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Old Jun 28, 2010, 09:07 PM
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turbine trainer recommendation, please

Hi,

I've enjoyed RC flying for a few years now, and now I'm considering eventually adding a turbine plane to my collection. I know that turbines are usually expensive in terms of both time and money, so I don't just want to just jump into the hobby on a whim.

Could you please recommend some electric ducted fans that may be a good bridge to a turbine powered craft? Is this a silly question because turbines are totally different beasts? Would you recommend practicing with a larger EDF or going straight for a turbine trainer model?

With either an EDF or turbine, I'm looking for a reliable model, but probably nothing top-shelf since budget is a consideration.

-Zack
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Old Jun 28, 2010, 10:43 PM
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Burlington, WA.
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I'm "training" with this: http://www.hobby-lobby.com/eurofighter_496377_prd1.htm

I fly a lot of high-wing loaded war birds and stuff too. That helps.
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Old Jul 03, 2010, 10:47 PM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined Mar 2006
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Hi Zack, You can transition straight to turbines once you have had some retract and flap experience in my opinion. Ideally larger heaver loaded glow/gas warbirds offer a good preparation. One of the better options now available is a prop aircraft such as the new KMP/ESM Pilatus PC- 9 & 21, after all these are a 1/5 scale version of a "real" prop-jet trainer and has probably the closest flight envelope and systems complexities you will find...

EDF can be near as expensive to get into as turbines unless you stick to the relatively smaller less complex system equipped models. You have to consider size comparison EDF v Turbine and associated costs involved and there is not a lot of difference once you start looking at 6kg thrust upward systems and airframes...

One of the best "transition" first jets when you do take the 'next step' to true turbines is the Kangaroo, Rookie, Velox, BobCat sport jets. F-15 and Hawk for example if you prefer scale. The Kingtech K80E (18 lb ) thrust turbine is currently the most economically priced "quality" brand turbine on the market. Once you are fully comfortable on these type models your ready for most anything turbine wise...

Cheers- Marty
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Old Jul 04, 2010, 03:20 PM
aeh
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Finland
Joined May 2007
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The Discovery Jet, by Dick Sarpolus. I am building one now, it is really simple, fixed gear. Inexpensive. I think parts cost maybe 300 . Electronics + turbine extra.
A
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Old Jul 05, 2010, 01:05 PM
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Thanks for you responses.

Based on the input so far, I'm thinking about skipping the large EDF's. The pilatus and hawk jet trainers and the discovery jet seem the most appealing models amongst those suggested. If I went with a Pilatus model, would you recommend that it is gas or glow, but not electric? So far I've only flown electric props and ducted fans, so I'd rather not spend the effort and money to get myself up to speed with liquid fuel piston engines since my interest lies in turbines.

Would it be foolish to go straight for a simpler, tamer turbine plane? Would you suggest starting from scratch on a new turbine (jet and airframe) or might it be worth it to save some money and get a used, ready to fly model? Any advice on buying used turbine models?
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Old Jul 05, 2010, 01:38 PM
aeh
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Another good idea might be the Super Reaper by Mick Reeves (will probably be my next jet), available in kit form, about 250 plus electronics and turbine. A delta with canard, they say it is easy to fly. If you can build from scratch then the Discovery might be for you. But it involves cutting foam cores. Otherwise really simple. I did not want to buy an expensive ARF, better to scratchbuild or buy a kit. You see, I wanted to make an inexpensive jet, and i think total cost will be around 2500 including everything. And no, you don't need expensive servos, I bought Spektrum DS821, I paid about 110 for 7 servos. Check out Power HD brand servos, powerful and inexpensive. A lot of guys said 'you must get brand XX servos' (about 100+ apiece) I did get a high quality rx though, Graupner DS20SMC but it wasn't very expensive. Hope this helps
A
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Old Jul 05, 2010, 05:14 PM
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rorrock's Avatar
Brisbane
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There is also the Jetmach range, or you could get a short kit of the zirolli turbinator..
There is an ARF version in the works as well at the moment..

Rob
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Old Jul 05, 2010, 07:54 PM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined Mar 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anything View Post
Thanks for you responses.

Based on the input so far, I'm thinking about skipping the large EDF's. The pilatus and hawk jet trainers and the discovery jet seem the most appealing models amongst those suggested. If I went with a Pilatus model, would you recommend that it is gas or glow, but not electric? So far I've only flown electric props and ducted fans, so I'd rather not spend the effort and money to get myself up to speed with liquid fuel piston engines since my interest lies in turbines.

Would it be foolish to go straight for a simpler, tamer turbine plane? Would you suggest starting from scratch on a new turbine (jet and airframe) or might it be worth it to save some money and get a used, ready to fly model? Any advice on buying used turbine models?

