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Old Jul 25, 2011, 07:21 PM
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alucard0822's Avatar
Pennsylvania
Joined Jun 2010
895 Posts
Don't get me wrong, the Extra is fun, and if you are coming up from PKZ warbirds, it will do all the loops and rolls that you can throw at it, and do it well. "3D" is also one of those popular well known terms that I hate, kindof a "you know it when you see it" class of mostly post stall manuvers. Compared to the rigid definitions and sequences of pattern flying, 3D flying has names and sequences that encompass everything from some simple conventional inverted and upright flight to set up for moves, loops, stalls, spins and snaps from pattern, and then hovering, extended and climbing spins, harriers and post stall rolling that are pretty much the core of what is thought of as 3D, all together, it is freestyle IMO.

The Extra300 is a plane geared twards conventional aerobatics, and pattern flight. The wings are long, and the chord(length of the airfoil) is short at the tips, this mean that it doesn't take a lot of pitch to stall. It is a misconception that stalls are caused by going below a "stall speed", it is whe the wing exceeds a critical angle of attack, or angle of the wing relative to the airflow. at this point, the wing loses lift because the airflow detatches, drag increases, and lift decreases. At slower speeds, the wing needs to increase the angle to get enough lift to overcome the g-load of the wings(1G down if it is flying level). At slower speeds, the airflow can deflect easier, and stays attatched to the wing easier, lower the g-load, like at the top of a loop, and you can have almost no airspeed, but the wing is not stalled being there is little if any wing loading, and it is moving in the direction of the airflow. The Extra's wing shape means that at higher speeds, it stalls easily with little pitch angle needed. For a good example of this, fly, and perform a simpe roll, then do a roll while pulling same side rudder, the plane will roll a LOT faster, this is because one wing is stalling, and the increased drag from the stall snaps the wing around in a blur, do the same with some up elevator, and you get a snap roll. In many cases, you can pull elevator and rudder quickly, and the plane will roll quickly without any aileron input at all. This is where the Extra excells, in snap stalling, it comes at some expense to stability in a harrier or hover, coversely, some "3D" planes with long chords and stubbier wings can't snap stall as easily, and won't snap anywhere near as fast, but excell in harrier and hover stability, each design has it's own personality.

Because there are so many moves and tecniques that encompass 3D/freestyle, each plane with it's attributes and detractions can do some moves better than others, and some worse. When I started, I would find a manuver I wanted to learn, and got a list together. Each move is part of a larger family of moves, and share some type of common skill. Wok within a family of moves, start with the easiest in that family, and work through the more difficult, making notes on what you have trouble with, what you find that works, and what might help to make it easier(like more rudder throw etc..), some like spins may start with a set stick position, so recording them like the old fighting videogame cheat sheets help. Once you are comfortable with a set of moves, try another set or family, remembering to practice a move or two out of the sets you already learned to keep those skills. You will build up enough moves that in a short ammount of time you will be able to figure out what moves, and what families of moves work best with certain models. You can then take a certain plane to the field, fly within that style, and look pretty good doing it. You can also challenge yourself by trying moves outside of a model's attributes(like harriers with the Extra), or find from your notes what you want more of in a plane to plan for mods or other purchases(if you have a lot of "need more rudder", "rolls too slow", you may find a biplane might suit you for example). The more effort and organization you put into your education, and practice, the quicker you will learn moves, and progress, spending time on a sim before going to the field also can help a great deal.

for example, from my notebook under "hover moves", the Extra can do all of these, and they are at the core for a lot of 3D routines

hover, canopy in-
holding right aileron counters motor torque, if it starts to roll left while holding right aileron, bump the throttle. Keep the tail straight down and watch the tail, try to anticipate small tail movements and respond to them quickly, the elevator and rudder sticks push the tail, pulling back pushes the tail away, right rudder pushes it left etc. If it starts to fall, add throttle and climb a couple feet to stabilize the plane and get it back under control, or climb out and come back to try it again.

hover, side in-
with the right wing twards you, right rudder pushes the tail away(up in a canopy-in hover) let wing means left rudder is "up". Up elevator lifts the gear up, down elevator pushes the gear down. If it is starting to get awy, add throttle and roll 1/4 left or right to canopy in.

hover, gear in-
elevator and rudder are reversed, watch the tail and imagine the sticks are pulling the tail twards the elevator and rudder stick movement instead of pushing it away, it pulls that surface twards the stick direction. Keep right aileron, if you get disoriented, add throttle, and left aileron to roll canopy or side in, gain control, then roll around to gear in and try agin.

point torque roll-
basically practice hovering, let off of right aileron, let the plane torque roll to the left, bump right aileron/throttle and hold it to hold that orientation, regain a stable hover for a second or two, center aileron, go to the next orientation, stabilize, and keep doing it for a few turns till you are comfortable in all 4 orientations.

