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Old May 07, 2012, 07:14 PM
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United States, FL, Palm Coast
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Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
For the TX THHOLD issue, you have to make sure that the minimum throttle in NORM+BOTTOM STICK is the same as THHOLD. If not, the ESC recalibrates it's bottom point and spins up and then you have to jump on your heli and unplug... which isn't much fun with a 450!
User the MONITOR function in the TX to check it - no need to have the heli on at all until you're ready to test and that's best done with: the blades off, motor backed away from the main gear, or motor wires reversed and an un-jammed AR bearing.

The tail servo does twitch in HH, in RATE it should be quiet but do check that the rudder travel limits are setup correctly - that should save it from burning out prematurely in flight.
Okay, so on both my 2801-pro controllers the TH hold moves lower than Norm + bottom stick. How can i move the TH hold throttle position up to the Norm+bottom stick throttle position, or alternatively move the norm+bottom stick down. The throttle curve's first point is already 0%

EDIT

Never mind, i found it in the "GYRHLD" menu. Wow hobbies setup guide said to put it at -15% I don't know why.
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Old May 07, 2012, 07:26 PM
Team WarpSquad
Japan, Tokyo
Joined Jun 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
Now can someone tell my why after hitting throttle hold and turning it off the helicopter will spin up no matter what?
Check in MONITOR mode that your bottom THRO value in THHOLD and in min throttle position are the same. If not, the ESC recalibrates it's bottom point for the lowest value and then when you switch it off... up it spools.

Check in MONITOR first, then check with the heli with all blades removed (main and tail).
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Old May 07, 2012, 07:53 PM
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That sounds dangerous, with spectrum RX's it usually means to rebind the RX to the radio. Since Walkera binds everytime the radio connects to the 2702V (hopefully using fixed ID mode by this time) it sounds like the ESC isnt set properly for Fail Safe mode. Fail safe mode is when the RX loses signal to the TX , the heli's motor should shut down and servos go to neutral points.
From what you posted it sounds like when you shut the radio off the heli starts up. Bad business.

Sounds like the ESC isnt setup properly and needs to be programmed for throttle endpoints top and bottom. This is a known issue with the 2801-Pro and the only fix is to program the esc using spektrum gear or some other radio thats has normal endpoint signals. This is one of the reasons why I went with the Castle Ice 50, because the esc and endpoints can be proegrammed via USB/PC Castle link interface and using the Travel Adjust menu THRO H - L you can get it to 1000ms bottom, 1500ms center and 2000ms high stick. Which is what the servos need to be lined up with the stick and the esc needs to see from the radio to get full power to the motor, and also to shut off.

Anyways thats really the only way to get around it, use travel adjust and experiment.....or you can try going more negative in the throttle hold number. But it still doesnt mean that the endpoints are set properly, although it should still work ok. This is the one bug that the 2801-Pro v2.3 has, the good thing is that the travel adjust works to get rid of swashplate interaction for flybarred helis. And that was the bug for firmware v 2.2 way back when.... Theres always a bug it seems, just some are worst than others. This one causes problems programmimg 3rd party esc's endpoints on a walkera RX.
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Old May 07, 2012, 08:35 PM
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Here are some numbers you can plug in to see if they will work on your 2801/ESC combo, I got lucky in that this one came to me calibrated spot on w/ the V450D01. But Ive had a few other 2801's and some were off a bit in the monitor window for center stick. Dust, loose sticks or pot tolerances cause it Theres also a sequence where you can calibrate the 2801-pro's sticks in a hidden menu via the firmware to get them back on center.(if thats the issue) Its on the RCG forum somewhere I think in the micro section on how to do it.

Under Travel Adjust menu For Thro H=115% L = 109%
Under Gyrohld - Throhold - Thro Hold = -10%
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Old May 07, 2012, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
Check in MONITOR mode that your bottom THRO value in THHOLD and in min throttle position are the same. If not, the ESC recalibrates it's bottom point for the lowest value and then when you switch it off... up it spools.

