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Old Jul 25, 2010, 07:40 PM
Artillery! King of Battle!
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Thanks for all the information on both chargers, I learned an incredible amount of information!!!

When the hobby fund gets replenished I will look very hard at the FMA PowerLab 8 charger.

Thanks again
Brian
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Old Jul 25, 2010, 08:15 PM
A man with too many toys
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Looks like the PB8 wins hands down.

Iíll start saving my money.


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Old Jul 25, 2010, 11:29 PM
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Please don't overlook safety when deciding on a charger. People can compare specs and the speed of the charger all day long, but safety is every bit as important, especially when dealing with very high capacity lipo batteries. These things can turn into a bomb very quickly when their is a failure.
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Old Jul 25, 2010, 11:40 PM
Artillery! King of Battle!
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I always try and keep safety in mind when dealing with lipo batteries. I always charge with a balancer and don't charge in my house!

Brian
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
PowerLAB 8 does a CC /CV discharge to storage so that all cells are extremely ckose to 3.85 per cell.

3010B does a CC discharge to storage so cells may not be closely balanced at 3.85 (not a big deal IMO) but seems to be for some.
The 3010B also does CC/CV if you ask for it by setting the "Discharge reduce" % value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
3010B discharges to a 9.9 volts for a 3S using the same 3.3 volts per cell setting. Thus means that thatr some low cells could be signafinately lower. This issue/bug(?) has been reported by several over a rather long period of time and has never really been addressed.
Maybe because other users have denied the existence of the issue?? Anyway it will "save" the low cell based on minimum voltage defined for the chemistry and terminate with an error and not in the usual way.

Regarding the charge speed tests, the balance setting of the 3010B is relevant and nice to know.

Fred
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 05:42 AM
Southern Pride
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3010B will not do a true CC/CV discharge to the best of my knowledge. It can be set to Disc reduce and it will reduce the dsc.rate . I will leave it to others to try and tweak this. The ones who want accurate per cell or m9n. cell PVC are not pleased with the iChargers from may,many posted I have read over a two year period..


Settings for both were as delivered /default . Either / both could be tweaked by the end users and if one plays that game POWERLAB 8 has the most options available but I felt that most would use the default settings.



Quote:
Maybe because other users have denied the existence of the issue?? Anyway it will "save" the low cell based on minimum voltage defined for the chemistry and terminate with an error and not in the usual way.
Not sure of your meaning here. I know that if set to 3.0 per cell that 3010B will allow a single cell to go well below 3.0 perhaps as low as 2.0 or less while the Powerlab 8 will stop the discharge at 3.0 /the per cell set cutoff.

Julez was one of the first to report this issue and by the way was one of the first involved with the iCharger thread and one of the first iCharger supporters

I have stated many time that per cell is not all that important to me. I use a reasonable /safe cut off with LiPolys. I also use quality LiPolys and have no issues with a LVC of 3.3 or 3.5 per cell. Some insist in using 3.0 per cell at low discharge rates and there in lyes the problem.

Note: There have been many request for a one on one comparison of these two chargers and I have tried very hard to post only my finding of how they work / perform not my opinions . I guess I could just refuse to answer any comparison questions but then who does that help.
Many here seem to have a very difficult time understanding that I do not sell LiPolys,chargers,balancer,motors,power supplies,connectors,wire,aircraft etc.etc. I post my finding on my actual usage. If you feel that I am hawking one product / line over another then stop reading my post please.




Charles
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
3010B will not do a true CC/CV discharge to the best of my knowledge. It can be set to Disc reduce and it will reduce the dsc.rate .
I'm not sure how true CC/CV is defined, but I though it was about using a constant current and then reduce it when target voltage was reached, just like the discharge reduce option does. Default is off however.

Fred
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 09:00 AM
Southern Pride
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You are correct however a standard CC / CV ends when CV is 1/10 of the CC rate. Powerlab8 does this by default and it also balances each cell at 3.85. iChargers do not balance at all during discharge no matter if it is to a set point or to normal storage point. This means that any cell can drop below the mean set point. 3.3 per cell is really 9.9 pack voltage for a 3S and nonimal 3.85 per cell is 11.55 for a 3S. Bottom line select LiPoly generic storage on PL8 and set Charge / Discharge rate and cells will be extremely close to 3.85 at the end. Do the same with an iCharger and the cell voltages can be very different even if you use Dischage Reduce.


Charles
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 09:09 AM
Southern Pride
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Some iCharger 208B charge numbers / times

Tese numbers do not really belong in this thread but as many more have an iCharger other than the 3010B I thought some may find them useful.

