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Old Apr 16, 2012, 12:22 AM
Genius CP, V450D01, CB180Z
bradheli1's Avatar
Canada, BC, Nelson
Joined Apr 2012
208 Posts
Hi, great job on the re-write of the V450 manual! Its much clearer. Your version is now what I use. Thanks!

I have had my V450 (WOW version) for about a year and finally had a bad crash and I have had to replace lots of parts. Its all back together now and I'm trying to get it all set up & its not going too well.

I have one really dumb question, on step 4, Main blade pitch setting... the recommended pitch is +/- 10. OK, how is that set? I have a pitch gauge, but do you set the the pitch mechanically? Or are they saying you set that with you pitch curves? I'm sorry for the dumb question but would really appreciate the help.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 02:07 AM
Team WarpSquad
Japan, Tokyo
Joined Jun 2011
2,997 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradheli1 View Post
Hi, great job on the re-write of the V450 manual! Its much clearer. Your version is now what I use. Thanks!

I have had my V450 (WOW version) for about a year and finally had a bad crash and I have had to replace lots of parts. Its all back together now and I'm trying to get it all set up & its not going too well.

I have one really dumb question, on step 4, Main blade pitch setting... the recommended pitch is +/- 10. OK, how is that set? I have a pitch gauge, but do you set the the pitch mechanically? Or are they saying you set that with you pitch curves? I'm sorry for the dumb question but would really appreciate the help.
Hi, well... that's a bit of an essay in fact... but the short version is:

First of all you need to get the cyclic servo arms as level as possible, then get the swashplate as level as possible and in the centre of travel (i.e. it goes up as far as it goes down). Once those two things are done you can connect the links from the swash to the blade grips and it's from these links that you adjust the blade pitch to be 0 deg.
You then know that in your 'neutral' position, your swash has equal travel above as below, your swash is level and hopefully stays almost perfectly level through out the travel, that at the blade grips you have 0 deg, then the same +ve PIT and -ve PIT available.
You then set (I think using SWASHMIX in the TX) the max +ve and -ve PIT to be +/-10 (or 11 if you're expert), you then also check that with MAX and MIN PIT you don't have any binding at MAX/MIN ELEV/AILE and use TRADJ to decrease these if you do.
Once all of that is done, your absolute maximums are set mechanically/electronically and then all you need do is change the PIT curve to set the amount of +ve or -ve pitch available and change your ELEV/AILE dual rate settings until she handles as you want... easy!

I still don't fully get the interaction between SWASHMIX, TRADJ for this heli/TX/RX but since the mixing is done in the TX, not the RX on this machine you might be able to see the effect that changing SWASHMIX from 80, 80, 80 to 60, 60, 60 has. Then trying reducing ELEV TRADJ setting 20 points at SWASHMIX 80 and SWASHMIX 60.
What I think happens is that reducing the SWASHMIX reduces the combined interactions based on the 3 numbers input - so when all 3 servos are acting together, it's these numbers which are used. When you apply ELEV at 100 and then reduce TRADJ to 80 you get less ELEV but it doesn't mess with the combined ELEV servo behaviour when changing the Pitch.

Maybe someone out there who has been setting up helis for longer than me can confirm that.

