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Old Oct 30, 2010, 03:31 PM
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Portland, Oregon
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Helicrush...

Ha, Good stuff and yes I agree regarding the mixes... They can be a blast to experiment with as we attempt perfecting our Heli and Planes flight characteristics... Some will work great and some will leave us asking why they failed to mix the way we thought being either too much effect or too little but as I said earlier go for it... There are so many ways to improve flight and as crazy as it sounds that simple little speck of tri-flow on all the Heli's ball's made a really noticeable impact and not just in how quiet she became... I also hit as many bearings as I could access with just a speck... I've used it on all my Heli's as have so many others... They fly fine without it in most cases but they fly very nice with it and if put on light you don't even know it's there... The stuff is amazing in and of itself and I'm not sure I've ever used a lubricant as effective on anything let alone Heli's...I've tried most of them including many synthetics and silicones... I heard a lot of people saying such great stuff about it and I thought an oil is an oil and whether it's a cooking oil or sewing machine oil to even Vaseline jelly it will do what we need to get things slippery but this tri-flow is obviously in a class of it's own...

I scared myself a bit last night when it was almost dark as I took off with my 120SR off my deck after making a couple pushrod changes so I could finally center my DX7 trims as I wrote yesterday... The trees were dead still all around my back yard and we have many tall fir trees in all the neighboring yards easily 100' tall and above... I've been flying my 120SR lately really high and this time I just nailed her throttle and watched her shoot up, way up... I don't have an accurate idea how high really but she went up farther than I wanted and easily 1/3rd higher than in the past and it happened accidentally because as we back off the throttle we have to pretty much guess if she is leveling off, descending, or still climbing and mine was still climbing when I wanted her to be descending lightly as I did big circuits above the 3 or 4 neighboring homes... She became a speck way too fast and it was really getting dark fast... Without simply cutting the throttle which I also do all the time and where she just free falls and then you hit her throttle to about half at about 50' off the deck and she instantly stops so nice in a hover, instead I tried to fly her down gradually and like one of my gliders in a thermal she was catching easily a 6mph breeze up there and she was still climbing instead of coming down... The wind up there was not happening down at the 100' level I usually fly and she started quickly drifting downwind to the south... Without panicking I hit her throttle and luckily her orientation was still pointing toward me and the north and she headed back toward me... With that motion I was able to give her a bunch of down elevator and started to see her coming down... I'd have to back off her throttle as my circuits turned downwind but once I made my turns back toward myself I bring her down further and within a minute, and still without my DX7 timer beeping at the 6 minute mark, she was finally at my normal 100' level and from there she made her normal neat looking nose-in landing at my feet...

Dang I love this 120SR but I have to stop this risky flying and keep her low and close which was fine for so long until she became so comfortable in flight I started taking her higher and higher... Across the street at the new park it's fine because it's 88 acres of open ground above all 5 soccer fields but these little 120'x 100' home lots just don't cut it when you fly outside the safety zone...

Sorry so long...
Happy Weekend...
bnick
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 09:59 PM
The wheels touch down FIRST??
BJ64's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Jun 2009
23,960 Posts
I think I've figured out why I can fly my SR120 indoors ok, but it becomes quite a handful outdoors.

Indoors, I'm only flying at very low throttle, seeing as I can't really go much higher than about 6 feet or so.

Outdoors, of course, I can give it much more Welly to get it up to a decent height - and more throttle means a much higher headspeed (I must be more or less only idling during indoor flights). The increase in headspeed seems to make it really bank to starboard, which I then have to correct via some left aileron.

And whenever I stop doing one thing on it, the Bird seems to want to violently correct itself - which is what I have observed and posted about before when flying indoors. For example, if I keep my movements minor and gentle indoors, I can walk the Heli around the room, but as soon as I try to do anything with a bit more gusto, I find it difficult to come back to a slow and gentle hover.

Translating that to outdoor flight - with about twice as much throttle - and the phenomena become amplified.

I'll need to play around with a few settings to find out what's going on - this "stop what your'e doing, having the Helo correct, then over-correct, and then me trying to counter this via the sticks" ends up with me fighting the Bird and basically losing control - usually culminating in a death-dive...

BJ
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 10:39 PM
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RCchomp's Avatar
Sacramento
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Originally Posted by BJ64 View Post
I think I've figured out why I can fly my SR120 indoors ok, but it becomes quite a handful outdoors.