The Hawk is a safe bet if you want a scale first jet, there are a few others depending on your preferences such as the F-15. The Hawk and a few others (PC-21) have one big advantage and thats the trailing link gear struts which tend to be more robust and can handle some not so ideal landing/arrivals all the better. Not to mention the grass field ability with trailing link struts is a big advantage.

Engine wise for the ESM PC-21 I have seen electric, glow, gas and turbo prop versions all sucessfully flown. Its hard to find a better prop jet trainer that lets you transition from props to jets so smoothly in my opinion. KMP have just released a PC-9 also which is slightly smaller than the PC-21, either way these models would be my recommended choice as practise or transitonal models over the usually recommended WW2 warbirds. The trike gear and trailing link gear are big factors and you gain much experience with gear, flap and associated systems set up that will transition well to the jets....

If you have any doubts about your flying ability or experience, be it low flight time on suitable types or maybe just feeling a little intimidated jumping into the more costly jet models go with one of these types initially. Remember the full size (scale) PC-9 and PC-21 are designed for exactly this purpose also, training jet fighter pilots that are transitioning from props to jets....

Electric PC-21 :
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ight=kmp+pc+21

KMP PC-9 :
http://www.kmp.ca/product_info.php?p...861bd6d3415b7d
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Old Jul 05, 2010, 09:12 PM
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Burlington, WA.
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Originally Posted by anything View Post
Would it be foolish to go straight for a simpler, tamer turbine plane? Would you suggest starting from scratch on a new turbine (jet and airframe) or might it be worth it to save some money and get a used, ready to fly model? Any advice on buying used turbine models?
Not foolish at all, I'm going to start with one of these probably: http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/items/TBMSHOKJET.html
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Old Jul 06, 2010, 08:43 PM
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Thanks for the continued suggestions. I'm getting more excited about getting a turbine since it sounds doable. At the moment, the PC-21 (electric) or a simple, high-wing turbine trainer like the shockjet or jetmach seems like the best option. Checking out the threads that deal with these specific models seems like a good next step.

I noticed that there is an RC jet rally next month that is not too far from me (http://sites.google.com/site/wachusettbarnstormers/), so I'll probably attend that before making any purchases even though it means I'm going to have to wait a while longer.

The biggest question remaining in my mind is whether I should start shopping around for a used plane and/or engine.
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Old Jul 06, 2010, 09:01 PM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined Mar 2006
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Originally Posted by anything View Post
Thanks for the continued suggestions. I'm getting more excited about getting a turbine since it sounds doable. At the moment, the PC-21 (electric) or a simple, high-wing turbine trainer like the shockjet or jetmach seems like the best option. Checking out the threads that deal with these specific models seems like a good next step.

I noticed that there is an RC jet rally next month that is not too far from me (http://sites.google.com/site/wachusettbarnstormers/), so I'll probably attend that before making any purchases even though it means I'm going to have to wait a while longer.

The biggest question remaining in my mind is whether I should start shopping around for a used plane and/or engine.



Ideally and in your case its probably better going new as your not too sure what to look out for unless of course you know the seller well.... Do attend a jet meet or two absolutely before purchasing anything if you can and ask around and see what the guys in your region are using and recommending and ask why??? ask them about regional service experiences and service costs for the various turbine brands also given your location... You cannot do to much research at this stage of the game. You will in the end be all the wiser and less likely to be disappointed....

In the meantime keep the questions coming, more than happy to offer thoughts and opinions on it all


Cheers- Marty
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Old Jul 07, 2010, 02:19 AM
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Zack, my suggestion is get yourself larger 90mm EDF foamie like FLYFLY/F4, fit it with 3-3.6kw, 8S set up and you get real feel for a jet. Forget prop trainers, I assume you are already experienced its totaly diferent to fly thrust pushers, good luck, you'll love it, Joe.
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Old Jul 07, 2010, 02:58 AM
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Sydney, Australia
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Originally Posted by jofro View Post
Zack, my suggestion is get yourself larger 90mm EDF foamie like FLYFLY/F4, fit it with 3-3.6kw, 8S set up and you get real feel for a jet. Forget prop trainers, I assume you are already experienced its totaly diferent to fly thrust pushers, good luck, you'll love it, Joe.
Damn the military got it totally wrong eh, should stuff all those pesky newbie jet pilots in a foam home built job instead. Iam guessing you have zero stick time on the PC-21
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Old Jul 07, 2010, 04:55 AM
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Damn the military got it totally wrong eh, should stuff all those pesky newbie jet pilots in a foam home built job instead. Iam guessing you have zero stick time on the PC-21
Marty,

A kangaroo or rookie or a velox for a turbine trainer is a mistake in my opinion.

The best results for newbie turbine fliers are without doubt with the boomerang, reaction, and in warbirds, the F15.