torque roll-
let the plane roll by hovering, then letting off of right aileron, add some right aileron to slow the roll, left aileron to speed it up, correct the hover during each of the 4 points you practiced, and try to anticipate the correct movements before the plane is completely in one of the 4 orientations. Follow the tail around and try to correct the hover at any position throughout the roll. Keep the roll smooth, and as you get comfortable you can push left aileron to speed it up, and keep up faster and faster. On some planes you can roll slowly aggainst the torque, it's less stable.

snap to hover/wall-fly level upright , bump full up elevator and pop additional throttle, the plane rotates striaight up and bleeds off momentum in a short climb, stabilize the hover

waterfall-
hold a hover at 50ft, push both sticks up quickly and back off of right aileron, lower throttle as the plane flips, then stop the tail by bumping the right stick down a little past center and bumping throttle, re-stabilize hover, and see how much it dropped in the manuver. Do it lower and lower till the recovery is close to the ground. With enough rudder, you can do the same with rudder instead of elevator. It will take more altitude as it snaps around slower.

After going through my list of hovering moves, taking a couple months to get comfortable with them, and a lot of EPP and sim practice, I developed a short routine. Take off, level out, snap to hover, do a waterfall, do a couple point torque rolls, another waterfall, then a few torque rolls, climb out while rolling in a vertical. Looks very impressive, but building the skills for each part individually, then putting it together takes relatively little time, and the work in learning each orientation will help with other moves like point and slow rolls when flying at higher speeds. I'm still working on low level waterfalls with the Extra, I still do them about 50' up being it still snaps to the side on some of them, but am getting it to do them lower, and without losing as much altitude. My floatier planes with a wider wing chord do these manuvers easier, but once you get them on one plane, even an EPP foamie, it is only a matter of time beore you can do them on most any plane capable of it, and the Extra can do them, although it is more difficult.
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Old Jul 25, 2011, 09:39 PM
Shut up and fly
papabatman's Avatar
United States, CO, Firestone
Joined Jun 2008
10,379 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by alucard0822 View Post
Don't get me wrong, the Extra is fun, and if you are coming up from PKZ warbirds, it will do all the loops and rolls that you can throw at it, and do it well. "3D" is also one of those popular well known terms that I hate, kindof a "you know it when you see it" class of mostly post stall manuvers. Compared to the rigid definitions and sequences of pattern flying, 3D flying has names and sequences that encompass everything from some simple conventional inverted and upright flight to set up for moves, loops, stalls, spins and snaps from pattern, and then hovering, extended and climbing spins, harriers and post stall rolling that are pretty much the core of what is thought of as 3D, all together, it is freestyle IMO..
yes that is what i was thinking 3d is, also i think that is why all those other planes look alike to me that i think of as 3d. so i guess what i am looking for is a plane that can do more things then a warbird some simple tricks and fun maneuvers. so open to suggestions. still like the way this bird looks
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Old Jul 25, 2011, 09:58 PM
Takeoff=Option Landing=Must
robusp's Avatar
USA, NY, Depew
Joined Jan 2009
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Originally Posted by papabatman View Post
yes that is what i was thinking 3d is, also i think that is why all those other planes look alike to me that i think of as 3d. so i guess what i am looking for is a plane that can do more things then a warbird some simple tricks and fun maneuvers. so open to suggestions. still like the way this bird looks
Get it. Price is right. Fly it more like a pattern plane.
I have it since september and the looks is the main reason.

Rob
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Old Jul 26, 2011, 07:53 PM
Fly Naked !
MARCOELDRAGON's Avatar
Waynesboro VA USA
Joined Dec 2010
1,156 Posts
Alucard you really should write a book, perhaps PZ Extra 300 for Dummies? Or maybe the definitive Extra 300 manual. No sarcasm intended or implied. Thanks for all you info even if not directed toward me.
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Old Jul 26, 2011, 08:59 PM
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Pennsylvania
Joined Jun 2010
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Originally Posted by MARCOELDRAGON View Post
Alucard you really should write a book, perhaps PZ Extra 300 for Dummies? Or maybe the definitive Extra 300 manual. No sarcasm intended or implied. Thanks for all you info even if not directed toward me.
I appreciate that, I really do.