Indoors, I'm only flying at very low throttle, seeing as I can't really go much higher than about 6 feet or so.

Outdoors, of course, I can give it much more Welly to get it up to a decent height - and more throttle means a much higher headspeed (I must be more or less only idling during indoor flights). The increase in headspeed seems to make it really bank to starboard, which I then have to correct via some left aileron.

And whenever I stop doing one thing on it, the Bird seems to want to violently correct itself - which is what I have observed and posted about before when flying indoors. For example, if I keep my movements minor and gentle indoors, I can walk the Heli around the room, but as soon as I try to do anything with a bit more gusto, I find it difficult to come back to a slow and gentle hover.

Translating that to outdoor flight - with about twice as much throttle - and the phenomena become amplified.

I'll need to play around with a few settings to find out what's going on - this "stop what your'e doing, having the Helo correct, then over-correct, and then me trying to counter this via the sticks" ends up with me fighting the Bird and basically losing control - usually culminating in a death-dive...

BJ
I have similar difficulty outdoors, but not giving up yet. I use the "low" speed setting indoors, which really give is more control. Hope to get better outdoors and achieve higher altitudes - and I'm confident I will - it really depends on the winds.
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 11:46 PM
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Portland, Oregon
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BJ64...

Hi, Hey don't belittle your indoor flying as it takes concentration and prudent stick management to precisely place your Heli where you want her... The rebounding and other effects sometimes caused by more assertive maneuvers are just an expected trait of FP's which because of low head speed, variable throttle, torque, etc, often cause porpoising, or rebounding jumps backwards, or even sideways... As others have written these are in part due to our variable throttles, too much alcohol, and other man made factors I can't even remember now... CP's which have their own unusual flight events which can almost stop a human heart too...

My grandkids originally wanted to set up indoor obstacle courses for the 3 of us to fly at the same time, each with our Heli's, mCX-S300, mCX, and me with my mSR... We'd fly off a living room coffee table, then land on a kitchen counter, then off to the dining room to land on the table, then into the family room and all around it to come back and land back on the kitchen table, then back to the kitchen counter, then back to the coffee table, ha...

I went along with them and wasn't all that excited to begin with but the kids wanted the flights judged by my wife and Daughter for accuracy of landings and takeoffs and who could do it in the fastest time... That last requirement was the one that really made it fun because I being the least serious of the group would always attempt to crash into one or both of them after about the 5th contest...

Anyway it was this indoor flying for accuracy which stuck with me and it is a great way to perfect, circles, figure eights foreword and reversed, and do accurate nose-in practice...

All of this indoor experience you are gaining will help so much in gaining those automatic thumb to brain reactions where you are just flying and talking to others at the same time... I never dreamed through the frustration and crashes that I've had after a year and a half (I'm obviously a very slow learner) that I could really fly these things as I am now including my Trex... It is so slow a learning process but over about a 2 month period it all finally started to come together...

Even though I can really fly now, this 120SR has really helped make those automatic reactions between thumbs and brain happen even better since I fly her everyday for at least 8 batteries... There have been days where I'd only fly her for 4 batteries but these last 3 weeks it's been around 6 to 8 most everyday... As with any Heli as the flights start adding up so are your automatic reactions in any position... I still have never done a loop or 3D so that shows you I'm still far from being proficient but I can do FF and don't hardly crash these days and that in itself is a good thing, ha...

Indoor flying very much has it's place and flying value, except when as I wrote a few months ago, my grandson Ethan and I were racing through the house during our Spring National Championships, while my daughter was cooking in the kitchen, and my wife was sitting in the family room reading, when in a fast tight turn I bumped into Ethan's Heli and I bounced my mSR at 3/4 throttle into my wife Mary's pretty long hair... Ethan and I were yelled at to leave the family room even with our apologies, and it took daughter Shan over 20 minutes with scissors to cut and unwind my wifes hair from both of my mSR's servos, swash, flybar, rotors and worst of all my beloved tail motor... Luckily my mSr came through it with no damage...

Happy Weekend...
bnick
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 12:06 AM
The wheels touch down FIRST??
BJ64's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
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Originally Posted by bnick2k8 View Post
BJ64...

... Luckily my mSr came through it with no damage...