Glad the guide is helping you too.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 06:31 AM
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Apphoard's Avatar
Joined Mar 2011
462 Posts
I have a V450 I crashed as well and I'm putting back together. For when I get brave enough to try and fly it again. It was my first real Heli besides some air hogs type helis. I have since gotten into micros for almost a year a year and starting to think I am almost ready. The micros are so much cheaper to crash, usually nothing breaks I love it. But you said level the swash and cyclic arms with the links from the swash to the blade grips off ? Because I did this with them on. But have not set the pitch yet.
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Last edited by Apphoard; Apr 16, 2012 at 06:36 AM.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 06:41 AM
Team WarpSquad
Japan, Tokyo
Joined Jun 2011
2,997 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apphoard View Post
I have a V450 I crashed as well and I'm putting back together. For when I get brave enough to try and fly it again. It was my first real Heli besides some air hogs type helis. I have since gotten into micros for almost a year a year and starting to think I am almost ready. The micros are so much cheaper to crash, usually nothing breaks I love it. But you said level the swash and cyclic arms with the links from the swash to the blade grips off ? Because I did this with them on. But have not set the pitch yet.
On or off it doesn't really matter. What is more important is the order to make the mechanical setup and of course the final result.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 12:21 PM
Genius CP, V450D01, CB180Z
bradheli1's Avatar
Canada, BC, Nelson
Joined Apr 2012
208 Posts
Hi and thanks so much for the quick reply! That is the way I have been doing things, but thought something wasn't right.. when I powered it up, I didn't have enough pitch to lift without extreme RPM. I have the swashmix at 70 on all 3 as per the WOW instructions that worked well before my crash. As a trial, I moved the pitch curves to 60, 65, 70, 75, 90 and I got lift earlier. So I figured it was to do with my pitch setup or settings. I'll try this the way you said, from the start and see what my results are.

One other issues is my tail servo. It gets warm and its acting strange. It seems to be hunting or buzzing a bit... always. And it moves slow back to its center position after I move it right or left. Do you have any ideas for me on that?

I really love this heli. I started with a 180Z and loved that and found the V450 not much harder to fly and way more exciting! I had quite the crash... new main shaft, 3 servos, feathering shaft, 2 blades and a new upper control arm... so this thing was in many pieces during the repair. I had flown carefully for almost a year with no problems.... then on new years eve, with a group of friends watching, I got brave..... that's when the trouble started! Thanks so much for the help. Right now its V450D -1... Brad 0.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 12:41 PM
Genius CP, V450D01, CB180Z
bradheli1's Avatar
Canada, BC, Nelson
Joined Apr 2012
208 Posts
Just a bit more info..... I'm using a 2801 PRO.

"You then set (I think using SWASHMIX in the TX) the max +ve and -ve PIT to be +/-10 (or 11 if you're expert), you then also check that with MAX and MIN PIT you don't have any binding at MAX/MIN ELEV/AILE and use TRADJ to decrease these if you do."

In my swashmix, I just get a 2 digit number, that WOW says you set to about 70% or all 3. So, I'm guessing, you use those numbers and then check that at maximum throttle, the pitch (as measured with the pitch gauge) is about +/- 10. There is no place in swashmix to actually set it as +/- 10%.. right?

Sorry for the dumb questions... the clear answers to these questions really helps me from going down the wrong path.

Thanks!!!
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 10:49 PM
Making Stock Fly Like Modified
HeliFlyer711's Avatar
United States, PA, Philadelphia
Joined Oct 2009
2,221 Posts
V450D01 Ice'd

Put the Castle Creations Ice 50 ESC on the V450 this weekend, just finished some testflights and finding the governer mode is sweet on this ESC. Head Speed is locked in at 3100 rpm, even on full punch outs very little if at all head speed fluctuations noticed. Servos/RX/Gyro getting clean amps from the 5A Internal BEC set @ 5.8V. It's like a new heli, as the tail was always locked with the 2702V, now the head speed is locked in with it...........Nice

Here are the specs on this baby......Took and ugly duckling and finally made a respectable heli out of it......LOL Only cost about 350ish! (could of bought a new one)

DS410m's on Cyclic (Aile/Elev servo arms extended with V450's swash balls from an extra swash) **no Frame modification needed to get servo arms 90'd with the swash**
DS520 on the tail @ 8mm sits on the left side of the boom now
CCIce50 ESC
BL450M/14T - Motor
2 Voltage Alarms - Just a light show at this point the CC50, takes the Rpms down nice and easy once a single cell reaches 3.2v. No more over Discharged lipos.
Edge 325's FBL Blades
Align main & AR gears
KBDD Tail Blades
Pulse 2250 45C Lipos

