

I have been amazed how much help a guy can get on here. I'm not sure if anyone can help with this but I thought I'd try.

I had a 2702 recieved go bad on me. It worked in every way but, the tail servo gyro hold part does not work at all. Long story short, I replaced it and my V450D01 is happy again. Those little gyro recievers are $$$!

So, I have another clone 450 heli that I wanted to use this old reciever on and use an external headlock gyro with it to fill in for the part that doesnt work. I thought that there might be some way to make this work. I can control the tail servo when its connected directly to the reciever and it works (without gyro functions) but when I add my external gyro (I have tried 2 different types), it dosent do a thing. I was hoping there was a way in the 2801 to switch off the internal tail gyro so that you can use an external one.

Had anyone tried to use an external gyro for tail with a 2801 pro and a 2702V?
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 06:36 PM
Team WarpSquad
Japan, Tokyo
Joined Jun 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
750g AUW is really good and pretty light for this heavy duty 2mm CF split framed 450, <snip>

How did yours on go a diet?
I put her on the scales again - turns out with the 45A ESC, MG servos and 3 LEDs and maybe a slightly heavier LiPo than stock she's 790g (I think 610g without the LiPo - sorry - I was not paying enough attention at that point!)
My canopy has gained weight with the plastidip paint but the blades I'm using (RCX from MyRCMart) are lighter than stock. I don't have a LiPo alarm installed, I just use a timer.
Stock motor still in there, though the bearings sound a bit clunky - I might need to strip her down next month while the wife and kids are away...
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 09:16 PM
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Ice 50 Install

Guess who
I'll finish the wiring tomorrow, fits perfect. that's what you see when looking down the intake, the cooling fan sits just behind.
Came in 30 grams heavier than stock, it's all Ice 50.

Viking
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Old Jun 28, 2012, 07:22 AM
They call me plan B
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Sweet install
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Old Jun 28, 2012, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by A VIKING View Post
I have added the weight of the Ice 50 to the forward deck where it will be positioned and have exactly the same battery position, however in an effort to save weight in an area this helicopter doesn't need it I have removed the tail boom struts, which togeather are only 5 grams, but they do hang far back from the mast giving them a long arm ( I've had them removed sinse I started flying this model). I did the same thing on my M120 for the same reasons. Both helicopter designs are stong enough in their structure and method of tail boom mount that the struts are just not needed IMO. I have discoverd in a crashing with the M120, struts installed or not, if you hit hard enough and at the right angle the boom will be damaged either way so I prefer not to carry the weight. As far as adding rigidity to the boom during hard 3D stunts, I don't buy into that either, the boom and the mounting method are strong and stiff. What I don't know because I have not gotten enough flight time to prove it out is weather the lack of struts will allow any belt loosening over time, but I'm betting it dosen't.
The question I have with the CG as we both have it now is how well will it piroutte? In thinking about this without a great deal of experiance (I don't worry about this in the real helicopter world) I would think that the fuselage would act just as the main rotor blades do when static and in a dynamic state. Anotherwords you can have a pair of blades that are perfectly balanced staticly but spin them on the mast and they can be totally out of balance because of the weight differance in "arm" on the blade. I would think the fuselage would be the same when spun in a piroutte, it may ballance statically but being spun it may wobble and not spin true.
I know you have a lot of flight time, have you noticed this?
( I did do your plastic guide tube mod out of the box also, just makes sense and removes weight where it's not needed)

Viking
Now these are some great subjects to talk about, glad you made it to this thread Vike.... ;

The stock 2200/25C lipo that comes with the V450 is ~183g, the 2250/45C thatís mounted in the pic I posted above is 207g. Since I have several lipo's with different C ratings and Mah's, they all center up differently on the mount depending on weight. These 2250's being the heaviest, they mount up the farthest. Usually I buy lipos in pairs so if I get one marked for best CG position, the matching other fits the same. Just wondering since I donít think the weight of the fan was posted, if thatís where the balance of the weight is, or maybe you are using a different lipo than stock. Come to think of it, that extra 5g on a fulcrum from the tail struts could be it. Because 5g at the back would probably multiply by the time it hit the front....Now it makes sense LOL

Speaking of knightheads/tail struts, you know Iím glad you bring this subject up. There was a guy on this thread last year who was strictly a scale flyer, who loved to do smooth FFF passes. It looked just like a real heli in some of the vids he posted up, using these really nice painted fiberglass fuselages from RC Aerodyne.
Now in order to get the V450, which is a Pod and Boom design, into these beautiful scale bodies (Fuse's), he would have to remove the tail struts. The thing is, at that point the frame was mechanically connected to the fuse and the rear section is usually a reinforced one piece unit with a magnetic front for access to the battery mount. So the tail had some extra support from the external fuse be it carbon or glass fiber. These scale fuselages, the good ones, add about 300-350g to the frame, so thatís some serious extra work for the electronics for sure.