Happy Weekend...
bnick
Yes, but the subsequent tongue-lashing and resultant trauma will haunt you for life...

But seriously - I find it a real handful in getting the SR120 to come back into shape after completing a move with a fair bit of throttle on. For example, just stopping after going FF at 3/4 throttle for 20 or so yards, and she seems to rear up like a Stallion - and then get a mind of it's own. I've sat back and watched it a few times now, without applying any stick input - just to observe and figure out what HELL it's trying to do to itself. It'll often pitch violently the other way, more often-than-not bank heavily, and sometimes even piro - all on it's own.

Ahh thank ahh just may has myself a ma-sheen what Da Debbil hiself has po-zessed...

LoL

BJ
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 01:35 AM
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BJ64...

Wow that last part is excellent I gotta read it to my wife I laughed my butt off...

Actually the first time I noticed what you are experiencing was with my mSR and it was bad and I could hardly recover from it and sometimes didn't... For me I know it was a part I replaced and it may well have been rotors which were not balanced plus the main thing I remembered which threw her into some strange behaviors was my swash separating and they gave us a little red tool with the mSR's that you would put between the head and swash and you would raise up the swash in which it pushed the top of the swash back down and properly distanced all the parts to factory spec and man did she always fly great after that and especially after a hard crash... Seems I also had an out of shape or balance blade grip too... By mixing and swapping spare parts you may remove it if it is excessive but to a small degree it is the nature of an FP which one has to learn as they told me to counter with the correct opposite control... My opposite controls for quite a while were over control which amplified the problem in the opposite side of the swing making me have to correct that one to save her... I have really come to balance my main rotors a lot even on a small Heli like this one... I'm always sanding their leading and trailing edges to get them perfect on my digital scale... Balanced rotors and even tail rotor free of nicks sure has always made for a trustworthy vibration free hover to act as a baseline to test other areas that need tuning..

I haven't heard of anyone with our 120SR's having a separated swash plate yet and if guys are squeezing them back together to get them flying good again... Also I've noticed on several Heli's that there is a sweet spot where both the elevator and aileron servos seem to work best and if I go screwing too much on pushrod adjustments to center more my trims I can actually introduce some of the behaviors you have mentioned when you would think that would only fine tune her hovers more precisely... Somehow my playing with the pushrod lengths too much affected the 4 or 5in1's mixing... It has happened on a few models and was unexpected even to where I had to put them back closer to where they were... Just some thoughts there right or wrong...

One of the best sites for a sequence of beginners training lessons that was recommended to me were the series called:
RADD'S SCHOOL OF ROTARY FLIGHT
http://www.dream-models.com/eco/flying-index.html

Also I'd recommend, as so many recommended to me, the whole series of free Bob Finless Heli videos... Many of these are for full CP Heli's and their theory of build and operation but they are so helpful... I viewed the one on proper head setup several times before building my entire Trex 450 and it never took a click of trim on her maiden and actually never has since...

As we know there is so much good info on the web for training and theory... I'm constantly going back to learn and review...

bnick
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 02:26 AM
The wheels touch down FIRST??
BJ64's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Jun 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnick2k8 View Post
BJ64...

BJ64...

Wow that last part is excellent I gotta read it to my wife I laughed my butt off...bnick
No... seriously...this thing is possessed - I'm convinced of it

As I was saying, indoors, she tends to fly real sweet - so long as I maintain slow movements. No probs in going forward/rearward with Elevator, left or right with Aileron.

But, if I for example scoot forward 2 metres, and stop, it will rear-up the nose like a Horse - which I understand as the Heli now trying to correct itself. But it doesn't stop there - it'll start to carry-on like a pork chop. It might dip right and/or swing the tail around. It's almost as if it's over-corrected itself, then starts to try to correct that, and over-corrects again.

The only way I've been able to forcibly bring it back is to do a couple of quick piro's. That seems to rattle it's cage, and it starts to behave again.

Outdoors, it's even more exaggerated - just giving it some decent throttle to get it up to, say, 20-30 feet seems to upset something internally, and it's off with the fairies doing it's own thing. I end up spending most of the flight trying to bring it back to a stable hover to bring it back down again - a battle I seldom win, as it ends up rolling over on me.