Check in MONITOR first, then check with the heli with all blades removed (main and tail).
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
That sounds dangerous, with spectrum RX's it usually means to rebind the RX to the radio. Since Walkera binds everytime the radio connects to the 2702V (hopefully using fixed ID mode by this time) it sounds like the ESC isnt set properly for Fail Safe mode. Fail safe mode is when the RX loses signal to the TX , the heli's motor should shut down and servos go to neutral points.
From what you posted it sounds like when you shut the radio off the heli starts up. Bad business.

Sounds like the ESC isnt setup properly and needs to be programmed for throttle endpoints top and bottom. This is a known issue with the 2801-Pro and the only fix is to program the esc using spektrum gear or some other radio thats has normal endpoint signals. This is one of the reasons why I went with the Castle Ice 50, because the esc and endpoints can be proegrammed via USB/PC Castle link interface and using the Travel Adjust menu THRO H - L you can get it to 1000ms bottom, 1500ms center and 2000ms high stick. Which is what the servos need to be lined up with the stick and the esc needs to see from the radio to get full power to the motor, and also to shut off.

Anyways thats really the only way to get around it, use travel adjust and experiment.....or you can try going more negative in the throttle hold number. But it still doesnt mean that the endpoints are set properly, although it should still work ok. This is the one bug that the 2801-Pro v2.3 has, the good thing is that the travel adjust works to get rid of swashplate interaction for flybarred helis. And that was the bug for firmware v 2.2 way back when.... Theres always a bug it seems, just some are worst than others. This one causes problems programmimg 3rd party esc's endpoints on a walkera RX.
Thank you again guys. thwaitm was correct. My throttle hold in the gyrhld menu was set to -15% from the previous user. When i went back though the TX settings i left it this way because this is how i recall the wow hobbies setup guide said to put it. It was wrong. Setting it to 0% fixed the problem completely. With the -15% the ESC was resetting it's end point and normal+bottom stick would always be higher throttle than after hitting TH.
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Old May 07, 2012, 08:44 PM
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I say follow wow hobbies or anyone else that has already tested. For my v120 i had a forum that had perfect settings. With this heli i used wow hobbies sertings. But i think all my heli have the the hold at -15

Back to ur wobble. You are running high head speed and u have both your gyro gain s all the way down????!!,i gotta see this wobble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
Okay, so on both my 2801-pro controllers the TH hold moves lower than Norm + bottom stick. How can i move the TH hold throttle position up to the Norm+bottom stick throttle position, or alternatively move the norm+bottom stick down. The throttle curve's first point is already 0%

EDIT

Never mind, i found it in the "GYRHLD" menu. Wow hobbies setup guide said to put it at -15% I don't know why.
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Old May 07, 2012, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Heli Biggie View Post
I say follow wow hobbies or anyone else that has already tested. For my v120 i had a forum that had perfect settings. With this heli i used wow hobbies sertings. But i think all my heli have the the hold at -15

Back to ur wobble. You are running high head speed and u have both your gyro gain s all the way down????!!,i gotta see this wobble.

Yeah i looked and my 4f200 has a -15% TH too. I don't know why this 450 is any different.

Anyway, the wobble is pretty tame at the moment, i tried to make a new recording today but the work i did on the servo must have calmed it down a lot. The one 09-9 v.1 servo moves very easily compared to the other 2 and has some play in it. in TH if i pitch pump and stop or jolt the pitch around the one servo wobbles around on the swash. It's still doing it but i used silicone grease inside the servo on the gears to dampen them a little. Working for now till the viscosity breaks down. Won't take long. replacements on the way. Couldn't do much test flying today. Rained all day.
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Old May 08, 2012, 05:05 AM
Team WarpSquad
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Joined Jun 2011
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To set the ESC end points using the RX2702V, plug the ESC into THRO2 instead of THRO1 - this channel doesn't have the security feature which doesn't transmit a full throttle stick at bind past the RX.
I set my ESC end points using THRO2 then replugged back to THRO1 for flight (that way I don't recalibrate the ESC by accident).
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Old May 08, 2012, 07:01 AM
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United States, FL, Seminole
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
Yeah, but I'm pretty sure a blade tracking or balancing issue would not show up on 2 sets of blades, one of which definitely did not have this issue previously. The wobble is ONLY when the heli is hovering or if i move side to side or something it might occur when the heli stalls or slows down to turn. If its moving around its stable and fine. Unbalanced blades would have a constant vibe from spool up to idle up. At least in my experience, the vibe from that would be constant. I have done half turns to full turns on each individual pitch linkage separately to see if it helps the tracking at all. To the eye the tracking is already dead on, but i tried anyway. All that did was raise or lower one of the blades out of line with the other. So I'm pretty sure its not the tracking. I could be totally wrong though. I'll be trying new dampeners next and if that does not work I'll probably get a new head assembly anyway just for parts.