The wing loading on the former three lead them to being a 2nd purchase in my opinion.

There are heavy model inspectors in vic who wont even certify a velox, and i have heard of 3 being lost in one day.......food for thought.

Further to this, a prop plane with active wash over control surfaces will give an un turbine like plane experience, whereas a F4 on 8s will have many tendencies of a turbine without the cost.

PS loved your F22 at wang, mint.
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Old Jul 07, 2010, 07:36 PM
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Sydney, Australia
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Originally Posted by BpwrJet View Post
Marty,

A kangaroo or rookie or a velox for a turbine trainer is a mistake in my opinion.

The best results for newbie turbine fliers are without doubt with the boomerang, reaction, and in warbirds, the F15.

The wing loading on the former three lead them to being a 2nd purchase in my opinion.

There are heavy model inspectors in vic who wont even certify a velox, and i have heard of 3 being lost in one day.......food for thought.

Further to this, a prop plane with active wash over control surfaces will give an un turbine like plane experience, whereas a F4 on 8s will have many tendencies of a turbine without the cost.

PS loved your F22 at wang, mint.

Hmmm all valid points and I do agree, bottom line however and in my opinion is always determining anyones previous flying skill level prior to the inevitable question of what to recommend as a transition model type into fast jets ie turbines. The way Iam reading/interpretating this particular case with regard to Zack is in his first post he suggested he had been flying for a few years "only" so quite possibly may not have had the flight time logged on larger heavier retract flap equipped types such as warbirds. Retract systems install and flap flight management is really a must more so than wash over control surfaces.... That is part of the transition factor yes but not knowing if Zack has had these experiences dictates my suggestion in his case.

Re- Turbine Trainers. In my opinion again I would suggest to anyone that they learn the basics ie retracts and flaps, plus handling a more complex, heavier prop type well before taking on turbines. So the Boomerang type is not an "ideal" transitional airframe due to its soft more "trainer" like forgiving flight envelope. If transitioning to jets with warbird or PC-21 type experience the Roo, Rookie, Velox, Bandit, Hot Spot, BobCat, Lightning types are all going to teach you more and again prepare you for fast scale jets MUCH better than the Boomer and "trainer" types can do...... Bottom line is Iam assuming here that Zack like most coming into jets aspires to fast and or scale types ie F-15, F-16, F-86 etc etc. Of course there are going to be various opinions and most are very valid arguments.

My suggested order of the R/C flight learning process progressing when experience is gained to ultimately turbine jets is simply this-

1. Learn to fly R/C (Computer sim that uses same Tx as your model)
2. Seek a quality flying club to join and find yourself an experienced mentor.
3. Select proven quality/recommend equipment and an entry level basic prop trainer (electric or glow) and of high wing design type. Basic 4 function control design ie engine, aileron, rudder, elevator. Ideally trike undercarriage...
3. Progress onto to a larger similar type and when comfortable then onto a low wing sport model still retaining fixed trike gear and fly this till you are 100% confident in all areas.
4. Select a decent heavier loaded and larger ie .60 + glow sized low wing sport or scale model, maybe a tail dragger with retracts and flaps ie Mustang, Spitfire OR PC-21 type. Stick with these until 100% confident...

At this point you should of been flying for quite some time and now the question arrises "I want to fly jets" I have the stick time on retract, flap equipped model types as above have been flying for many years all sorts of models what is recommended???

Based on what in my opinion is the experience level required to step into turbine models my recommendations are thus made...

Sorry the Boomer in my opinion just does not prepare you well enough for those scale types especially compared to Roos and Rookies etc. A trainer the Boomer is yes a transitional jet hmmmm I just dont see any advantage going to a comparatively slow flying VERY forgiving type (Boomer) if you can already fly those more complex and less forgiving warbird types, I think your ready for a more "transitional" type of airframe ideally AND with an exposed turbine for easy access, the Boomer does not have that feature either by the way.... If you have ever flown a Roo or Rookie you can really appreciate the broader flight envelope 20-200+ MPH and also intricacies of take-off and landing this type that benefits you tremendously when you progress to say an F-16 of F-18 etc. Going from Boomer to F-18!!!! hmmmm no way...

With larger warbird and/or PC-21 stick time you can literally should be capable of going straight to an F-15, F-22, F-86 etc no worries and I think most guys are looking at these types as their preferred goal

Nothing wrong with the Velox its an extremely good flyer and very well proven performer, dont believe all that you hear in most cases of lost models regardless of type it is pilot error....

Sorry I do not believe you in regard to any recognized and MAAA appointed "TURBINE" model inspectors that will NOT certify the Velox thats 100% rubbish....

Here is the Velox, make up your own mind-

Fei Bao Velox at Jets over Kentucky (3 min 51 sec)
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