I actually went in yesterday fully inverted - she just flipped over at about 20 feet, and that was the end of it. Down she came. Now I do realise that there was probably a bit of a breeze going on just above tree-height, but I don't think that's the cause of this erratic behaviour. It does similar things indoors, only not as pronounced - I'm guessing because I'm only using a small amount of throttle.

Yet, providing I do everything slow and smooth, I can get into a hands-free hover indoors quite easily, so if there is/was something fundamentally wrong with the set-up, I'm guessing I'd never be able to get to the hover.

I might just have to have a wander through the myriad of menu's on my Tx, just to make sure there's nothing being done in the background that I don't know about. From memory, I've set it up in much the same way as my mSR is set up - some Expo and reduced throws on low rates, and the Gyro switch set to 70% or whatever it is (though I'm pretty sure that's only needed when flying with the stock Tx to engage/disengage hi/lo rates, which I control via my A/R/E rate switches on my DSX9)...

BJ
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 03:00 AM
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Portland, Oregon
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BJ64...

I'm not sure which Tx you have but once in a while I have reused a model position in my TX that I thought was totally cleared with the Data Reset button on my DX7, but it kept some data from the old model and it obviously was a corrupted model position as my mSR did all kinds of wrong movements... I created a new model did everything identical and then my mSR flew perfect...

More important though is that on these little FP's, using a Heli Model instead of a Plane Model sometimes causes bigtime problems as the Tx tries to Swash mix and it fights the 4\5in1 which is also trying to Swash mix... Even setting my Heli Model as a single servo didn't help so per others advice I Reset the same model and instead I assigned her as a Plane and she flew perfect and mixed way better than in Heli mode, go figure... Other FP's have worked fine as a Heli Model but most people have told me set them as an Aircraft Model so the Heli's 4,5in1 with do the mixing...

I just went out and looked at my DX7 models and my mSR, 120SR, and HoneyBee FPV2 are all set as Aircraft models which have no swash mixing , throttle\pitch curves, or Heli parameters... As Aircraft models their 4,5in1's mix perfectly... My Blade SR CP, and Trex of course are Heli Models...

If this doesn't correct your problem you need to email or call Horizon as they are super for replacing anything not right on their products... What you explained is way wrong and not the way she should be flying... When she is trimmed right at 20' you should be able to fly her up and down your yard 50' with hardly any elevator or aileron and make all your circuit turns just with her rudder she's that stable...

Let us know what you find... You need to be having fun with her not this...
bnick
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 03:03 AM
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BJ64...

Sorry but I just re-read your last thread and it's obvious you have her set in your Tx as a Heli Model if you have Gyro gain settings... Change your model type to Aircraft and watch how nice she behaves...

bnick
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 06:41 AM
The wheels touch down FIRST??
BJ64's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Jun 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnick2k8 View Post
BJ64...

Sorry but I just re-read your last thread and it's obvious you have her set in your Tx as a Heli Model if you have Gyro gain settings... Change your model type to Aircraft and watch how nice she behaves...

bnick
Kewl - I'll give that a try in the morning.

I'll create a new model, set it to 'Aircraft', and hit reset as well.

We'll see where she goes from there.

Ta...

BJ
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 06:46 AM
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Norway
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bnick2k8,

Flying the 120SR outside in wind a few times, I experienced exactly the same thing as you, different wind layers stacked on top of each other. Where I stood it was more or less calm, and I sent the 120 straight up, feeling too confident. When like 20 meters up, suddenly she went sideways at great speed. I let off throttle, but she kept drifting away, fast. I cut the throttle as I was not able to fly her back on short balls. Ended up with a long walk...while pushing cyclic now and then, to hear where on earth she had ended up. This wind layer thing has surprised me two times now. It is not a big problem as there is not many trees where I fly, but I know for shure I need better shoes for umm...recovery operations. Plus I have to be more careful just popping her up fast. I also tend to forget there is mucho more lift available over that grass field, compared to my living room. Carpet thermals are not much to brag about...

BJ,

Well, I also still fight with the pendulum effect, and I guess I am over-correcting. Suddenly I have some wild forward/backward swinging, and I try to stop it. Instead I amplify it. Damn Pilot Induced Oscillations. I know my thumbs will do the right thing finally, but I am not there yet. I just have to keep on throwing my mSR into this effect again and again, until my hands do the right thing, hopefully. I have just learnt that letting off on the throttle helps a bit, but still have a long way to go. I hope the weather will allow me to try this outside, as doing this inside (even with the mSR), can be downright scary.