Hereís the deal, with a 450-Pro Torque Tube Itís a known fact that if you donít pin the boom, even on a 450 size, itís possible you can throw the boom...... tail struts or not. Go bigger into the 500, 550, 600 etc size and it becomes even more of a possibility. This is why Align designs the boom block with a pin/screw on the side of the block for those helis. But thatís torque tube and the V450 is a belt drive tail. So whatís the purpose of these things for that application.....

Well for one, gawd forbid if one of those 2 cheap Chinese steel screws in the boom block snap because of an over torque vibration situation, whatís left to hold the boom in the frame? Stock out of the box, the knight heads on the V450 are only press fit to the carbon rods so they are basically useless anyway, like tuning forks, strumming along... Speaking of tuning forks what about harmonics, at low RPMs....The heli can actually shake itself to pieces given the right circumstances and the struts absorb some of that by changing the physical mass and frequency of the tail as the heli is ramped up past them. Thereís also the tail boom possibly staying connected to the helo in a crash, or at least dampening it, instead of whizzing by someone head .
Looking at the design of the V450's split frame, the boom goes into the smaller top sub- frame via the boom block. Which is then mechanically connected to the larger lower frame by aluminum standoffs. The struts add structural integrity to the lower frame with this additional mechanical connection from the boom, as the struts are directly connected from the boom to the lower frame/bottom plate with those long screws. And really without the boom supports, the only thing between the boom and the free air are 2 screws and a belt.

I think youíre looking at it from a.... "Its 2 pieces of 3mm carbon rod with 4 screws" POV. But actually when itís all screwed down tightly, Aluminum tips CA'd on and a boom brace added between them, the tail struts become mechanically rock solid and they definitely help with the tail and overall frames rigidity.

I'm sure youíve watched some of the more extreme 3D videos where guys are doing Piro Flips, Chaos, Tic Toc's and Rainbows, these are some of the most taxing maneuvers that can be done on an RC Heli as far as for the tail (and really the whole frame). What about bounce back, going into the gyros from hard stops, whereís the tension absorption even if itís static....... Glad you said this was your opinion because I bet some of the hard hitters on this forum would want some facts to back stuff like this up. Now if youíre just hovering in the yard then sure, check screws often and fly without them. But personally, I hesitate to post things like this on a beginner thread, because in all seriousness these things can kill someone. Not at all like a 120 size micro, and I know you working with full size birds can understand this,,,, Believe me there are a lot of risky things I do with these birds, and I donít post about it here. Donít want to give anyone any ideas....LOL

Now, surely I donít want to try to sell you into to putting them back on Lol I know your mind is made up, but I will say that the guys who do sell these things, meaning every single major manufacturer, up grader and 3rd party integrator, sells a Pod and Boom RC Helicopter with tail struts installed. And I'd venture to say if you started a poll thread that 98% of the guys that buy them install them/keep them installed and feel more comfortable with them installed.

As far as Piro Compensation, the 2702V has it built in although its hardcoded into the Firmware and not adjustable. This can be tested by spinning the heli clockwise around its axis and watching the swash plate, as it should tilt slightly. As far as the blade CG to the heli CG comparison, Iím not sure I follow you. Thereís 3 ways a blade can be balanced, Static, Dynamic and CG. Static is where the blade weight is even on both sides, dynamic is where it balances connected to the other blade, and the Cog of the blade if either forward or aft both chord wise and lengthwise of the blade (the center of the X ), depending if itís a specific Flybarless or Fly bar Blade thereís also another type of CoG, whether the blade favors tracking leading or trailing edge. Typically Flybarless blades are a little heavier than Fly bar blades to accentuate the gyroscopic effect and give the sensors a more accurate response in flight. Once a set of quality blades are balanced they should swing true. Same for the bird, if the heli is balanced for the correct Center of Gravity it will fly without needing extra correction or drifting and should piro and track correctly through the air in all maneuvers and straight in FFF.