I'll shoot a video later if the rain clears up. I'll put on my FPV goggles and hat cam and try and get some zoomed footage of the heli spooling up, hovering, and moving around some. With the fpv goggles on with my hat cam i should be able to follow the heli pretty good, i hope. I need to find a willing camera man lol.
tracking WOULD show up on 2 sets because tracking has to do with the rotor head and not the blades. and its usually most apparent because when your at low head speeds, ie idle and lower, because blade tracking causes not exactly a vibration that is apparent throughout the throttle range, but a lift in-equality between the blades which a low speeds shows up as a wobble because one side of blade set is generating slightly more lift than the other thus forcing that side of the craft higher in the air for the remainder of that blades rotation through that side, then the effect is reversed once the blade rotates to the other side... this is less apparent once you get the head up to speed because the blade spends less time on any given side of the craft to it doesn't have much time to affect the attitude of the craft, and at that head speed lift is just lift even if your flying with only one blade and a counter weight...
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Old May 08, 2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
To set the ESC end points using the RX2702V, plug the ESC into THRO2 instead of THRO1 - this channel doesn't have the security feature which doesn't transmit a full throttle stick at bind past the RX.
I set my ESC end points using THRO2 then replugged back to THRO1 for flight (that way I don't recalibrate the ESC by accident).
Thats a good call T, totally forgot about that one. Did you back the motor off the pinion or anything like that when you did this, and did the ESC beep back at you that it recognized top/bottom throttle stick endpoints from the 2801-pro? Just wondering exactly how you did it in sequence.. The throttle2 port is for nitro/gas engines to connect directly to a throttle servo. The 2702V is the only RX that has this Thro2 feature so maybe there is a fix after all, but only with this RX. All other RX's, especially the micros have the "bug". If you try to connect an ESC like the XP12A, you cant program it unless you get the programming card.