One thing with the mSR's, even on low rates: A little aileron is fine. But if I use more than half way stick throw, it becomes like a zero/full deflection, and she goes sideways at scary speeds. Might be the aileron servo arm. I have adjusted them on both my mSR's to get a stable hover without the need to trim (two turns up). But then I can see there is not enough threads into the plastic link, and the link becomes wobbly; there is no precision. If I can get my hands on better links...the default ones are a tad too weak me thinks.

PS(1): Looking forward to hear how airplane mode works for you. I'll do some testing myself here.

PS(2): You guys mention Radd's. I have read it all, but not done it all...but I find myself doing a lot of the Radd's stuff more and more, my own way. Especially creating a "bounding box" and keep my heli inside it, helps to avoid crashing while still learning to control the heli. And as long as I stick to that box, there is always room for a controlled recovery, mostly "autorotation" landings.

Dang, sitting here watching the trees move...leaves falling off. Too windy...better keep inside...dont want my Blades falling off!
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 08:49 AM
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Australia, SA, Adelaide
Joined May 2010
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I just finished four batts on the 120 using the dx6i,and i love it the heli flys so much better on the new tx,i have no need for mixing out the right hand veering,it is barely noticable on the dx6i and the little bit of left aileron to counter it is more effective on the dx6i,overall i just fell in love with my 120 againbut it must go through one more test the loss of signal test,if it passes that i will be truly happy about purchasing the 120,i must say a better tx makes all the difference.
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 10:14 AM
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Norway
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I just flew outside, 120SR, DX6i, links on the long balls, high rates and windy. Kept flying low, and made quite a few decent circles, at good speed, even did some nose-up funnels to my surprise. Saved a few bad situations by making 180 degrees piros. Had no crashes, except from one controlled crash, to get out of the way of other pilots flying planes. Lotsa fun to see them chasing a protesting crow...

I need to get more batteries for shure...can't have these short flight sessions! Don't dare to fly at home yet, too many kids, cats, trees and telephone lines. Don't like the thought of knocking on the neighbours doors asking for lost helicopters either
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 04:27 PM
I'll try to fly anything.....
nr Leeds UK
Joined Aug 2010
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I have to confess........

I first got my 120sr in September for a birthday present. After learning to hover it without crashing it every time.....my that seems ages ago now ...... I took it down to our allotment area for a flight one balmy late summer evening flight.
I could fly out over the plants and turn back towards myself and do it quite slow and controlled, great I thought finally cracking this at last.
Six'th battery in and around again a bit higher this time, up to roof height of the recreation centre and back ......blinking heck, big thermal, up up and away, try to bring it back towards me but its a tiny spot now. cut power......yes it's dropping .....just beyond that line of trees about 50 yards away in that large garden. One of the few round here with a huge 2 or 3 acre garden, it must have got over the trees and dropped in there !!

It's November tomorrow and the leaves are coming off the trees more each day but still no sign of it at all. At the time I spent a few hours looking far and wide to no avail. Leafleted houses no luck there either.
I still look when go walking past the area but no sign. Unfortunately there are some really large conifers 50/60 ft ...probably on the top or stuck in one of those.

Fortunately I was allowed to purchase another as I was so peeved at it's demise ! Also bought another TX... DX6i. At least if it happens again I have got a "manly" transmitter with me to go door knocking
Anyway that's my confession and it feels good to have owned up to my loss.
Hopefully a heads up to others about high flying amongst trees !

Still loving flying the 120sr but I am always aware it can get very small very quick and at least in my experience also has excellent camouflage
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 04:35 PM
The wheels touch down FIRST??
BJ64's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Jun 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newtoblade120sr View Post
I first got my 120sr in September for a birthday present...)
Hopefully your lil Birdie has been nesting somewhere safe, and you get to find it again real soon.

I know from losing a Plank that where you think it went in, and where you finally find it can be hundreds of yards different. Even more so if you're not real sure where it went down to start with. "Over there - somewhere" can be quite a search area LoL.

So.... fingers crossed that you get reunited with your AWOL 120 in the not too distant future

Though, if it's stuck up in a Conifer somewhere, it might just have found a near permanent roost...

BJ
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