Here's the 1st CC50 Setup for Gov mode etc..
################################################## #####
# Castle Link Data File
# Created: Monday, April 16, 2012
# Do Not Edit This File By Hand
################################################## #####
Hex55: 85
Brake Delay: .6 sec (Delayed) (*)
Brake Ramp: Immediate (*)
Motor Start Power: 59
Direction: Forward (*)
Current Limiting: Insensitive (80A)
Brake Strength: 0
BEC Voltage: 5.8125
Power-On Beep: Disabled
Motor Timing: 0
Data Log Enabled: 255
Vehicle Type: Helicopter
Throttle Type: Governor Mode
Throttle Response: 5
Governor Gain: 15
Initial Spool-Up Rate: 2
Head Speed Change Rate: 5
Auto Rotate Enabled: True
Governor Mode Type: Fixed
Vehicle Setup - Battery Type: LiPo
Vehicle Setup - Number of Cells: 3
Vehicle Setup - Battery Voltage: 11.1000
Vehicle Setup - Gear Ratio: 10.714
Vehicle Setup - Motor Kv: 3500
Vehicle Setup - Motor Number of Poles: 6
Desired Head Speed 1: 2900
Desired Head Speed 2: 3010
Desired Head Speed 3: 3113
Cutoff Voltage: 102
Auto-Lipo Volts/Cell: 3.2 Volts/Cell (*)
PWM Rate: 8 Khz
Sample Frequency: 10 Sample / Sec
Voltage Cutoff Type: Soft Cutoff (*)
Current Cutoff Type: Soft Cutoff (*)
Link Live Enable: Disabled (*)

Thumbs up and highly recommend the CC50 upgrade for the V450

Here's some pics of the setup;
(Dont mind the wireing, its a mess. Just did a lot of test flights before buttoning it all down)
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 10:54 PM
Registered User
Torch8's Avatar
NYC
Joined Aug 2010
2,272 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torch8 View Post
Got tail issue. Heli spining in circles?
- Tail servo horn is at 90 degree and goes back to 90 at rate mode.
- Tail grips and tail blades at zero pitch
( At rate mode tail goes back to center at zero pitch)
( At HH mode tail doesn't go back)

Not sure what to do at this point.
Ok solve the problem, had to go through whole V2702rx setup including Rudder endpoints. Then push POTS settings to on for both 1. Rudder Reverse and 2. Tail set/sw set. I had it on off on both.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 11:08 PM
Team WarpSquad
Japan, Tokyo
Joined Jun 2011
2,997 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradheli1 View Post
Just a bit more info..... I'm using a 2801 PRO.

"You then set (I think using SWASHMIX in the TX) the max +ve and -ve PIT to be +/-10 (or 11 if you're expert), you then also check that with MAX and MIN PIT you don't have any binding at MAX/MIN ELEV/AILE and use TRADJ to decrease these if you do."

In my swashmix, I just get a 2 digit number, that WOW says you set to about 70% or all 3. So, I'm guessing, you use those numbers and then check that at maximum throttle, the pitch (as measured with the pitch gauge) is about +/- 10. There is no place in swashmix to actually set it as +/- 10%.. right?

Sorry for the dumb questions... the clear answers to these questions really helps me from going down the wrong path.

Thanks!!!
OK - so we have the same radio - that helps as well.

Yes, swash mix is just percentages, this is telling how much each servo should travel to make the swash move as a single unit. So 70%/70%/70% should be good. This just controls how far the swash can actually move, which ultimately affects how much pitch range you have. To know how much pitch you are actually getting, you are correct - you need to use the pitch gauge.

If your pitch gauge tells you that you have -12/+12 pitch range then you might try dropping the swash mix to 60%/60%/60% and measure again. If you have -12/+10 then check that you have 0 pitch where you expect it (sometimes worth making a pitch curve in a new model with 0,50,50,50,100 just for setting up).
Adjust your 0 pitch mechanically first and then check the 0 and 100 positions. If you still find that you have a difference between min and max values you can use TRADJ > PIT to reduce the out of range value (in this example the PIT L value would go from 100 to 95 or 90).