Went flying this morning as usual and decided to use 208B to charge the Thunder Power Pro Power 00 (Sample) 3S 2250 that I have been testing. Flown in my GP Plane Stik with the Scorpion motor which I have posted details on numerious times.

Fairly hard 4 min. flights with wheels down at 4:30 to 4:45.

All chargers at 20A which is max. for 208B.
1,.846 mAh / 9:09
2,231 mAh / 10:11
2,209 / 10:01

Yes I grossly exceeded 80% on the last two flights as I flew to the point that I could hear power starting to drop during a fast extended climb.

Added: The charger's power source was my pair of 125Ah deep cycles which are now over 3 years old. They were charged Fri. used at a Club 1/2 modified Pylon Race Sat. and today were holding 11.5 volts under a 27A load . I mention this only to point out that 208 has no issues maintaing a 20A (nonimal 240 watts)charge with less than 12V input.

Charles
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
You are correct however a standard CC / CV ends when CV is 1/10 of the CC rate. Powerlab8 does this by default and it also balances each cell at 3.85. iChargers do not balance at all during discharge no matter if it is to a set point or to normal storage point.
You make that sound like (1-0) to Powerlab8, surely you haven't suddenly changed your mind?
From the iCharger thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
But the OP was speaking of discharging to storage.


As kgfly posted there is no logical reason to balance during discharge to storage. There is no logial reason IMO to balance during discharge down to 3.5 volts per cell and there is no logical reason to discharge below this level at any time. Most chargers discharge at low rates and any decent LiPly these days will deliver far in excess of 80% capacity at low rates and it is just not ggood for them balanced or not. I have seen LiPolys as much as 0.22V out of balance when discharged to 3.0 per cell and when charged with no balancing they were less than 0.06 out of balance when charged to 4.1 V per cell. If you balance mismatched cells when they are discharged then the balanced just has to work harder durning the charge.

Charles
Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
If balancing during discharge is added to iChargers then I will be extremely unhappy and will never use them in discharge mode again.

This is a request for a completely useless feacture that just keeps coming around from time to time.
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 10:21 AM
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I think you're missing the point that Charles is presenting differences and letting you, the reader, decide if it is important to you or not. FWIW, I don't think the PL8 ever balances during a discharge.
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 11:17 AM
Southern Pride
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PL8 with Generic LiPoly Storage selected.



I am full aware that I have posted numerous times that discharged Lipolys should not be balanced. Some take everything to seriously and to many ignore the overall picture.

LiPolys cells at 3.85 are not discharged to the point that cells should show any inbalance of any serious degree. I have advised for years that the first thing to do with a new LiPoly is to check the individual cell voltages and not even solder on a connector if they are sustainable different. Is there some reason why PL8 should not return the cells to the nominal as shipped voltages? Early during beta testing the PL8 did a normal CC discharge to storage stopping the discharge at the set per cell voltage. So felt that some users would prefer more closely matched voltage at storage so the CV stage was added. If one does not want to use it then it does not have to be used. As I have posted the PL8 will let the user do most anything and everything they wish as long as it is within reasonable safety perimasters.


You have 25 Presets(memories) and you can modify,create,save as many as you wish to your computer. There is a Libarary containing at ptreset the original 23 User's Presets and two addational ones and blank spaces for 25 more for futhure use as deemed necessary. These most likely will be used by FMA to add custom Fuel Table Presets for newer Lipolys as they are developed.

Perhaps addational screen shots showing the difference in defaul set balancing points will help. Storage and charge / discharge are not one in the same. Discharged below 3.8 there is no balancing and there is no balancing before 3.8 during a charge. Once gain these are user setable within ranges.

Added: I stand corrected the PL8 does not balance at all during discharge however the CC /CV to Storage discharge still obtains cells at 3.85 + / - .01 V or so.


Charles
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveM732 View Post
I think you're missing the point that Charles is presenting differences and letting you, the reader, decide if it is important to you or not.
Maybe, but the info should be correct. Most people consider a function present even if it's not enabled by default.

Fred
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 11:56 AM
Southern Pride
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Fred I stated that I was using the default setting on both the PL8 and the 3010B and I also stated they both could be tweaked by the user. I fail to see your point.\
What info bdid I post which is incorrect?


Also please note that I did not start this one versus the other thread. Many have requested such a thread and I really did not want to get involved with such as some will pick minor differences to death and other will ignore what I feel are major differences.

I sure will be glad in a few weeks or months when there are more of both of these in user's hands and masses can see for themselves the differences and especially when the gloves come off and we can have a good old fashion bar room fight.
.
Charles
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Old Jul 26, 2010, 05:35 PM
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I had the choice. I went with the PL8 because IMHO I believe it is a better product than the 3010B. Your requirements may vary....
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