I try all I can to help newer pilots, take them flying as a guest on a buddy box, or for family and friends, I give away my older RTF beginner models. Nobody else in my family flew RC before me, and neither did any of my friends. When I first got into the hobby about 15 years ago, I bought a Multiplex electric hi-wing trainer with aabout a 30" wingspan, culdn't fly it, couldn't get parts, had no resources to help, and after the first and only flight, I plowed it into the street and was out $200. Bought the old Parkzone "ferocious Frankie" P-51, about 3 years later, same story, one flight, and done, got parts, fixed it, and again it was smashed within seconds. I looked into clubs but the ones in the area were filled with angry old folks who looked down on anything electric or smaller than a .40 sized glow plane, they laughed me and my "ready to fly" POS away from the hobby. I didn't touch an RC plane for 5 years, and instead got into competitive pistol shooting. Some people really took me under their wing when I first started out, taught me a lot, and freely gave advice not just for my benefit, but for the benefit of that hobby, and to grow the sport. I still shoot IDPA, got my instructor cert and instruct others, free of charge to pass along the gifts I had recieved.

On a whim about 8 years ago, I stopped by a new hobby shop, the Moose Caboose in Eldersburg, MD back when I lived nearby. The owner GURANTEED I could fly a plane within 10 minutes, and if I couldn't he would refund my money, so I bought a supercub, and we went out back. He took it off, flew it around the neighboring field, trimmed it out, and went over the basics with me, got a buddy box from the shop, and then it was my turn, I actually flew it, and couldn't stop grinning for hours. Every few evenings after work, I stopped on the way home, and flew the plane, getting better and better for the next year. Life happened, I was dating my wife, working long hours, and we were saving for our first house, so while I still flew on occasion, it wasn't that often, bought a Parkzone Corsair though to add to the hangar, and learned 4ch aerobatics. We bought a house in PA, and moved a few years ago, lots of fields, a number of active RC clubs in the area, and after a couple promotions at work, I had plenty of time to get serious about my RC hobby. Read everything I could here and elsewhere, bought books and DVDs, started a journal as I learned moves, built more and more planes, and progressed faster than I could have imagined. Now, I am no pro, I can fly 3D fairly well, and am comfortable with the skills I have built, but I am still learning with every flight, and have been flying a couple times a week year round, for the past couple years. I help introduce new fliers to the hobby, and coach anyone that I think I can help, basically something that I never had, but wish was available to me when I first started out. Amongst my longtime friends in the shooting and gun right community it's recognized that one of the most important things we can do is take someone shooting for the first time, teach them safety, teach them the basics, and do our part to preserve the pasttime for us, and future generations. I try to use that same mentality for my RC hobby too, grow the hobby, and pass it along to anyone that has an interest, it benefits all of us.
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Old Jul 26, 2011, 10:23 PM
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Monument, CO
Joined May 2009
180 Posts
Much appreciated, Alucard. As a fairly new Extra 300 owner, I have been reading your posts with great interest. Makes me realize how much I still have to (get to...) learn to fly this model really well.

Along the lines of passing points of interest to others, I decided to try my hand at painting the pilot figure to match the Extra's colors. The first decision was how to get the figure out. As you can see from the pictures below, I (carefully) cut a square of foam under the pilot with an exacto and pulled the figure out through the bottom (if you stick packing tape to the bottom of the square it helps in removing the figure without damaging the foam square).

Note: the figure is made of a rubbery material that doesn't take well to enamel paint, so (important!) use acrylic if you do this. I know this because I repainted the black portions with Testors enamel and thay are still "tacky" after several days (the orange and silver pilot colors are acrylic, as is the foam square, which all dried just fine). To return the pilot to the cockpit I just epoxied two popsicle sticks to the foam square and then (packing) taped the sticks to the cockpit base. That way I can pull the figure out again or even replace it with a different pilot. Worked slick!
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Old Jul 27, 2011, 07:36 PM
Fly Naked !
MARCOELDRAGON's Avatar
Waynesboro VA USA
Joined Dec 2010
1,156 Posts
Too early to say for sure but I may be getting the hang of landing this beast. I flew 3 batteries today after work and made 7 landings and takeoffs. Results are 5 good little to no bounce, 1 tip over onto nose, and 1 misjudged approach and wind and landed short of pavement in 3 feet tall grass and weeds. No damage, dignity and pride intact. 1st flight spent over half inverted, 2nd did nothing but approaches and actual landings (5 total), 3rd some freestyle aerobatics followed by some low level top speed passes. Altogether a great way to blow off the stress of work and my upcoming marriage.
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Old Jul 28, 2011, 11:23 AM
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rcbrother's Avatar
Amsterdam
Joined Nov 2006
155 Posts
@Marco El Dragon, Could you tell us where you positioned your battery? Also some info how you perfrom your landing would be great. E.g. Throttle setting and usage, speed, elevator usage, etc. etc.
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Old Jul 28, 2011, 03:36 PM
Fly Naked !
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Waynesboro VA USA
Joined Dec 2010
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For the record I am still trying to learn to land this plane consistently. But since you asked here goes. I have 3 different batteries I fly with so far. 1 stock PZ 2200 mAh 25c, 1 E-flite 2100 mAh 20c and a cheap G-Force 2200 mAh 30c. All 3 weigh within 1 ounce of each other so I mount them all the same, which is with the hook and loop strap over the very back of the battery. I tried landing on grass but didn't do very well so all my landings are on pavement (except when I hit the tall grass yesterday). I close the throttle all the way until the Extra is about 10 feet (3 meters) off of the ground, at which point I go to about 20-25% or enough to hear the motor turning under power. Right before it touches down I do a little back elevator and cut the throttle all the way. When it does touch I add more back elevator to try to keep the tail wheel on the ground. I try to let the plane more or less land itself without me forcing it to land.
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 05:51 AM
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Amsterdam
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THX Marco El Dragon, really appreciated!
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 08:02 PM
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shung1's Avatar
Joined Jan 2011
133 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by alucard0822 View Post
Cut the top of the wire gear shorter, pushed it closer together, and welded a peice of the wire I cut out back in. Painted the wheel pants with the closest Orange paint I had. I now have Yak gear that fits the stock Extra300 mounting plate, 3" of clearance with the stock prop when sitting 3pt, about 1.5-2" with the fuse level, 3" wheels raked forward a little ahead of the leading edge, 15" wide wheel track, no more prop dings, and it should work well on grass