The main reason for a difference would be that the servo horns are difficult to get absolutely horizontal and it therefore affects the push/pull travel by a small amount and the levers amplify the difference. Honestly though until you get to be a pro, you don't really care about -10.5/+10 or -9.5/+11 though if you start doing competition 3D I expect to be smooth it needs to be as good as you can get it.

The goal is to set up all the limits mechanically first so that from your pitch curve you can adjust as you like and know that mechanically everything will work and not jam or bind. Once you've set things up mechanically and then tuned the base settings using the SWASHMIX and TRADJ settings you can forget about it until you change something (i.e. crash!). You only then need alter your PIT curve and your THROT curve to go from a tame, beginner friendly V450D01 to a 3D monster. (Of course, in reality, there are the DR & EXPO settings to fiddle with too).

So, the original manual says to setup -11/+11 for expert, but I'd set it up like this anyway and then just use my TX to tame down/spice up as I felt fit.

For the tail servo... yep - it gets hot, it has to work hard. If it's buzzing at it's limits you need to check that you have the extents set correctly in the RX (my manual covers that). Then if it's buzzing in the centre, it might be on it's way out or it might be that the gyro gain is too high and it's trying too hard to centre.
Try setting the GYRO value to something low, like 20 - this is rate mode, where the heading is not kept but the rate of turn is regulated in proportion to the stick input. The servo should centre and stay quietly centred. Ideally, you should be able to get a steady hover like this with no rudder input (move the servo and change the length of the rod to set the tail pitch just enough to counteract hover torque - and it may need to be tuned if you use ST1/2 modes too).

If it's quiet in rate mode (GYRO of 20), then your servo should be OK. Try switching back to heading hold (GYRO of >50) and while on the ground see if it starts to buzz/twitch as you increase from 60. Normally flying with 75 or more should be possible - check for vibrations and RX fixing if not.

It's slowness to re-centre - normally I'd expect it not to recentre at all in HH mode and to be instant in Rate. Check that everything is moving freely in your tail setup (pop the rod and move it by hand) fix any stickiness/friction and then try again.

In rate mode you should be able to flick, as quickly as your stick, between full left & full right rudder and it should be totally proportional. In HH mode you 'll need to tell me your GYRO setting before I can suggest anything more.

Let us know how you get on...

You are making me want to get out and fly - and I won't have a chance for about a month thanks to work and travel!! Grrr!
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 11:18 PM
Team WarpSquad
Japan, Tokyo
Joined Jun 2011
2,997 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliFlyer711 View Post
Put the Castle Creations Ice 50 ESC on the V450 this weekend, just finished some testflights and finding the governer mode is sweet on this ESC. Head Speed is locked in at 3100 rpm, even on full punch outs very little if at all head speed fluctuations noticed. Servos/RX/Gyro getting clean amps from the 5A Internal BEC set @ 5.8V. It's like a new heli, as the tail was always locked with the 2702V, now the head speed is locked in with it...........Nice ....
Nice write up!

Keep an eye on your main shaft and AR bearing in governor mode. I've heard that they can get chewed over (a short amount of) time because of the searching for the perfect head speed.

Now get out there and get some video!!
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 11:36 PM
Genius CP, V450D01, CB180Z
bradheli1's Avatar
Canada, BC, Nelson
Joined Apr 2012
208 Posts
Hi, this is great!

I'm in the middle of doing a more detailed leveling of the bird and I will attempt to get it perfect before try to set it up. I have already made little adjustments to what I thought was a pretty level swash. I also may have found a cranky servo which may be some of my grief. Twice it skipped a little during leveling and I was pretty careful with it. I think it might need to be replaced. These are the metal gear versions so I thought they'd be tough? Oh well, I have some spares to try out.

I am set at 70, 70, 70 and this is giving me about +/- 10. So this seems not too bad.

You have given me a great list of things to work on and reconfirm. I'll let you know .

Thanks!!
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 02:54 AM
IHW Heli Division
IntegrityHndywrk's Avatar
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
7,370 Posts
Hello all, the v450d01 will be joining my fleet this week. I got a used one on ebay for a pretty sweet deal. Its a wowhobbies version MGS-PRO. I am just really getting to understand heli mechanical setup to a intermediate level. I think anyway. My first 3 CP helicopters in order were the v120d02s, 4f200, and v120d05 which i have recently upgraded the head to a v120d02S head and RX.