Iím glad you like the mod for the tail control rod sleeve, I never liked the way that thing looked on the V, one thing I noticed since doing the mod is that the tail servo likes it better if you slightly angle one of the mounts so there is a tiny bit of friction induced onto the rod and itís not flapping around in the mount loosely. Other than that itís been working good, at least on the few test hops Iíve done so far. Still working on configuring the gyro gains for Gov mode and the rest of the settings. But I like to take my time with this stuff, no rush for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heli Biggie View Post
Oh ya i will be testing my blue lipo 2650 mah today , its always made the heli scream ,
I didnít think a 2650 could fit under the V's canopy, must be a tight one. Glad your flying and enjoying the V450 again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradheli1 View Post
Hi Guys,

I have been amazed how much help a guy can get on here. I'm not sure if anyone can help with this but I thought I'd try.

I had a 2702 recieved go bad on me. It worked in every way but, the tail servo gyro hold part does not work at all. Long story short, I replaced it and my V450D01 is happy again. Those little gyro recievers are $$$!

So, I have another clone 450 heli that I wanted to use this old reciever on and use an external headlock gyro with it to fill in for the part that doesnt work. I thought that there might be some way to make this work. I can control the tail servo when its connected directly to the reciever and it works (without gyro functions) but when I add my external gyro (I have tried 2 different types), it dosent do a thing. I was hoping there was a way in the 2801 to switch off the internal tail gyro so that you can use an external one.

Had anyone tried to use an external gyro for tail with a 2801 pro and a 2702V?
The only thing I can think of is to use one of the Aux ports on the 2801, but the problem is the 2702V has no way to disable the onboard gyro. Maybe you can research it a little more. Try plugging the HH gyro into an AUX port and route the gear switch to it in the menu, then plug the tail servo into the gyro and see if it will initialize. As long as the tail servo get the signal from the external gyro and the gyro gets power along with the control signal from the radio, it may work. you may only get HH though and no rate mode since there wont be a way to switch it between the 2....It would take some tinkering for sure. All else fails go commando...if you can handle a gyroless tail, that takes some skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
I put her on the scales again - turns out with the 45A ESC, MG servos and 3 LEDs and maybe a slightly heavier LiPo than stock she's 790g (I think 610g without the LiPo - sorry - I was not paying enough attention at that point!)
My canopy has gained weight with the plastidip paint but the blades I'm using (RCX from MyRCMart) are lighter than stock. I don't have a LiPo alarm installed, I just use a timer.
Stock motor still in there, though the bearings sound a bit clunky - I might need to strip her down next month while the wife and kids are away...
Itís a good thing Im a computer guy and can type fast with a spellchecker fixing my chicken scratch... No need to be sorry were all wrong once in awhile. Itís the guys who ask for help all the time and then do what they want anyway instead that I love . But that weight did sound a little light in the loafers for a V450. It's still a few grams under par.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A VIKING View Post
Guess who
I'll finish the wiring tomorrow, fits perfect. that's what you see when looking down the intake, the cooling fan sits just behind.
Came in 30 grams heavier than stock, it's all Ice 50.

Viking
Nice job Viking, sheís looking good with that spoiler there, canít wait to see what you come up with. The wiring must be a little tight but the good thing is Castle uses a high quality 13g silicone wire that bends easy and doesnít scratch or gouge so much. Thinking my extra 25g or so is coming from the larger lipo that I use with this bird. But yes adding the ESC is an automatic 30g or so additional weight. Good luck hope to hear the good reports soon!
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Old Jun 28, 2012, 11:18 AM
Team WarpSquad
Japan, Tokyo
Joined Jun 2011
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Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
Itís a good thing Im a computer guy and can type fast with a spellchecker fixing my chicken scratch... No need to be sorry were all wrong once in awhile. Itís the guys who ask for help all the time and then do what they want anyway instead that I love . But that weight did sound a little light in the loafers for a V450. It's still a few grams under par.
I remember weighing it when I first got it (before flying it even) and it must have been close to 750g 100% stock but it might have been 760 or 770 even.

I think the stock LiPo is the lightest, probably the stock motor is also light compared with the TA/after market items, and I'm sure my blades are light compared to stock (I still have one old one which appears to be intact after that first 'great' crash - don't think I'll fly it though). The only weight I may have added is the paint, 3 LEDs plus wires and the ESC - oh maybe the MG 09-9 servos.

Without changing the frame parts I don't really see a lot of opportunity to make it lighter. CF boom maybe? Stiffer, but maybe not lighter.


-- Picking up another point --
Yes, I prefer to keep those struts in place thanks.
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