Attachment 4165755

Attachment 4165756


looked like this
Attachment 4165806

now looks like this(pictured with the stock gear/2.5" dubro wheels)
Attachment 4165783
Hey mate, would that be the same size landing gear as the carbon z yak from e-flite?
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 08:04 PM
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Joined Jan 2011
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Phoenix Sim

Hey guys,
Any of you using Phoenix RC simulator? what would be the closest model to the PZ extra 300 to practice on?

Cheers
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 09:41 PM
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Pennsylvania
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Originally Posted by shung1 View Post
Hey mate, would that be the same size landing gear as the carbon z yak from e-flite?
It actually is CZ Yak gear, wheel pants and all(painted orange)

Flew again today with the big gear, still no real problems in the air, although the bigger pants seem to have more drag, at 2/3 throttle, the plane flies level upright, with a very slight dive inverted(need a hair bit of down elevator to fly level), at full throttle it is the opposite, dives a hair upright, but flip it over, and it flies hands off inverted. I was flying at the school, usually I takeoff and land from the parking lot, being the grass is kinda rough, and tough to keep from nosing over if I don't land perfectly. I flew a whole battery of nothing buy touch and goes, takeoffs and landings, probably a dozen in all, didn't noseover a single time. The best part is that I can swap the box stock gear on in about 15 seconds if I am flying from pavement, It's lighter, and looks better.
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MercerMaggot View Post
I've been hand launching mine, but have broken 2 props so far. Even with a (relatively) gentle landing, if the prop happens to be sticking towards the ground it will snap off every time. This will happen even with a heavier glow style prop. You might get 50 flights without this happening, or just a couple.

I got lazy on a hand launch on the weekend and plowed it into the ground at WOT. The entire front engine mount section ripped out and the tail snapped. Easily fixed. I reglued the undercarraige plate/supports so I'll see how long this lasts for wheeled take offs/landings.
I am taking a random shot at this. I think the Extra prop freewheels when the power is off, and I think there is a setting in the ESC to apply a brake to the prop. If I remember and understood right the motor will stop in the same position each time, so if you align you prop horizontal it will always stop that way. You might want to check the manual for the ESC online.

A friend has plane that is the same size without gear, and the prop always seems to stop close to horiz. Its not a PZ plane and its been a while since I've seen it so I could be mistaken.

HTH
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 10:59 PM
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Joined Jan 2011
133 Posts
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Originally Posted by alucard0822 View Post
It actually is CZ Yak gear, wheel pants and all(painted orange)

Flew again today with the big gear, still no real problems in the air, although the bigger pants seem to have more drag, at 2/3 throttle, the plane flies level upright, with a very slight dive inverted(need a hair bit of down elevator to fly level), at full throttle it is the opposite, dives a hair upright, but flip it over, and it flies hands off inverted. I was flying at the school, usually I takeoff and land from the parking lot, being the grass is kinda rough, and tough to keep from nosing over if I don't land perfectly. I flew a whole battery of nothing buy touch and goes, takeoffs and landings, probably a dozen in all, didn't noseover a single time. The best part is that I can swap the box stock gear on in about 15 seconds if I am flying from pavement, It's lighter, and looks better.

Running the 12x6 prop, did you upgrade your esc at all? I am running the 12x6 prop and was told to be carefull as it pumps out about 40amps and the stock esc is only 30amp. Have had about 6 flights with 12x6 prop running at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle most of the time and esc dosen't seem to get even warm.
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