I guess what i want to know most about this new heli i'll be getting. What are its main problems (considering i have the MGS-PRO with the turbo ace motor) I'm assuming at some point i might want better servos? I also saw a youtube or something where the bushings in the head for the feathering give too much and cause a shimmy after cyclic input or something? Is this a wear issue or just something stupid that i shouldn't worry about? Moving up from a 250 size heli is there anything i should know maintenance wise that is different from a 250 size? My 4f200 is a complex little beast really so looking at the v450 it's looking quite simple in comparison as far as setting pitch and swash. I've never used a swash leveler but i can see where it would be a huge help. Does anyone actually recommend getting one? i usually just get it close and fly with the gyros off, or in adjust mode and then make adjustments accordingly. Moving to a bigger heli i want to make sure its going to be set correctly because i'm worried the additional size and weight might be intimitating at first. So i'd like it to stay as level as possible without having to use adjust mode for set up and risk a tip over. thanks in advance to any replies. All input is valuable at this point as i don't have the heli in my possession yet.
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 03:06 AM
Team WarpSquad
Japan, Tokyo
Joined Jun 2011
2,997 Posts
I think the biggest weak point in this heli are the cyclic servos. The WK-09-9s are MG but you can still strip them, there is some slop/backlash in the gears and the controller boards have a tendency to burn out. The recommendation is to use Savox or Align versions instead (though I still actually have my WK-09-9s in mine as well).
Make sure that the tail belt is in good condition and not over/under tensioned.
Tail servo is still crisp and correctly setup - no binding.

I do think the extra size & weight makes this a much more intimidating heli, be careful with those blades, especially the original ones are very, very strong.

The shimmy in the cyclic could be a badly tuned gyro. Mine got all out of shape just doing the gyro setting confirmation and looked as if it was trying to take off by flapping the blades rather than spinning them!!
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 03:25 AM
Team WarpSquad
Japan, Tokyo
Joined Jun 2011
2,997 Posts
Oh yeah - and get a better ESC as well. The stock one is OK, though some have had them burn out but get one with a switched BEC instead of linear. I have an AeolianMotor 45A ESC and HeliFlyer just went with a very comprehensive Castle Ice 50 with a million options.

AR bearing has a tendency to stick, a bit of lithium grease helps there.
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 06:20 AM
Making Stock Fly Like Modified
HeliFlyer711's Avatar
United States, PA, Philadelphia
Joined Oct 2009
2,221 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
Nice write up!

Keep an eye on your main shaft and AR bearing in governor mode. I've heard that they can get chewed over (a short amount of) time because of the searching for the perfect head speed.

Now get out there and get some video!!
Thanks for the info, I had not heard this myself but will look into it. The gov mode setup is on low gain right now, when i went to medium just trying different settings there was a strange sound from the motor/gear, like it was hunting and the motor timing was off. Its a sound you would never hear normally and hard to describe, so I could imagine running it with too high gov gain could do some damage. But at low gain its pretty remarkable how well it holds the headspeed. I do notice the motor runs hotter now, but the temps come back at about 110*F still within reason. Just have to keep an eye on the bearings, keep them lubed up.

Without gov mode and just throttle endpoints programmed to the ESC from the 2801-Pro, she was giving me ~ 3500rpm in a hover. I have it in one of the data logs with the PWM set to 12khz and medium timing, definately a hot setup and a good way to burn up the Align motor. I changed it to PWM 8khz and low timing for less head speed but more durability on the motor. Maybe a scorpian motor is in the future? just want to see how far I can take this Walk....

I was running the Align BL35X Esc, which has a 6V/2A BEC, 2A is kind of shy for a FBL setup with digital servos, this is the 4th ESC Ive tried on this bird but I think this one is gonna stay for awhile as there is a noticeable difference in flight/power so far. I'll try to shoot some video in the yard this weekend.
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