I hear the DEVO radio fixed the endpoint problem, and its just like any other radio now as far as this.
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Old May 08, 2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jhebbel View Post
tracking WOULD show up on 2 sets because tracking has to do with the rotor head and not the blades. and its usually most apparent because when your at low head speeds, ie idle and lower, because blade tracking causes not exactly a vibration that is apparent throughout the throttle range, but a lift in-equality between the blades which a low speeds shows up as a wobble because one side of blade set is generating slightly more lift than the other thus forcing that side of the craft higher in the air for the remainder of that blades rotation through that side, then the effect is reversed once the blade rotates to the other side... this is less apparent once you get the head up to speed because the blade spends less time on any given side of the craft to it doesn't have much time to affect the attitude of the craft, and at that head speed lift is just lift even if your flying with only one blade and a counter weight...
Thank you, i am aware of that also. My point was that i have gone through both sides of pitch making small adjustments. If the tracking could be any better i would have to find a way to make 1/4 turns on the ends of the ball linkages because 1/2 turns throw the blades out of tracking at this point. I check my tracking while strapped down, using a camera that i position at different ranges and angles from the helicopter to check that all visual depth and angles of tracking are checked from each side of the heli. Just to be sure. Though I usually have trouble tuning out low RPM tracking issues, mid to high RPM usually tracks very well. The actual problem ended up being a loose servo with lots of play in it. If I sneeze on the servo arm with the power off it will move. There is no resistance so it wobbles all around and then starts messing with the gyros probably. Its no wonder they had to release a version 2 of the 09-9. So far i have stripped a plastic gear inside one and this one developed play so bad in it the whole heli wobbles about.
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Old May 08, 2012, 05:00 PM
Team WarpSquad
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Joined Jun 2011
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I'm pretty certain I had the blades off. I may have had the motor out or reversed so the AR bearing just lets the main gear spin, but I tend to take blades off whenever fiddling with things like this. It's a 2 minute job which might save a body part or two.
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Old May 08, 2012, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
I'm pretty certain I had the blades off. I may have had the motor out or reversed so the AR bearing just lets the main gear spin, but I tend to take blades off whenever fiddling with things like this. It's a 2 minute job which might save a body part or two.
Dude that is another great idea about the 2 wire reversal on the motor, a lot less work than setting pinion mesh again. You need to keep posting all your secrets and school me to the game.....seriously not even being a smart. These are the type of things that take years to learn and usually discovered by accident or by an accident.
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Old May 08, 2012, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
Thank you, i am aware of that also. My point was that i have gone through both sides of pitch making small adjustments. If the tracking could be any better i would have to find a way to make 1/4 turns on the ends of the ball linkages because 1/2 turns throw the blades out of tracking at this point. I check my tracking while strapped down, using a camera that i position at different ranges and angles from the helicopter to check that all visual depth and angles of tracking are checked from each side of the heli. Just to be sure. Though I usually have trouble tuning out low RPM tracking issues, mid to high RPM usually tracks very well. The actual problem ended up being a loose servo with lots of play in it. If I sneeze on the servo arm with the power off it will move. There is no resistance so it wobbles all around and then starts messing with the gyros probably. Its no wonder they had to release a version 2 of the 09-9. So far i have stripped a plastic gear inside one and this one developed play so bad in it the whole heli wobbles about.
On my V450 I have both the blade grip ball links turned a 1/4 turn each on the ball itself and that gets me true with tracking. The reason why is because I have my swashplate one click below center, and this puts the swash in a position combined with the fine threads of the blade grip links that its just how it works out. The links can only go on one way and use full turns so the 1/4 twist on each side equates to a 1/2 turn. They sell these titanium turnbuckles that are adjustable made by extreme i think, but im not sure they are long enough to reach the long links from the swash to the blade grip on a FBL 450.

Anyways if you move your swash up/down a click or 2 on setup @ 1/2 stick, you will get perfect tracking, since that will make the fine threads on the blade grip links match up at some point.. This is taking into cosideration nothing is bent or twisted in the head and the blades are flat with no bows in them.
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Old May 09, 2012, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
Here are some numbers you can plug in to see if they will work on your 2801/ESC combo, I got lucky in that this one came to me calibrated spot on w/ the V450D01. But Ive had a few other 2801's and some were off a bit in the monitor window for center stick. Dust, loose sticks or pot tolerances cause it Theres also a sequence where you can calibrate the 2801-pro's sticks in a hidden menu via the firmware to get them back on center.(if thats the issue) Its on the RCG forum somewhere I think in the micro section on how to do it.

Under Travel Adjust menu For Thro H=115% L = 109%
Under Gyrohld - Throhold - Thro Hold = -10%
I've been looking for this firmware calibration you mentioned. I can't seem to find it anywhere. My TX is not very far off but some of the sticks sit a tick off center or something like that. It would be nice to be able to recalibrate this thing.

EDIT:

Nevermind. found this http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=295

Probably more trouble than its worth for a slight tick off center. I tried it on my spare 2801 that has no model data on it. It didn't fix my elevator that was 1 click off center. It seems there must be some amount of mechanical adjustment also? I don't even think it's causing a problem but I would think these things should be centered up. My one TX is like 3 clicks off center on the rudder, but i don't get any yaw so i guess it balances out with mechanical helicopter setup and what not.
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Last edited by IntegrityHndywrk; May 10, 2012 at 12:35 AM.
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